PS1/2 Do modern burners/CD's make lower quality PS1 backups?

[KleinesSinchen]

The console was optimized for a 72 minute seek table in the CD-ROM firmware of all consoles according to the no cash psx spx. That of course doesn’t mean it can’t do 80 minutes, but it is optimized for 72 minute discs, which did exist around launch (higher capacity discs like 74 min also existed around this time, even some developers from 1995 were asking if such disc would work in their dev units).

I really do wonder if 70 vs 63 would really see any difference because of the above.

In my opinion it is very hard to find "hard facts". Just by burning a few CDs, we'll not come to objective test results beyond "works perfect" / "stutters" / "doesn't work"

A little brainstorming:

If anybody would be willing to implement some functions of Nero Disc Speed right on the PS1… (to not start from scratch QPxTool source might be helpful).

I doubt the PS1 drive will support reporting C1/C2 errors, but one could implement random seeks (far, near) and measure timings. If the drive has problems positioning on tighter track (maybe using 90min or even 100min blanks) this should show in seek times.
Max data rate measurement probably isn't going to help as the drive is max 2x only (though one could verify if full speed can be kept by just streaming 20MB at the beginning, the middle and at the end of a CD).
What also comes to my mind – if there is a RAW read command – verifying accuracy by checksumming over blocks of 100 RAW sectors each. If everything works normally, the last level error correction (which can be made visible to the user with RAW reading) is not needed and should be faithfully reproduced. If there is any reading trouble, and the PS1 would have to resort to (P-Parity/Q-Parity) for reconstructing during normal operation, the checksum for RAW sectors will mismatch.

Wonder if there is any PS1 modification for digital audio out. A clever way to verify accuracy of CDDA playback was mentioned here (of course the result was clear from the beginning when testing audiophile voodoo magic). Streaming a complete CDDA could also show weaknesses

 

[alexfree]

In my opinion it is very hard to find "hard facts". Just by burning a few CDs, we'll not come to objective test results beyond "works perfect" / "stutters" / "doesn't work"

A little brainstorming:

If anybody would be willing to implement some functions of Nero Disc Speed right on the PS1… (to not start from scratch QPxTool source might be helpful).

I doubt the PS1 drive will support reporting C1/C2 errors, but one could implement random seeks (far, near) and measure timings. If the drive has problems positioning on tighter track (maybe using 90min or even 100min blanks) this should show in seek times.
Max data rate measurement probably isn't going to help as the drive is max 2x only (though one could verify if full speed can be kept by just streaming 20MB at the beginning, the middle and at the end of a CD).
What also comes to my mind – if there is a RAW read command – verifying accuracy by checksumming over blocks of 100 RAW sectors each. If everything works normally, the last level error correction (which can be made visible to the user with RAW reading) is not needed and should be faithfully reproduced. If there is any reading trouble, and the PS1 would have to resort to (P-Parity/Q-Parity) for reconstructing during normal operation, the checksum for RAW sectors will mismatch.

Wonder if there is any PS1 modification for digital audio out. A clever way to verify accuracy of CDDA playback was mentioned here (of course the result was clear from the beginning when testing audiophile voodoo magic). Streaming a complete CDDA could also show weaknesses

Full quote relevant to this on psx spx:

The CDROM BIOS seems to split seek distance somehow into coarse steps (eg. minutes) and fine steps (eg. seconds/sectors), so 1-minute seek distance may have completely different timings than 59-seconds distance.
The amount of data per spiral winding increases towards ends of the disc (so the drive head will need to be moved by shorter distance when moving from minute 59 to 60 as than moving from 00 to 01).
The CDROM BIOS contains some seek distance table, which is probably optimized for 72-minute discs (or whatever capacity is used on original PSX discs). 80-minute CDRs may have tighter spiral windings (the above seek table is probably causing the drive head to be moved too far on such discs, which will raise the seek time as the head needs to be moved backwards to compensate that error).

I don’t think it would be hard to do what your saying to find out definitively. Read full sector including ECC/EDC. Checksum that and compare it to a table of known good values. Repeat 99x more times. Seek around though for different ones, and see how it goes.

Might be an interesting homebrew someday to look into… your absolutely right tho a true scientific test is much better then a bunch of anecdotal experiences…

Lastly, here is that quote from a Sony rep back in 95:

3/27/95 7:56 PM
*How to make Debug Station CD BillÊ"Angus" Guschwan
CD
To make debug station cds:
1) Get rid of PCread, pollhost, etal 2) Link with 2mbyte.obj 3) Do a cpe2x on the .cpe file 4a) Add files to the CDGEN. 4b) Choose correct file type for XA stuff. Use Mode 2 Form 1 for game data. Use Mode 2 Form 2 for XA files. Use the File Type button to set it for each file. Standard file is Mode 2 Form 1. 5) In Additional Information button dialog of Volume panel of CDGEN, set System Area File to the path of your company's license.dat file. For example, c:\cdgen\licensej.dat 6) In Master button dialog of Layout panel of CDGEN, set License Area to J if you have a Japanese debug station. If you have an American one, set it to A. If it is European, set it to E. 7a) Set the minutes to 74 minutes. You should use 71 minute media. 74 minute might work but we don't support it. Use it at your own risk. 7b) Hit RECÉ button. Double speed record should work OK. 8) Always Verify after you bake a disc. It is that easy. Angus
PS: We need to get you the license.dat file. I know. Bug your Account Executive for it. PSPS: Note you will not see the license.dat file on final discs because it is stored in the system area

 

[Fien]

I accidentally found a S-ATA CD/DVD burner that can do 4x burning on at least the Platinum (CMC Magnetics) CD-R's It's a HP GH80N sitting in a HP Elite 8200 desktop. I never looked at it because I thought it was the same burner as in the desktop I use (HP Elite 6200), they are nearly the same desktops.

I won't say the 4x burns from the HP GH80N will be always better then the 8x ones from the NEC ND-3550, but I have a SCPH-102 with worn laser and it plays the LibCrypt-protected game Crash Team Racing fine using the 4x copy, but crashes with the 8x one, both burned on the Platinum CD-R's.

 

[FAST6191]

Did CMC magnetics come up in the world? Time was they were the byword for awful quality.

 

[SylverReZ]

Did CMC magnetics come up in the world? Time was they were the byword for awful quality.

Taiyo Yuden was bought by CMC. Their cyanine media works perfectly with me.

I accidentally found a S-ATA CD/DVD burner that can do 4x burning on at least the Platinum (CMC Magnetics) CD-R's It's a HP GH80N sitting in a HP Elite 8200 desktop. I never looked at it because I thought it was the same burner as in the desktop I use (HP Elite 6200), they are nearly the same desktops.

I won't say the 4x burns from the HP GH80N will be always better then the 8x ones from the NEC ND-3550, but I have a SCPH-102 with worn laser and it plays the LibCrypt-protected game Crash Team Racing fine using the 4x copy, but crashes with the 8x one, both burned on the Platinum CD-R's.

How come you "accidentally" found it. Don't you mean "unexpectedly"? So far pretty cool results you've got going.

 

[alexfree]

So it has recently come to my attention that essentially there is one manufacturer of CD-Rs still left. Luckily, it’s CMC Magnetics

So the atip info on I.e. the DataLifePlus or UltraLifePlus Archival Grade Gold CD-Rs is sort of lying about who is the manufacturer at this point.

So, is this our answer? Did CD-Rs become worse quality solely due to a monopoly that had an extremely poor reputation in their consumer grade CD-R media to begin with buying out every single good manufacturer?

I think it’s part of it. I think 74min discs also are much better for the PSX, my 1000 has issues ‘locking on’ and seeking around the 80min DataLifePlus discs, but once it finally settles down and finds where it actually wants to track its solid. Basically 80min = okay but longer loads and for worn drives especially maybe issues reading the discs entirely. I think that kinda proves the theory.

So maybe to somewhat answer this thread:

- All CD-Rs are now made in one way or another by CMC magnetics corp, which has a terrible reputation for their consumer grade media.

- Archival grade/pro media from CMC is much better then their other offerings (CMC Pro, Verbatim DataLifePlus, Verbatim UltraLifePlus Gold Archival Grade) but still not the same caliper as something like the Verbatim DataLifePlus CD-Rs from the 90s (copyright date 97 or 99 on the CD case).

-74min media is way easier for the PSX to read as it is closer to the real intended PSX 72min CD-ROMs then 80min media is. 74min media is all now old new stock at this point and $$$. The later PSX consoles and PS2s seem much better at handling 80min media btw compared to the older ones.

-The burner does matter, older desktop drives seem to best (IDE or SATA) but it really varies as each drive has strengths and weaknesses when it comes to the CD-R media dye and build materials, ATIP info, etc. Latop drives are the worst. External USB drives seem okay.

-Recording speed does matter, many people besides myself have confirmed 16x and higher burned CD-Rs don’t work at least for the very early PSX consoles. Again later PSX consoles are much more tolerable and just better technology all around.

https://github.com/alex-free/tonyhax/issues/30

 

[alexfree]

An experiment is under way. I did a google search "best cd burner year:2000"

and found: http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9911/05/top.CDRW.idg/index.html

Which referenced this:

https://www.cnet.com/reviews/iomega-zipcd-cd-rw-external-usb-review/

This is a CDRW USB 1.1 burner capable of 4x speed burning made in 1999.

 

[AkikoKumagara]

Don't underestimate your local thrift stores. I often stumble upon things like these for $0.50 (sometimes less) per disc.

 

[alexfree]

Don't underestimate your local thrift stores. I often stumble upon things like these for $0.50 (sometimes less) per disc.

View attachment 388009

I think those are the holly grail of PSX CD-Rs. Any with the copyright date of 1997 or 1999 like you have 1997 there. They have the real super AZO dye that is dark on the side that is burned to. What a steal

 

[SylverReZ]

I think those are the holly grail of PSX CD-Rs. Any with the copyright date of 1997 or 1999 like you have 1997 there. They have the real super AZO dye that is dark on the side that is burned to. What a steal

Those sure are amazing CD-Rs for burning PSX games. Can you show me pictures of the disc (hub, ring codes)?

 

[AkikoKumagara]

Those sure are amazing CD-Rs for burning PSX games. Can you show me pictures of the disc (hub, ring codes)?

Here's more photos of mine.

 

[alexfree]

Here's more photos of mine.

55 cents

 

[SylverReZ]

55 cents

Gosh, that's a good bargain I bet. Nowadays those types of discs are far more pricey.

 

[AkikoKumagara]

Gosh, that's a good bargain I bet. Nowadays those types of discs are far more pricey.

Not at my thrift stores

 

[SylverReZ]

Not at my thrift stores

Disc was manufactured in late-97 or 1998 it seems.

 

[alexfree]

View attachment 388015

Disc was manufactured in late-97 or 1998 it seems.

"lifetime warranty"

 

[SylverReZ]

"lifetime warranty"

Wdym? Could you elaborate on that?

 

[alexfree]

Wdym? Could you elaborate on that?

On the back of the jewel case it says that I actually believe it too having used such new old stock discs just last year. The date code lines up there are never any 1998 copyright discs that pop up on ebay just 1997 or 1999 in that style

 

[SylverReZ]

On the back of the jewel case it says that I actually believe it too having used such new old stock discs just last year. The date code lines up there are never any 1998 copyright discs that pop up on ebay just 1997 or 1999 in that style

A bit mysterious if it claims to be manufactured from 98 but not 97. Possibly a late batch? Interesting stuff regardless.

 

[alexfree]

A bit mysterious if it claims to be manufactured from 98 but not 97. Possibly a late batch? Interesting stuff regardless.

I think the label just wasn't updated until 1999 so from 1997-1998 the label is the exact same. I think the 1999 ones say '8x speed' and are a bit different but look very similar overall the design is basically the exact same on the 1999 labels.