Jaywalking is kind of a stupid law.

[Pedeadstrian]

Fine, let's say that in some accidents bodies can be thrown long distance, fair enough, but helmets? Other than the driver's, whose lives are they saving? Now you're just overexaggerating.

You were the one saying laws that only protect oneself are pointless, not him. I'm guessing "They save lives" refers to the drivers themselves.

 

[Foxi4]

You were the one saying laws that only protect oneself are pointless, not him. I'm guessing "They save lives" refers to the drivers themselves.

Fair enough, if that's the case, I agree. Just to be painfuly clear, I own a helmet myself, I just don't see a reason to make wearing one mandatory, unless to improve the rider's capacity to see (damn insects and rain), however some would probably prefer goggles (to their own demise). I'm merely a proponent of freedom of choice, including the freedom to make catastrophic mistakes.

 

[Veho]

Fine, let's say that in some accidents bodies can be thrown long distance, fair enough, but helmets? Other than the driver's, whose lives are they saving?

Is that not enough? I'll just quote my previous post: there is no reason someone should die just because they're going through the period of believing they are invincible most people go through before they grow up. The symptoms of which include refusing to wear a helmet because "it will never happen to me".

 

[Foxi4]

Is that not enough? I'll just quote my previous post: there is no reason someone should die just because they're going through the period of believing they are invincible most people go through before they grow up. The symptoms of which include refusing to wear a helmet because "it will never happen to me".

Why do you feel obligated to make choices for others? What gives you the authority to decide what's best for others? Drivers are adults - if they're allowed to join the army and get shot up by ISIS because they "feel invincible" then f*ck me, they can make a decision regarding helmets.

 

[Pedeadstrian]

Fair enough, if that's the case, I agree. Just to be painfuly clear, I own a helmet myself, I just don't see a reason to make wearing one mandatory, unless to improve the rider's capacity to see (damn insects and rain), however some would probably prefer goggles (to their own demise). I'm merely a proponent of freedom of choice, including the freedom to make catastrophic mistakes.

And you're entitled to that belief, but try thinking about it this way. Not everyone is mentally sound. Some people may get so angry, depressed, or whatnot that their logic goes out the window, and there are some people with mental conditions that makes this happen often, if not all the time. To take it to the extreme, think about a person who commits suicide. Your freedom of choice, including the freedom to make catastrophic mistakes, spits in the face of anyone who committed suicide, survived suicide, and/or their families.

 

[Foxi4]

And you're entitled to that belief, but try thinking about it this way. Not everyone is mentally sound. Some people may get so angry, depressed, or whatnot that their logic goes out the window, and there are some people with mental conditions that makes this happen often, if not all the time. To take it to the extreme, think about a person who commits suicide. Your freedom of choice, including the freedom to make catastrophic mistakes, spits in the face of anyone who committed suicide, survived suicide, and/or their families.

Excuse me, what does suicide have to do with this? You're comparing the freedom to choose to end your life (which you should be free to make by the way, preferably after consultation with a psychologist in case it's a "phase") with something that's currently illegal, I don't see the connection. Are you implying that survivors of attempted suicide regret their actions much like survivors of accidents? Regret comes with most mistakes, that's a poor connection. Explain your point in more detail.

 

[Veho]

Why do you feel obligated to make choices for others? What gives you the authority to decide what's best for others? Drivers are adults - if they're allowed to join the army and get shot up by ISIS because they "feel invincible" then f*ck me, helmets aren't the thing you should be focusing on.

Soldiers get helmets too.

People with impaired judgement are generally given a legal guardian who makes decisions ("choices") for them for their own good. There is plenty of precedent for making decisions for others when it is obvious they are incapable of making them on their own. And there can be no question that the judgement of anyone choosing to drive a motorcycle without a helmet is severely impaired.

 

[Foxi4]

Soldiers get helmets too.

People with impaired judgement are generally given a legal guardian who makes decisions ("choices") for them for their own good. There is plenty of precedent for making decisions for others when it is obvious they are incapable of making them on their own. And there can be no question that the judgement of anyone choosing to drive a motorcycle without a helmet is severely impaired.

So is the decision to join the army at a young age, yet you're not advocating for those young boys and girls with impaired judgement who sign up, often before they even reach drinking age. You need to be 21 in order to drink in the U.S. for instance, you only need to be 18 to join the army. Enemy bullets, mortar fire and bombs? Okay. Riding without a helmet? No way, you're too young and inexperienced to make an educated decision.

 

[Pedeadstrian]

Excuse me, what does suicide have to do with this? You're comparing the freedom to choose to end your life (which you should be free to make by the way, preferably after consultation with a psychologist in case it's a "phase") with something that's currently illegal, I don't see the connection. Are you implying that survivors of attempted suicide regret their actions much like survivors of accidents? Regret comes with most mistakes, that's a poor connection. Explain your point in more detail.

Hmm... apparently suicide isn't a crime in California, only helping someone commit suicide is. Be that as it may, what I'm saying is that there are times where people are not in their right mind (whether it's a "phase" or not), and letting people do any dangerous thing they want in the name of "freedom" is, well, dangerous. Obviously I'm not saying suicide and jaywalking/not wearing a seatbelt are equal.

It's funny that there are helmet laws, but no laws against suicide. According to the law, if you wanna jump off a bridge, go ahead, but god forbid you ride a motorcycle to the bridge without a helmet.

 

[Veho]

Riding without a helmet? No way, you're too young and inexperienced to make an educated decision.

A decision to ride without a helmet is not an educated one.

 

[Foxi4]

A decision to ride without a helmet is not an educated one.

You're avoiding the argument, so I'll ask directly - is it or is it not hypocritical to expect a mature decision regarding enlisting in the army from an 18-year-old, but treating a 21-year-old like a child who has to be told to wear a helmet and buckle up? That's all I'm expecting from you, I don't think I'm asking for much.

 

[Veho]

You're avoiding the argument, so I'll ask directly - is it or is it not hypocritical to expect a mature decision regarding enlisting in the army from an 18-year-old, but treating a 21-year-old like a child who has to be told to wear a helmet and buckle up? That's all I'm expecting from you, I don't think I'm asking for much.

Your premise (a very large assumption indeed) is that I support people of that age joining the army. Since I have never claimed anything of the sort, the premise is flawed from the start.

And yes, anyone of that age not buckling up (in a car) or wearing a helmet (on a motorcycle) is a child who needs to be told what to do.

 

[StriderVM]

Disclaimer : I only read the beginning text, ie the TC's thoughts.

I kind of disagree with your assumption, to be direct, no one really wants to get hit by a car while walking in the road, but these things happen quite a lot, especially on highways (Where some drivers think is a race track), that's why on these road(s) there are alternative ways to cross it like overpasses, and thus possible jaywalking fines when you go thru the road. Everyone obeying those jaywalking laws in theory would save lives.

So sometimes knowledge or common sense are not enough and it can cause accidents so sometimes these laws are needed.

 

[Foxi4]

Your premise (a very large assumption indeed) is that I support people of that age joining the army. Since I have never claimed anything of the sort, the premise is flawed from the start.

And yes, anyone of that age not buckling up (in a car) or wearing a helmet (on a motorcycle) is a child who needs to be told what to do.

I asked for a simple declaration regarding a double-standard, but seeing that you're unwilling to provide a concrete answer, there's no point in going on. I choose not to treat adults like children who need to be told what to do. Maybe I'm idealist like that or a libertarian, but I choose to believe in giving people choices rather than legislating personal matters.

 

[Veho]

I asked for a simple declaration regarding a double-standard, but seeing that you're unwilling to provide a concrete answer, there's no point in going on.

This was a discussion about a specific piece of traffic safety regulation, and you are trying to introduce unrelated issues. The point of a "double standard" you're trying to make has no bearing on the discussion. Two wrongs don't make a right. The fact one law is unfair doesn't excuse the other. In the US, people can join the Army at age 16. Being admitted into the Army doesn't make you an adult. It doesn't mean you're responsible, it doesn't mean you have the faintest idea what the fuck you are doing.

And I choose to treat "adults" like children if they insist on behaving like children.

 

[Vipera]

Ok then, let's make everyone crossing the road whenever they please.

You'll die in Milan. Either hit by a car or hit by the driver you just scared to death. Some roads are VERY large and if you walk in an unsigned point you are going to put yourself at risk. Allow it to everyone and all the car traffic won't be higher than 20 miles per hour because every driver must be careful for pedestrians everywhere because durr that law was stupid.

Also, wear your goddamn helmet when on a motorcycle. There is enough queue at the hospital without even more dickheads getting a red code because they were feeling God.

 

[Foxi4]

This was a discussion about a specific piece of traffic safety regulation, and you are trying to introduce unrelated issues. The point of a "double standard" you're trying to make has no bearing on the discussion. Two wrongs don't make a right. The fact one law is unfair doesn't excuse the other. In the US, people can join the Army at age 16. Being admitted into the Army doesn't make you an adult. It doesn't mean you're responsible, it doesn't mean you have the faintest idea what the fuck you are doing. And I choose to treat "adults" like children if they insist on behaving like children.

Fair enough, I just wanted to know your stance - I'm glad that you think (I presume?) that 16-year-olds shouldn't be sent off to a desert with a rifle and basic training in order to kill and inevitably get mentally scarred, sometimes disfigured, crippled and even killed. As for treating adults like kids, we'll have to agree to disagree here - I embrace the right to make mistakes and do things I might regret later on in life. I suppose I enjoy knowing that I'm responsible for myself without a guardian angel with a notepad and tickets always looking out for me lest I do something stupid.

Ok then, let's make everyone crossing the road whenever they please.

You'll die in Milan. Either hit by a car or hit by the driver you just scared to death. Some roads are VERY large and if you walk in an unsigned point you are going to put yourself at risk. Allow it to everyone and all the car traffic won't be higher than 20 miles per hour because every driver must be careful for pedestrians everywhere because durr that law was stupid.

Also, wear your goddamn helmet when on a motorcycle. There is enough queue at the hospital without even more dickheads getting a red code because they were feeling God.

Jaywalking is a no-no simply because you're obstructing the road where you don't belong, that's correct. As for queues in hospitals, motorcyclists pay the same taxes and the same insurence as everybody else, they deserve as much service as the rest of the queue.

 

[Vipera]

Jaywalking is a no-no simply because you're obstructing the road where you don't belong, that's correct. As for queues in hospitals, motorcyclists pay the same taxes and the same insurence as everybody else, they deserve as much service as the rest of the queue.

If your accident could've been avoided with something simple like a helmet then no, you deserve to either wait longer or pay an extra (like a fine. A stupidity fine). I'm glad when my tax money help people with serious illnesses, or victims of accidents, or research. I'm not amused when the money my government takes forcefully are used to help a dipsgit who that day didn't wear a safety helmet because his hair were too pretty. I get it, everyone make mistakes. But there's a reason why you are allowed to make certain mistakes and some not: the first ones might be too rare or not as dangerous.

 

[Veho]

I embrace the right to make mistakes and do things I might regret later on in life.

Even if the consequence of these mistakes may be not having a "later" to regret them in?

 

[Foxi4]

Even if the consequence of these mistakes may be not having a "later" to regret them in?

Even then. Where I live there's a saying, it goes: "everyone is the blacksmith of their own fate" and I believe in that principle strongly. If I have an accident that happens due to my own negligence, I have nobody to blame but myself - I should've taken better measures in ensuring that it doesn't happen. Maybe I expect too much of others, expect them to be responsible for themselves in a day and age when burning yourself with an obviously hot coffee is grounds for a lawsuit, but I choose to present reasons why wearing a seatbelt and a helmet is important rather than put the helmet on someone or strap that someone into their seat for "their own good". I expect adults to be adults. If, as an adult, you are told that 9 out of 10 accidents end in death when you're not wearing a helmet and only 4 out of 10 when you do and you *still* choose not to wear it, godspeed and good luck - society did its part, the consequences are yours, you were informed.