• Friendly reminder: The politics section is a place where a lot of differing opinions are raised. You may not like what you read here but it is someone's opinion. As long as the debate is respectful you are free to debate freely. Also, the views and opinions expressed by forum members may not necessarily reflect those of GBAtemp. Messages that the staff consider offensive or inflammatory may be removed in line with existing forum terms and conditions.

[POLL] U.S. Presidential Election 2016

Whom will/would you vote for?

  • Laurence Kotlikoff (Independent)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Tom Hoefling (America's Party)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Mike Maturen (American Solidarity Party)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    659
Status
Not open for further replies.

Foxi4

Endless Trash
Global Moderator
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
30,844
Trophies
3
Location
Gaming Grotto
XP
29,930
Country
Poland
Ever head of a thing called latent racism?
Lol, I love how you got all your facts mixed around and fucked up. In case you didn't notice, Trump is the one with the fascist and authoritarian ideas.
Hey guys, I'm a racist apparently. On account of being white. This is great, we're all learning new things! Can we also establish if I'm a homophobe because I'm straight and a sexist because I'm a man? Please, continue - I'm on a journey of self-discovery here.
 

XDel

Author of Alien Breed: Projekt Odamex
Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2012
Messages
2,714
Trophies
2
Age
49
Location
Another Huxleyian Dystopia
XP
3,549
Country
United States
In regards to these people who say they want to kill them selves because people don't accept their Madonna collection, and that people who have had sex with the same sex are more prone to suicide really need to get out more; that or be more honest.

I live in a quiet, quaint, half progressive, half conservative, college town in "Middle America", and no one gives shit to the local gays, and the two (friends of mine) who run the local salon are making a killing!!! Very nice guys too.
 

TotalInsanity4

GBAtemp Supreme Overlord
Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2014
Messages
10,800
Trophies
0
Location
Under a rock
XP
9,814
Country
United States
Aghh, the great god of "experts say", "polls suggest", and "computer simulations state"...

As I stated before, if such information could be predicted they could use it for more useful thing, like extending and saving lives, preparing a child to deal with tendencies of hostility and what not, and so on. Assuming there was such a science that could gauge one's tastes, habits, and the like, which manifest as we grow and interact with our environment through the 5 senses, and thus interpret the world as such, unless we've some how grown up devoid of any external conditioning or at the very least, minimal, which is near impossible in this media age, and thus making it near impossible to conduct such a study, as the purity needed in conditions would be boarder line illegal if not illegal by today's standards, and certainly would not please the humanists.

This brings to mind another aspect of all of this business, and that is the technologies (and their histories) of polls, and statistics, and how they have been applied, especially through out the 20th century and beyond.

Unless one was well on this origin story in the 19th century on into the early 20th century, one might find it ludicrous to suggest that the modern humanist movement has a common history of the theory of black inferiority and of black extermination. Perhaps you have heard of Eugenics? Perhaps you have heard of Charles Darwin's cousin, Francis Galton? Or how about his friend who first developed the idea of an "IQ" test; Lewis Terman?

How about the fact that everything we know about one another is generally reduced to mere yes or no questions?

Mr. Neil Postman can probably explain this better than I...


Typically, pollsters ask questions that will elicit yes or no answers. Is it necessary to point out that such answers do not give a robust meaning to the phrase “public opinion”? Were you, for example, to answer “No” to the question “Do you think the drug problem can be reduced by government programs?” one would hardly know much of interest or value about your opinion. But allowing you to speak or write at length on the matter would, of course, rule out using statistics. The point is that the use of statistics in polling changes the meaning of “public opinion” as dramatically as television changes the meaning of “political debate.” In the American Technopoly, public opinion is a yes or no answer to an unexamined question.

"Generally, polling ignores what people know about the subjects they are queried on. In a culture that is not obsessed with measuring and ranking things, this omission would probably be regarded as bizarre. But let us imagine what we would think of opinion polls if the questions came in pairs, indicating what people “believe” and what they “know” about the subject. If I may make up some figures, let us suppose we read the following: “The latest poll indicates that 72 percent of the American public believes we should withdraw economic aid from Nicaragua. Of those who expressed this opinion, 28 percent thought Nicaragua was in central Asia, 18 percent thought it was an island near New Zealand, and 27.4 percent believed that ‘Africans should help themselves,’ obviously confusing Nicaragua with Nigeria. Moreover, of those polled, 61.8 percent did not know that we give economic aid to Nicaragua, and 23 percent did not know what ‘economic aid’ means.” Were pollsters inclined to provide such information, the prestige and power of polling would be considerably reduced. Perhaps even congressmen, confronted by massive ignorance, would invest their own understandings with greater trust."
- Neil Postman ( Technopoly 1992)

He goes on elsewhere in his book to note this observation:

I have been in the presence of a group of United States congressmen who were gathered to discuss, over a period of two days, what might be done to make the future of America more survivable and, if possible, more humane. Ten consultants were called upon to offer perspectives and advice. Eight of them were pollsters. They spoke of the “trends” their polling uncovered; for example, that people were no longer interested in the women’s movement, did not regard environmental issues as of paramount importance, did not think the “drug problem” was getting worse, and so on. It was apparent, at once, that these polling results would become the basis of how the congressmen thought the future should be managed. The ideas the congressmen had (all men, by the way) receded to the background. Their own perceptions, instincts, insights, and experience paled into irrelevance. Confronted by “social scientists,” they were inclined to do what the “trends” suggested would satisfy the populace.
That's a Glorious Wall you got there. I might actually get around to reading it when I have time later today. Although I should warn you, more text doesn't necessarily equal a better argument
 

Pikm

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2016
Messages
687
Trophies
0
XP
2,032
Country
United States
Hey guys, I'm a racist apparently. On account of being white. This is great, we're all learning new things! Can we also establish if I'm a homophobe because I'm straight and a sexist because I'm a man? Please, continue - I'm on a journey of self-discovery here.
Honestly I don't even know why you care about American politics because according to your user card you live in POLAND.
 

Foxi4

Endless Trash
Global Moderator
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
30,844
Trophies
3
Location
Gaming Grotto
XP
29,930
Country
Poland
Racism is actually exclusive to any group but white people in this world. It's really not about white people can't experience racism, it's more accurate to say white people WILL NEVER experience racism.
If you're white, you can't be discriminated against, noted. Genius troll or idiot? I'll let everyone decide for themselves.
 
  • Like
Reactions: vayanui8

Lacius

Well-Known Member
OP
Member
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
18,099
Trophies
3
XP
18,338
Country
United States
I respectfully disagree. We live in an Econonomical Darwinism called capitalism. If you deny me service for being "group a", I'll simply take myself to a business that doesn't. Then I'll be sure to mention this prejudice to all my associates and colleagues. In capitalism, at the end of the day, the only color that counts is green. If you deny a group service, then your market becomes smaller, and you will likely suffer for that choice.
You're selectively ignoring the times discrimination doesn't cause a business to suffer. You're also ignoring the times discrimination helps a business.

America doesn't have any leaders, so I would chose trump, imagine the world with that evil socialist bitch named Hillary
Pray tell, why is socialism evil?
Regardless, Secretary Clinton is not a socialist.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TotalInsanity4

brickmii82

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2015
Messages
1,442
Trophies
1
Age
41
XP
2,930
Country
United States
White people fucked up the world. Explain why they didn't if you want to actually contribute to the discussion.
Well, let's see...
Einstein, Aristotle, Socrates, Curie, Da Vinci, John Nash, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, "the list goes on"
And Asians had a slave trade too douchebag.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Foxi4

Foxi4

Endless Trash
Global Moderator
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
30,844
Trophies
3
Location
Gaming Grotto
XP
29,930
Country
Poland
If you're white, you can't be discriminated against, noted. Genius troll or idiot? I'll let everyone decide for themselves.
Isolationism - more totalitarian ideology. I'm not allowed to be interested in the affairs of the world based on my nationality. Good background check, thanks for the ad hominen, I'll start sewing a star onto my clothing right away, mein Fuhrer. Which way to the camp, dear sir? I need to attone for the sins of my race, specifically some dudes from X-hundred years ago that I've never met. I brought my own gas, so no further expense is needed.
 

vayanui8

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
Messages
1,086
Trophies
0
XP
908
Country
United States
It's not radical to expect businesses providing public goods and services to provide goods and services to the public. History shows us what happens when businesses are allowed to arbitrarily discriminate. The right of the consumer to be able to get the same goods and services as the rest of the public outweighs the right of the business owner to arbitrarily withhold goods and services from specific groups of people.
Equality at the cost of freedom is not a form of equality I want to live under
 
  • Like
Reactions: Foxi4

Aurora Wright

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
1,550
Trophies
3
XP
4,518
Country
Italy
I respectfully disagree. We live in an Econonomical Darwinism called capitalism. If you deny me service for being "group a", I'll simply take myself to a business that doesn't. Then I'll be sure to mention this prejudice to all my associates and colleagues. In capitalism, at the end of the day, the only color that counts is green. If you deny a group service, then your market becomes smaller, and you will likely suffer for that choice.
So, assume I go to a party to some place, but I get denied service (it might be eating, or even entering) because the owners don't like me. Or assume during a trip I need to stop somewhere to sleep but I get denied service and this greatly inconveniences me because I'll have to go looking for some other place (and I'll probably pay more).
There are also even more serious examples: should a vegan surgeon be allowed to refuse a surgery because it involves swine heart valves? Or should a Jehovah's Witness surgeon be allowed to refuse all surgeries that involve transfusions? The list is infinite. If businesses and people were allowed to interrupt service at will, things would just not work (not counting the fact that the examples I mentioned above are the very definition of discrimination). It's impossible.
 

Foxi4

Endless Trash
Global Moderator
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
30,844
Trophies
3
Location
Gaming Grotto
XP
29,930
Country
Poland
So, assume I go to a party to some place, but I get denied service (it might be eating, or even entering) because the owners don't like me. Or assume during a trip I need to stop somewhere to sleep but I get denied service and this greatly inconveniences me because I'll have to go looking for some other place (and I'll probably pay more).
There are also even more serious examples: should a vegan surgeon be allowed to refuse a surgery because it involves swine heart valves? Or should a Jehovah's Witness surgeon be allowed to refuse all surgeries that involve transfusions? The list is infinite. If businesses and people were allowed to interrupt service at will, things would just not work (not counting the fact that the examples I mentioned above are the very definition of discrimination). It's impossible.
You can do business with whoever you like because it's your money on the line - the last thing you need is someone telling you how to run your own affairs. This might be mindblowing, but if a business owner is a racist asshole, now, this will be shocking so hold onto your seat, *take your business elsewhere* and do business with owners that support you - this will stimulate the market in and out of itself. Before long the racist will either be forced to serve customers or s/he'll be out of business. If you are a patient and you don't want a pig's valve in your heart, or a transfusion, for whatever goofy reason, you should be allowed to decline and wait for a human transplant or cross your fingers and hope for the best because any other solution interferes with the autonomy of your body. The only instances where the doctors should intervene is when the patient is in critical condition and cannot voice an opinion, at which point the doctors should do whatever it takes to save their life, according to the oath they took, or when it concerns a child, since a child should also be autonomous and the parents should not decide whether it lives or dies because they don't own it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: vayanui8

Lacius

Well-Known Member
OP
Member
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
18,099
Trophies
3
XP
18,338
Country
United States
Equality at the cost of freedom is not a form of equality I want to live under
If you think a free society is one where specific groups of people are not free to get the same goods and services as the rest of the public, then I don't think you know at all what freedom is, and I wouldn't want to live in your society. A society isn't free if there's a single group of second-class citizens.

We know what happens when businesses are allowed to discriminate against a specific group. This country has a long history of, for example, black people being unable to move up in society because they were turned down for loans and other services. When a group of people can't pursue the American dream because they can't buy a home nor start a business, that's not freedom. And, addressing a previous comment about capitalism, market factors often didn't affect discrimination during the era of civil rights, hence the need for the Civil Rights Act. Sometimes boycotts worked, but depending on the area, the time period, and the group being discriminated against, boycotts and other market factors don't dissuade discrimination.

Edit: This whole "at the cost of freedom" argument has been used many times throughout history. Getting rid of slavery, for example, hindered the freedom of slave owners to own slaves. Many laws that benefit society hinder some freedoms. Anti-homicide laws hinder the freedom of someone to kill another human being. One has to weigh the freedoms and figure out whose freedoms are more important. The freedom of someone to live outweighs the freedom of someone to kill. The literal freedom of a person outweighs the freedom of a slave owner to own slaves. The freedom of someone to have access to the same goods and services as the rest of the public outweighs the freedom of the butthurt business owner to arbitrary discriminate for no reason other than hate.

You can do business with whoever you like because it's your money on the line - the last thing you need is someone telling you how to run your own affairs. This might be mindblowing, but if a business owner is a racist asshole, now, this will be shocking so hold onto your seat, *take your business elsewhere* and do business with owners that support you. If you are a patient and you don't want a pig's valve in your heart, you should be allowed to decline and wait for a human transplant because any other solution interferes with the autonomy of your body. The only instances where the doctors should intervenes is when the patient is in critical condition and cannot voice an opinion, at which point the doctors should do whatever it takes to save the life of their patient, or when it concerns a child, since a child should also be autonomous and the parents should not decide whether it lives or dies because they don't own it.
I guess we just have to hope that a specific good or service of comparable price isn't monopolized by assholes. That never happens. Oh wait.
 
Last edited by Lacius,

Aurora Wright

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
1,550
Trophies
3
XP
4,518
Country
Italy
You can do business with whoever you like because it's your money on the line - the last thing you need is someone telling you how to run your own affairs. This might be mindblowing, but if a business owner is a racist asshole, now, this will be shocking so hold onto your seat, *take your business elsewhere* and do business with owners that support you - this will stimulate the market in and out of itself. Before long the racist will either be forced to serve customers or s/he'll be out of business. If you are a patient and you don't want a pig's valve in your heart, or a transfusion, for whatever goofy reason, you should be allowed to decline and wait for a human transplant or cross your fingers and hope for the best because any other solution interferes with the autonomy of your body. The only instances where the doctors should intervenes is when the patient is in critical condition and cannot voice an opinion, at which point the doctors should do whatever it takes to save their life, according to the oath they took, or when it concerns a child, since a child should also be autonomous and the parents should not decide whether it lives or dies because they don't own it.
I think you misinterpreted. We were talking about the business owner denying people services at will.
 
  • Like
Reactions: I pwned U!

Foxi4

Endless Trash
Global Moderator
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
30,844
Trophies
3
Location
Gaming Grotto
XP
29,930
Country
Poland
I guess we just have to hope that a specific good or service of comparable price isn't monopolized by assholes. That never happens. Oh wait.
That's a nice ideal, but you cannot force business owners to do business with customers they don't want to do business with without encroaching on *their* rights. You're comparing institutionalized racism to private business owners - hardly the same. You're not bringing in any more freedom into the equation, you're just taking it from one group for the benefit of another. It is not the government's job to choose who I trade with and why.
 
  • Like
Reactions: vayanui8

brickmii82

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2015
Messages
1,442
Trophies
1
Age
41
XP
2,930
Country
United States
So, assume I go to a party to some place, but I get denied service (it might be eating, or even entering) because the owners don't like me. Or assume during a trip I need to stop somewhere to sleep but I get denied service and this greatly inconveniences me because I'll have to go looking for some other place (and I'll probably pay more).
There are also even more serious examples: should a vegan surgeon be allowed to refuse a surgery because it involves swine heart valves? Or should a Jehovah's Witness surgeon be allowed to refuse all surgeries that involve transfusions? The list is infinite. If businesses and people were allowed to interrupt service at will, things would just not work (not counting the fact that the examples I mentioned above are the very definition of discrimination). It's impossible.
Every example you've brought would still have repercussions for that discrimination. A surgeon who had that mindset would have a small list of places he/she could perform/be employed by. The hotel would receive bad reviews for that mindset. I believe that America has changed(although this whole Trump thing has me a bit skeptical) but I'd still be willing to bet most of us won't stomach outright discrimination anymore. Look at what happened with chic-fil-et. They changed their attitude because of the repercussions of discriminatory ethics.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Foxi4

Foxi4

Endless Trash
Global Moderator
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
30,844
Trophies
3
Location
Gaming Grotto
XP
29,930
Country
Poland
I think you misinterpreted. We were talking about the business owner denying people services at will.
They are allowed to do so because it's their businesses, not yours. There is no public claim on privately owned businesses, you should have no say in how their owners operate them.
 

Lacius

Well-Known Member
OP
Member
Joined
May 11, 2008
Messages
18,099
Trophies
3
XP
18,338
Country
United States
That's a nice ideal, but you cannot force business owners to do business with customers they don't want to do business with without encroaching on *their* rights. You're comparing institutionalized racism to private business owners. You're not bringing in any more freedom into the equation, you're just taking it from one group for the benefit of another. It is not the government's job to choose who I trade with and why.
First, you're potentially creating an undue burden on those who are being discriminated against to find a comparable good or service that doesn't discriminate. This happened in history all the time, and a comparable good or service was often out of reach.

Second, see my quoted post below:
This whole "at the cost of freedom" argument has been used many times throughout history. Getting rid of slavery, for example, hindered the freedom of slave owners to own slaves. Many laws that benefit society hinder some freedoms. Anti-homicide laws hinder the freedom of someone to kill another human being. One has to weigh the freedoms and figure out whose freedoms are more important. The freedom of someone to live outweighs the freedom of someone to kill. The literal freedom of a person outweighs the freedom of a slave owner to own slaves. The freedom of someone to have access to the same goods and services as the rest of the public outweighs the freedom of the butthurt business owner to arbitrary discriminate for no reason other than hate.

Edit:
There is no public claim on privately owned businesses, you should have no say in how their owners operate them.
If a business operates in the public and serves the public, there are certain public laws they have to follow for the good of the public. That's the cost of being able to do business with the public while also reaping the benefits of doing business in a society with governmental services provided to it.
 
Last edited by Lacius,

Foxi4

Endless Trash
Global Moderator
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
30,844
Trophies
3
Location
Gaming Grotto
XP
29,930
Country
Poland
First, you're potentially creating an undue burden on those who are being discriminated against to find a comparable good or service that doesn't discriminate. This happened in history all the time, and a comparable good or service was often out of reach.
That's not a burden, that's a choice. They can choose businesses based on what they stand behind. I find it hard to believe that in the age of the Internet you cannot find an alternative. In this day and age you can do business with someone on the other side of the planet, doing so within one country is a non-issue. Fringe sexist/racist elements don't deserve any money, so don't give it to them - go elsewhere. If you know a shop discriminates gays, don't go to that shop - go elsewhere. Institutionalized racism was killed by social change, not government regulation. The government didn't wave a magic wand and made it disappear.
 
  • Like
Reactions: vayanui8

TotalInsanity4

GBAtemp Supreme Overlord
Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2014
Messages
10,800
Trophies
0
Location
Under a rock
XP
9,814
Country
United States
That's not a burden, that's a choice. They can choose businesses based on what they stand behind. I find it hard to believe that in the age of the Internet you cannot find an alternative. In this day and age you can do business with someone on the other side of the planet, doing so within one country is a non-issue. Fringe sexist/racist elements don't deserve any money, so don't give it to them - go elsewhere. If you know a shop discriminates gays, don't go to that shop - go elsewhere. Institutionalized racism was killed by social change, not government regulation. The government didn't wave a magic wand and made it disappear.
You're forgetting that there are areas in the world that either have very limited or no internet access, and the residents all rely on local shops for any goods
 
  • Like
Reactions: I pwned U!
Status
Not open for further replies.

Site & Scene News

Popular threads in this forum

General chit-chat
Help Users
  • No one is chatting at the moment.
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    why
  • Xdqwerty @ Xdqwerty:
    @K3Nv2, it's not funny
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    ok
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    Wut?
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    That's not funny
    +2
  • Psionic Roshambo @ Psionic Roshambo:
    So two cannibals where eating a clown and one says to the other. Hey does this taste funny to you?
    +2
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    What do you call a slow car? Retired
    +1
  • Psionic Roshambo @ Psionic Roshambo:
    Did you hear about the police car that someone stole the wheels off of? The police are working tirelessly to find the thieves.
    +2
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    A firefighter got arrested for assault his main claim was what I was told he was on fire
    +2
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    What do you call a hooker with a runny nose? Full
    +2
  • Psionic Roshambo @ Psionic Roshambo:
    What do you tell a woman with two black eyes? Nothing you already told her twice!
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    Diddy also works
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    A scientist heard the word batman so he put a naked lady in a cage with a bat
  • Psionic Roshambo @ Psionic Roshambo:
    Chuck Norris won a staring contest, with the sun.
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    A vampires favorite thing to do is moon you
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    What's the difference between an airplane, and Ken's mom? Not everyone has been in an airplane.
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    What's the difference between @BigOnYa and his wife? Nothing both want to bone me
    +3
  • RedColoredStars @ RedColoredStars:
    How much wood could a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck could chuck norris
    +1
  • BakerMan @ BakerMan:
    how do i know? you're a guy, and he wants to bone every guy on this site (maybe, idk)
    +1
  • K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2:
    He wants to bone anything with a dick
    +1
  • Xdqwerty @ Xdqwerty:
    Good night
    +1
  • BigOnYa @ BigOnYa:
    Nighty night, big day tomorrow. Congrats.
    K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7iLZ35NrQt/?igsh=MWd2Z3U0dmNlMmNxcw==