FCC To Approve Net Neutrality Rules Thursday

elunesgrace

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The idea that the government instituting controls is somehow bad for the economy is nonsense, and is a result of the broken free-market capitalist thinking.

The government is supposed to be elected bodies that operate on behalf of its citizens to institute laws to create rules in society.

If you want a society with no laws, then you should live on an island with animals. But if you want civilized society, you need laws and regulations.

Government regulation is only bad when your government is corrupt, which in our case is unfortunately true. The modern capitalist system is so broken that there is often little separation between the 1% in the corporate world and government officials!
 
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Government regulation is only bad when your government is corrupt, which in our case is unfortunately true. The modern capitalist system is so broken that there is often little separation between the 1% in the corporate world and government officials!

The issue I feel is this
The government is in an age where people don't trust it or the elected officials so that carries over to the views of every issue including this one.

The second issue is that the corps pair with the officials all the time even to those who favor stricter regulation of campaign money (Obama and Romney both have tons of billionaire CEO friends who are more than happy to help) and many vote based off of the $$$ (john boehner and Nancy pelosi both own good sized shares of comcast)

But yeah all in all we are screwed in the internet as look at it the glv has shown it is awful at its internet regs (look at what happened to Dotcom or Snowden) so why will it change? It won't atleast till we get new relevant leaders on both sides which won't happen for a while
 

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>ISP's gang up on customers to price gouge and provide inferior services, people complain.
>Government steps in, establishes anti-monopoly laws and forces ISP's to compete again rather than exploit end users, people complain.

Only in the U.S.A can you have people complain about something good only because the government did it. You can't have it both ways, either you trust the free market at the risk of getting f*cked by ISP's or you trust the government to intervene at the risk of getting f*cked by the government, you can't have a cake and still eat it. Be happy that your bare minimum of rights as a consumer will be protected for god's sake.
 

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The idea that the government instituting controls is somehow bad for the economy is nonsense, and is a result of the broken free-market capitalist thinking.

The government is supposed to be elected bodies that operate on behalf of its citizens to institute laws to create rules in society.

If you want a society with no laws, then you should live on an island with animals. But if you want civilized society, you need laws and regulations.

Government regulation is only bad when your government is corrupt, which in our case is unfortunately true. The modern capitalist system is so broken that there is often little separation between the 1% in the corporate world and government officials!
The free market is not equivalent to a land without laws. The free market is not even a market fully unregulated, but a market controlled by the laws of supply and demand supporting competition in the marketplace. A fully unregulated market (called Laissez Faire capitalism) will tend towards monopolies and trusts that seek to exploit consumers with price-fixing. On the other end, you have over-regulated markets where the government tries to do more than it should and it results in volatile markets and unintended consequences for their attempts to control the markets. And then of course there's corruption, and the more government there is, the more corruption you open yourself up to.
 
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I'm baffled by some of the reactions in this thread. What we're seeing is the result of an attempted corporate regulation being thwarted by a massive flood of public reactions by companies like netflix, tumblr and mozilla, and of course their users. The result is pretty much a scholar example that democracy actually works (at least: it seems that way to me).
I get that "being against the government" is cool nowadays, but this is getting ridiculous. Did some of you guys actually read the article?

The F.C.C. plan would let the agency regulate Internet access as if it is a public good. It would follow the concept known as net neutrality or an open Internet, banning so-called paid prioritization — or fast lanes — for willing Internet content providers.

In addition, it would ban the intentional slowing of the Internet for companies that refuse to pay broadband providers. The plan would also give the F.C.C. the power to step in if unforeseen impediments are thrown up by the handful of giant companies that run many of the country’s broadband and wireless networks.

Here's the story in a nutshell:

Up to a few years ago, all data on the internet was treated roughly equal. The ISP's role was limited to providing their users with an actual connection and perhaps blocking some known malware stuff.
Then they got creative. I'm not sure if it's the first case or just the one I first heard about, but netflix users noticed their connection being lower than normal. And that reason wasn't related to the physical connection or the netflix servers being shitty. It was the ISP (or multiple of them) intervening and assigning netflix fewer bandwith. I'm not sure how reliable the source was where I read it, but it may even have been that the ISP offered to fix the problem for netflix...an offer that backfired when it was discovered that they were the one who created the "problem" in the first place.
It wasn't that long before more of these stories started popping up. Torrent traffic, for example, were a target. There's even a Dutch word for it: 'knijpen', which translated to 'squeezing', though I'm not sure if that word is used in English in regards to limiting a connection based on the application.

All in all, you can see where this is going. Without regulation, ISP's can use their power to gain benefits from internet competition. They can decide to charge their users extra if they want to see youtube. They can ask fees of corporations if they want their content to be streamed (like in netflix's case). And since I understand that in the US, quite some ISP's have direct ties with large companies, they can decide to harass their competition by slowing their internet access.

It's free marketing at its finest, really. The more people value something, the more you can ask for it. The ISP's plan is to break up the internet into sellable parts to increase their profits. Of course their users are allowed to leave, but that only works well if there are many alternatives. Which often aren't there (and if this practice was to remain legal, new ones would be stupid NOT to set up similar rules, as it's far more profitable).

What ISP's didn't anticipate, though, was the size and speed of their adversaries. Web companies obviously don't like this scenario where the best they can hope is to stay out of sight of ISP's that may at will decide to threaten to slow or even block them as they become more popular (unless they pay fees). So they as well rallied for support and started informing their users of what may lie ahead.

...which leads us to this article. From the looks of it, that campaign is so successful that the government not only listened to them, but is about to pass a law that makes the abovementioned practice illegal. In other words: the internet should remains neutral when it comes to what data should get priority.
 

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So many people have bought the fairy tale of "free markets". It is sad...

Actually, "free markets" and libertarianism are just "Anarchy for the rich". The market today is so "free", that private megabanks were bailed-out by governments...

"Free market" is about keeping the profits private, and making the losses public...
 

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So many people have bought the fairy tale of "free markets". It is sad...

Actually, "free markets" and libertarianism are just "Anarchy for the rich". The market today is so "free", that private megabanks were bailed-out by governments...

"Free market" is about keeping the profits private, and making the losses public...
It sounds like you're trying to bash the concept of the free market by complaining about our current economic system, but then you go on to cite an example that proves that we do not have a free market economy. What you refer to as the free market is more along the lines of crony capitalism which is an unholy marriage between government and business and bears little resemblance to the free market.
 
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The free market is not equivalent to a land without laws. The free market is not even a market fully unregulated, but a market controlled by the laws of supply supporting competition in the marketplace. A fully unregulated market (called Laissez Fair capitalism) will tend towards monopolies and trusts that seek to exploit consumers with price-fixing. On the other end, you have over-regulated markets where the government tries to do more than it should and it results in volatile markets and unintended consequences for their attempts to control the markets. And then of course there's corruption, and the more government there is, the more corruption you open yourself up to.
Thank you, someone who makes a lick of sense. Here's how the cookie crumbles - companies want to make money, ladies and gentlemen. Preferably, they want to make money with the least effort and expenses on their end. If they have a choice between offering shitty, low-maintenance Internet access and rake in profits from such "premium" services as YouTube and offering an actually good service and earn less money, they will absolutely go for the "more money" option without hessitation unless that option is limited by law - the only thing that's holding them back. I'm not saying that corporations consist entirely of devils with pitchforks, I'm saying that it just makes business sense. If you expect faceless corporate giants to not take advantage of their customers in the name of *giggles* ethics, you've got another thing coming - profit outweighs ethics when it comes to their bank statements.
 

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So many people have bought the fairy tale of "free markets". It is sad...

Actually, "free markets" and libertarianism are just "Anarchy for the rich". The market today is so "free", that private megabanks were bailed-out by governments...

"Free market" is about keeping the profits private, and making the losses public...

Hmm...no. Sorry. I share your fears, but you're explaining some things in the wrong way.


Free market being anarchy for the rich...To a degree, yes. Grossaffe already nicely pointed out that if you let the market regulate itself, it's more likely to create monopolies, trusts and cartels than companies fighting over each other to give the end user what he wants at the best possible (but still profitable) price. In other words: it's anarchy in the sense that there is no overarching leader. It is, however, not anarchy in the sense that it has no rules (to take the ISP's as example: it only requires one ISP with net neutrality that is available everywhere to make the others follow suit. However, why WOULD that one ISP do that if they can agree with the others to combine their efforts to get more revenue from everyone).


Those large banks were bailed out, yes, but that very act points out the very flaw of the free market: it has no long-term sustainability (at least in the way it was practiced since...about the 80'ies). The very idea of a market is that it should be able to support both for profits and losses. It's no different for "the free market". It's just that in daily practice, there was (and still is) this general trend of sacrificing long-term profit for short-term gain.


I can't elaborate on 'libertarianism', as I'm not familiar with it.




It sounds like you're trying to bash the concept of the free market by complaining about our current economic system, but then you go on to cite an example that proves that we do not have a free market economy. What you refer to as the free market is more along the lines of crony capitalism which is an unholy marriage between government and business and bears little resemblance to the free market.

Depends on how you view things, I suppose. Since roughly the 80'ies, banks have been so 'free' to loan, trade and sell at their will, creating a climate that actually had (and according to more than one sources still has) the potential to destroy world economy as a whole. That 'unholy marriage' you speak of is more in the line of a blackmail or a hold-up. They gave the government pretty much the choice to either bail them out or face consequences that were far worse.
 

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I am sorry, but there is no free market. Never was, never will be. For a market to exist, rules and laws need to apply. And those need to be enforced by a trusted entity, AKA Government.

For example, how can a market exist if the strong can bend the rules and avoid paying for products? Or how a market can exist if no protection for the customer exist? Would you shop for food if no one ensured you would not be fed garbage?

The "free market" is a fraud. What right wing lunatics mean by "free market", is licence to exploit others for profit.
 

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I am sorry, but there is no free market. Never was, never will be. For a market to exist, rules and laws need to apply. And those need to be enforced by a trusted entity, AKA Government.

For example, how can a market exist if the strong can bend the rules and avoid paying for products? Or how a market can exist if no protection for the customer exist? Would you shop for food if no one ensured you would not be fed garbage?

The "free market" is a fraud. What right wing lunatics mean by "free market", is licence to exploit others for profit.
I've been trying to hammer in the point that the free market is not anti-regulation, but rather for limited regulation. Free Market != Laissez Faire Capitalism.
 

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You're kidding, right? Were all government regulations to simply disappear, you'd expect corporate America to do what's best for the people? If those regulations never existed to begin with, America's working conditions would have been a carbon copy of China's for some time now. Every cent we made would feed right back in to the corporations we slaved for.

Our government and our democracy have turned to shit, it's true, but that doesn't mean the government has never put in place needed safeguards against big business, which has always been shit. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I'd also like to note that a big part of the reason our government and democracy are broken now is because of the amount of money involved in both. The money and the deregulation needed to allow that much money in to politics came from big business as well. It's hard to complain about anti-business practices from the government ruining things when big business essentially owns the government anyway.
The problem is that it is a revolving door , it's all the same fucking people and they are not going to regulate themselves
All of the governmental regulatory agencies are headed staffed and run by the same people they are suppose to be regulating the whole thing is a scam by the same people
"So how wide is the revolving door between the telecommunications giant and the FCC? For Comcast’s in-house lobbyists, it’s significant and still swinging. According to an analysis byOpenSecrets Blog, 18 people have both lobbied for Comcast and spent time in the public sector. Of those, 12 are currently registered lobbyists for Comcast, with five of them having spent time at the FCC.
From FCC chair to Comcast lobbyist
The most prominent example of the Comcast/FCC revolving door is former FCC commissioner and current Comcast lobbyist Meredith Baker.
Baker, whose views tended to side with the industry even before she went to the FCC, was appointed to to her FCC position in July 2009 and stayed there for nearly two years, cutting her four-year term short in June 2011 to move to Comcast as its senior vice president of government affairs."

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2014/04/the-comcast-fcc-revolving-door/
 

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I am sorry, but there is no free market. Never was, never will be. For a market to exist, rules and laws need to apply. And those need to be enforced by a trusted entity, AKA Government.

For example, how can a market exist if the strong can bend the rules and avoid paying for products? Or how a market can exist if no protection for the customer exist? Would you shop for food if no one ensured you would not be fed garbage?

The "free market" is a fraud. What right wing lunatics mean by "free market", is licence to exploit others for profit.

Of course all markets need regulation or else we'd end up like Somalia. The issue is where do we draw the line?

Sure I'll admit that the ISPs can hurt the consumer but what about what the gov has done to the internet?

Answer is they really have done things that are very suspicious IMHO thus that gives me personally I worrying feeling towards the law

Any just scared where this could lead (COPA & PIPA, more power to the lobbying MPAA or RIAA) but who knows maybe it will in prove things
 

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Thank you, someone who makes a lick of sense. Here's how the cookie crumbles - companies want to make money, ladies and gentlemen. Preferably, they want to make money with the least effort and expenses on their end. If they have a choice between offering shitty, low-maintenance Internet access and rake in profits from such "premium" services as YouTube and offering an actually good service and earn less money, they will absolutely go for the "more money" option without hessitation unless that option is limited by law - the only thing that's holding them back. I'm not saying that corporations consist entirely of devils with pitchforks, I'm saying that it just makes business sense. If you expect faceless corporate giants to not take advantage of their customers in the name of *giggles* ethics, you've got another thing coming - profit outweighs ethics when it comes to their bank statements.


And yet people wanted or rather, wanted the government to be in charge of prioritizing data and get rid of net neutrality? I'm sure they'd have done a bang up job with knowing what's best. Surely, putting our trust wholly in any given government couldn't possibly end badly, right??
 
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elunesgrace

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The issue I feel is this
The government is in an age where people don't trust it or the elected officials so that carries over to the views of every issue including this one.

The second issue is that the corps pair with the officials all the time even to those who favor stricter regulation of campaign money (Obama and Romney both have tons of billionaire CEO friends who are more than happy to help) and many vote based off of the $$$ (john boehner and Nancy pelosi both own good sized shares of comcast)

But yeah all in all we are screwed in the internet as look at it the glv has shown it is awful at its internet regs (look at what happened to Dotcom or Snowden) so why will it change? It won't atleast till we get new relevant leaders on both sides which won't happen for a while

ie the revolving door.

The free market is not equivalent to a land without laws. The free market is not even a market fully unregulated, but a market controlled by the laws of supply and demand supporting competition in the marketplace. A fully unregulated market (called Laissez Faire capitalism) will tend towards monopolies and trusts that seek to exploit consumers with price-fixing. On the other end, you have over-regulated markets where the government tries to do more than it should and it results in volatile markets and unintended consequences for their attempts to control the markets. And then of course there's corruption, and the more government there is, the more corruption you open yourself up to.

Just so it's clear, I am an B&E grad so I did study these theories. I didn't feel gbatemp was the right place to go into this topic in a deep way hence I just posted the conclusions.

The word 'free-market' is a word that is often re-defined when it comes to implementation in different theories. However, we are (or at least I am) talking about what actually exists, because it is the practical implementation of the free-market ideology (capitalism), and not something theoretical.

In an effort to revive this broken system of capitalism, some modern intellectuals try to 'tinker' with capitalism by changing the structure of free-markets, however it doesn't change the the issue is at the level of the premises themselves.

But for all practical purposes, free market really is a land without law in economics, except the very basic premises (ie individual is function of society, guarantee of freedoms, scarcity of resources, etc). Most of these premises are false. The conclusion of it is constant attempts at deregulation, because is really just the representatives from the people (government) creating laws to govern economic transactions. In fact regulation was actually institute as a reaction to the discussion points Communists would make against the Western world, and this led to many of the modern social programs and regulatory requirements (in addition to some of the market crashes). Of course Communists regulated everything completely (with some differences based on school of thought), but that is also incorrect in premise.

It is not that Capitalism and the free market ideology need tweaking. Rather, they need to be replaced with something else.

In any case, for the purpose of this thread, corporations clearly need regulation, though because the revolving door continues to persist regulation in the current system won't actually create real change, just temporary change.
 

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In any case, for the purpose of this thread, corporations clearly need regulation, though because the revolving door continues to persist regulation in the current system won't actually create real change, just temporary change.

Well the revolving door will never go away, why because it gives them money. Think about it sure getting rid of it would be good but it would cost your campaign and party millions (or billions) of dollars from the corps?
 

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This is probably long past due, but for anyone who is unsure about all the hubbub, bub, CGP Grey has a decent explanation of the issue.

Wow. It blows me away that people actually believe that guy after watching that video! Look at all the approving comments! They totally bought it and will now forget about the issue/not research it on their own.
The 'slowing down' of services etc is not guaranteed from the start.
UDP packets- not a static route.
Its a shame that people fall for this, but hey, more control is good for me :)
 

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This the greatest news since the invention of the net.

Without Net Neutrality the world will be horrible place for startups and new business. Only the weathiest companies will have fast sites and streaming services.

Without this law, companies like Netflix would go under since ISPs would throttle their bandwith, leaving only the ISP owned streaming services available to the public at marked up price. It would kill all streaming services that are not ISP affiliated in one blow. Very bad for consumers.

This a huge step, I'm glad they sided for the people and not the corporations.

There's a reason why ISPs want to control bandwith. They know that in the future all media will eventually move into ISP space and by controlling bandwith they control the content delivery system which means a monopoly on all media.
 

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Wow. It blows me away that people actually believe that guy after watching that video! Look at all the approving comments! They totally bought it and will now forget about the issue/not research it on their own.
The 'slowing down' of services etc is not guaranteed from the start.
UDP packets- not a static route.
Its a shame that people fall for this, but hey, more control is good for me :)


So how would this not passing possibly be a good thing? The government shouldn't be trusted to control everything for us.
 
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