Hacking NDSSFC/CATSFC revival

[the_randomizer]

Yeah all my recordings are on "prefer fluid video" since I assume that's how people want to play, and I don't want to give a false impression that video and audio are of a certain level when it's one or the other at a time.

It certainly sounds like it catches up near the end.

Yeah, that's from FF6 on CATSFC, I didn't do an SNES9x recording for that one since it was just for randomizer to hear/see (as there's no notable issues for me to compare against), also I wanted to leave it stereo because it actually makes great use of it in the music (opposed to most games that are just stereo in name).

FF6's soundtrack is... just way better than that of most other SNES games, you can really see how much effort the devs put into the game, and what the SNES is capable of on the audio front.

Yeah, I have a recording that I posted if you wanted to compare the two spectrograms from the emulators (posted it in my last post). Nobuo Uematsu made quite the soundtrack, and both this and Chrono Trigger pushed the limits of the Snes sound processor. But I listened to your recording as well and it sounds better than the last one you recorded, but again, I don't know how the timing can be corrected. In case you missed it for some reason, here it is http://www.mediafire.com/?au1559upqvlsylg

I have a real Snes at my parent's house and if I can a way to hook it up to a PC, I can test FF6 and Chrono Trigger.

Let me know how it goes

 

[Deleted member 319809]

Right now I can only tell the two FF3 files apart because the DS's is analogue and Snes9x's is pure digital. There's a bit of glitching on the DS, and the bass frequencies seem to be lost more. What is needed is either an analog recording from the SNES to complement the analog DS, or a digital recording from the DS to complement the digital Snes9x. I wouldn't count on a digital recording from the DS, though

 

[Rydian]

Hunh... CATSFC is slower this time around.

It's not just the end, you can see from the louder parts too. There's definitely some slowdown, speedup, and catchup in the various recordings I've done.

FF3 leftright comparison
http://www.mediafire.com/?u0uoz0k5dplpcc5

 

[the_randomizer]

Right now I can only tell the two FF3 files apart because the DS's is analogue and Snes9x's is pure digital. There's a bit of glitching on the DS, and the bass frequencies seem to be lost more. What is needed is either an analog recording from the SNES to complement the analog DS, or a digital recording from the DS to complement the digital Snes9x. I wouldn't count on a digital recording from the DS, though

So right now, we shouldn't test more audio files? Any suggestions on how we should continue contributing in some way?


Edit: Oops, just got ninja'd by Rydian

 

[Rydian]

Right now I can only tell the two FF3 files apart because the DS's is analogue and Snes9x's is pure digital. There's a bit of glitching on the DS, and the bass frequencies seem to be lost more. What is needed is either an analog recording from the SNES to complement the analog DS, or a digital recording from the DS to complement the digital Snes9x. I wouldn't count on a digital recording from the DS, though

Well I could plug my computer's headphone jack into it's own mic jack if that counts?

But yeah, I haven't had a working SNES in far too long to be able to do this.

 

[the_randomizer]

Well I could plug my computer's headphone jack into it's own mic jack if that counts?

But yeah, I haven't had a working SNES in far too long to be able to do this.

I have a working Snes (I think, or at least a working Super Famicom), along with Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy 3/6, but what do I need to connect it to my PC and record it with Audacity? Did we just hit a stalemate as far as testing and are essentially SOL?

 

[Rydian]

I have a working Snes (I think, or at least a working Super Famicom), along with Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy 3/6, but what do I need to connect it to my PC and record it with Audacity? Did we just hit a stalemate as far as testing and are essentially SOL?

I don't actually know what sort of outputs the SNES has anymore... If it's just RCA you'd need a capture card, if it has headphone output you could just get one of these and do what I did with the DS.
http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10218&cs_id=1021816&p_id=9765&seq=1&format=2
3.5mm (1/8th inch) stereo male-to-male audio cable.

 

[Deleted member 319809]

Looks like there may be some aliasing yet, and some trouble with the dynamic range:

[the Nintendo DS has] a 16 hardware channel sound output with stereo speakers (whose quality is rather good) and standard headphone plug (3.5 mm jack). A sliding button allows to set the volume. DAC runs at 10-bit 32768 Hz, stereo

Source

I output at 32000 Hz, 16-bit, because that's what Snes9x gives me. I don't know enough about wave theory to say whether that causes problems at higher or lower frequencies, but I shall say that I can't make the sound sound any better than it currently does because of that.

As for the timing, I shall investigate. The main focus should always be that the sound synchronises correctly with the frames that the player sees, though! Because this is not a .spc file player.

I don't actually know what sort of outputs the SNES has anymore... If it's just RCA you'd need a capture card, if it has headphone output you could just get one of these and do what I did with the DS.
http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10218&cs_id=1021816&p_id=9765&seq=1&format=2
3.5mm (1/8th inch) stereo male-to-male audio cable.

It's RCA.

 

[the_randomizer]

I don't actually know what sort of outputs the SNES has anymore... If it's just RCA you'd need a capture card, if it has headphone output you could just get one of these and do what I did with the DS.
http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...=10218&cs_id=1021816&p_id=9765&seq=1&format=2
3.5mm (1/8th inch) stereo male-to-male audio cable.

The Snes uses RCA/S-video cables (composite) for it's audio/video output. Capture card huh? Crap, don't have one of those, I think. Looks like we're SOL then. So much for me wanting to help Nebuleon. Guess it was in vain.

Edit: Ninja'd by Nebuleon.

Looks like there may be some aliasing yet, and some trouble with the dynamic range:


Source

I output at 32000 Hz, 16-bit, because that's what Snes9x gives me. I don't know enough about wave theory to say whether that causes problems at higher or lower frequencies, but I shall say that I can't make the sound sound any better than it currently does because of that.

As for the timing, I shall investigate. The main focus should always be that the sound synchronises correctly with the frames that the player sees, though! Because this is not a .spc file player.


It's RCA.

Then that means those tests were in vain, as I've no capture card but an Snes, so I can't record from those games. Guess my help with the recording wasn't helpful.

Bollocks.

 

[wolfmanz51]

Right now I can only tell the two FF3 files apart because the DS's is analogue and Snes9x's is pure digital. There's a bit of glitching on the DS, and the bass frequencies seem to be lost more. What is needed is either an analog recording from the SNES to complement the analog DS, or a digital recording from the DS to complement the digital Snes9x. I wouldn't count on a digital recording from the DS, though

would A 3Ds recording be digital as it's simulated ds

 

[Deleted member 319809]

would A 3Ds recording be digital as it's simulated ds

If it comes from the headphone jack, no. The 3DS has a better DAC* though, so you hear sound with more dynamic range.

* DAC = Digital-to-Analog Converter

 

[the_randomizer]

If it comes from the headphone jack, no. The 3DS has a better DAC* though, so you hear sound with more dynamic range.

* DAC = Digital-to-Analog Converter

Dammit, guess I can't help after all if we can't do meaningful comparison/ABX testing between emulators

 

[Rydian]

Well the testing shows that the sound emulation...
1 - Has improved in accuracy.
2 - Does Stereo just fine.
3 - Matches the displayed frames.

Personally, 3 is the important bit as far as I'm concerned. Some of the sounds could be 0.3 seconds behind when the SNES would play them, but I didn't even notice until comparing the waveforms because they match what's being displayed on the DS at the time.

 

[Killermech]

Since then, Aladdin has also had a sound bug fixed when reloading states. I'm curious to see how playable it is on 1.30 versus 1.13.

Game runs amazing in 1.30, as do all the other games compared to any of the other previous versions.
A minor summary since I think I've tried every (at least notable) SNES emulators on the DS.

CATSFC 1.01 (When it was taken over by Shad for a while) - Normal games ran with minor lag, about 5%-10% slower compared to BAGSFC. But it was superior to BAGSFC when it came to performance hungry games such as Mario RPG / StarFox etc. This was the first time Mario RPG was actually playable on the DS to some extent.

BAGSFC - Ran normal games very good. Not perfect, but to a very playable state. Games such as Starfox / Mario RPG. Was pretty much unplayable.

CATSFC+ (When taken over by you, so I'll add a little +) - Is in an amazing state atm. It runs normal games to an extent where some are even playable with 0 frameskip and not ever having to go over 1 frameskip unless special cases like Starfox.
Additionally, the performance hungry games like Mario RPG / Starfox runs amazing compared to CATSFC 1.01 (which at that point I thought 'this is probably as good as it will ever get on the DS') and your previous versions.

SNEmul - When it comes to speed (in normal games), this is the only one that actually in some rare cases performs better. But due to random compatibility and having to play around with layers. CATSFC+ is by far superior to it overall.

Hope you enjoyed the reading and the summary.

As for something completely different. This is another case of the display area I've mentioned before.
I decided to give Super Mario Bros 1 (Through Super Mario All-Stars) a go for the nostalgia trip and here's how Middle aspect ratio looks like (screenshot through the emulator):

There's one hole in this screen and you will notice it after eventually checking the screen properly. But on the DS and while you're actually playing. It is by far more difficult to notice.
So at this point I can either play with Bottom screen aspect ratio and pretty much cut a big portion of the top screen or play in full screen mode and have performance cut by about 30%.

It's not a big deal as this rarely happens, but for example in that case. I would kill to be able to lower the screen like 3 pixels so I could actually see it properly

Keep up the good work as always!

 

[the_randomizer]

Well the testing shows that the sound emulation...
1 - Has improved in accuracy.
2 - Does Stereo just fine.
3 - Matches the displayed frames.

Personally, 3 is the important bit as far as I'm concerned. Some of the sounds could be 0.3 seconds behind when the SNES would play them, but I didn't even notice until comparing the waveforms because they match what's being displayed on the DS at the time.

Now then, seems my tests were useless, NDSSSFC will never have the accuracy of the Windows port....time for me to make like a hockey player and get the puck out.


Good day.

 

[Deleted member 319809]

CATSFC 1.31, the Second Hotkey Edition, is now released. I took the poll into consideration when adding these new hotkeys - it was not in vain, guys! Due to the wealth of hotkeys you can now use, I've also made it so you can use the D-Pad buttons. But watch out: directions are used all the time by games, so you probably want to use the L & R buttons too!

* Quick load state and Quick save state use slot #1; this is also stated in the interface for all languages.
* A full-screen toggle switches between modes 3 (Middle) and 4 (Smoothed full-screen). It goes to 3 if you use mode 0 (Unsmoothed full-screen) or 4, and to 4 otherwise.

Italian and Brazilian Portuguese are now in. And the multipart cheat codes are now grouped again, which I undid in 1.09 with the Game Genie code support.

 

[the_randomizer]

CATSFC 1.31, the Second Hotkey Edition, is now released. I took the poll into consideration when adding these new hotkeys - it was not in vain, guys! Due to the wealth of hotkeys you can now use, I've also made it so you can use the D-Pad buttons. But watch out: directions are used all the time by games, so you probably want to use the L & R buttons too!

* Quick load state and Quick save state use slot #1; this is also stated in the interface for all languages.
* A full-screen toggle switches between modes 3 (Middle) and 4 (Smoothed full-screen). It goes to 3 if you use mode 0 (Unsmoothed full-screen) or 4, and to 4 otherwise.

Italian and Brazilian Portuguese are now in. And the multipart cheat codes are now grouped again, which I undid in 1.09 with the Game Genie code support.

I wish my audio tests weren't in vain....

 

[Deleted member 319809]

I wish my audio tests weren't in vain....

They were not. Your part was needed too as a reference for the others.

Anyway, now my work on the GUI is mostly done, so apart from that timing issue, there isn't much left to do.

Except to accept more localisations, to continue speedhacking if I get better documentation about it, to oversee Snes9x 1.5x porting efforts in CATSFC or pass the baton to another maintainer. Perhaps also to copy-paste GUI improvements into NDSGBA if its sources are ever available.

 

[the_randomizer]

They were not. Your part was needed too as a reference for the others.

Anyway, now my work on the GUI is mostly done, so apart from that timing issue, there isn't much left to do.

Except to accept more localisations, to continue speedhacking if I get better documentation about it, to oversee Snes9x 1.5x porting efforts in CATSFC or pass the baton to another maintainer. Perhaps also to copy-paste GUI improvements into NDSGBA if its sources are ever available.

Well, I wasn't sure is all.

 

[Canadacdn]

Awesome work, this keeps getting better and better. I hope there will be some more speed improvements in the future! I wouldn't get my hopes up about getting the NDSGBA source though, Supercard has ignored every request for it so far. (Even though it legally should be released, seeing as it uses GPL code)