Covid-19 vaccine

[bennet321]

I have a chronic disease and have not taken one the clot shots nor will I ever take any future ones. Have never had a covid test either. I am sitting very comfortable in my position especially considering the worldwide excess deaths that nobody seems to want to talk about for some strange reason. I wonder if those that have had the shots are as happy as I am with their decision?

 

[lolcatzuru]

I have a chronic disease and have not taken one the clot shots nor will I ever take any future ones. Have never had a covid test either. I am sitting very comfortable in my position especially considering the worldwide excess deaths that nobody seems to want to talk about for some strange reason. I wonder if those that have had the shots are as happy as I am with their decision?

wait the winter of death didnt get you either? man the numbers are racking up

 

[supermist]

There's a difference between every day people that rather not get the vaccine and hard core anti-vaxxer. It's perfectly fine to not want to get the shot and it doesn't make you stupid because you decline.

There's no logical reason to differentiate the two. If you happen to fall under the criteria of being a profoundly stupid individual by refusing the covid vaccine that's a you problem and I'll happily disrespect and put you down.

Post automatically merged: Sep 4, 2023

I have a chronic disease and have not taken one the clot shots nor will I ever take any future ones. Have never had a covid test either. I am sitting very comfortable in my position especially considering the worldwide excess deaths that nobody seems to want to talk about for some strange reason. I wonder if those that have had the shots are as happy as I am with their decision?

Pretty sure this is 100% bullshit

 

[plasturion]

I don't live in democracy anymore or at least i don't identify to belong to any group of slaves. My the only King is Jesus Christ ruller of the whole universe and I'm obligate to enjoy to live in freedom. Go vaccinate yourself suckers, believers all of this relative statistics that say nothing but only that what they want you to do.

 

[NoobletCheese]

That’s a nice graph, but you’re neglecting to account for proportions.

If you look at the y-axis you'll see it's scaled to "per 100,000 person-years"

Just say that you’ve reduced the odds by 50%

My cohort isn't 50% of the population though, so you would need to account for proportions.

It's beside the point though, which is that once you declare you aren't afraid of being in a room with 15 of me all day every day, you've crossed a risk threshold where you could no longer claim that you are so afraid of me to such an extreme extent that would justify abolishing my consent.

edit: and the 50% figure is a relative risk ratio - the absolute risk ratio is still miniscule even if we used the 50% figure. For example vegans have a 50% lower risk of type-2 diabetes, but I doubt you would care given the low absolute risk level of not being vegan.

A privately owned business can exclude you for *no reason at all* .... as long as they don’t run afoul of anti-discrimination laws... anyone can kick you out of their premises, that they own, because they’re in a bad mood that day

I'm not sure if you can discriminate against people based on their medical status, unless you can prove they're a significant threat to you.

In any case the law is not a source of morality. Do you believe that people should be forced to bake gay wedding cakes, or cakes with TRUMP 2024 written on them?

My position is that essential goods and services should be protected by law. Additionally, business owners should have a good reason for refusing goods and services because I'm rational agent and rational agents don't punish others without good reason.

 

[Foxi4]

If you look at the y-axis you'll see it's scaled to "per 100,000 person-years”

…out of which statistically the majority is accounted for by the elderly. I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove.

My cohort isn't 50% of the population though, so you would need to account for proportions.

No, I wouldn’t. You’re the one who picked “a room” as the sample size. If you pulled that 50% out of your ass then that’s on you, you played yourself. In your example, odds have dropped significantly. Whether the sample size is representative is another story, but we’re operating on imaginary numbers, so it doesn’t matter.

It's beside the point though, which is that once you declare you aren't afraid of being in a room with 15 of me all day every day, you've crossed a risk threshold where you could no longer claim that you are so afraid of me to such an extreme extent that would justify abolishing my consent.

I’m not afraid of you at all. I’m generally not afraid of things I can’t control, such as lightning. I can, however, choose not to walk across an empty field during a storm, which does reduce my odds of being hit by one. That’s a choice. I’m not in control of thunderbolts, I’m in control of me, and I can take precautions because lightning bolts are bad for my health. I’m not required, by law or otherwise, to associate with you in any way.

I'm not sure if you can discriminate against people based on their medical status, unless you can prove they're a significant threat to you.

“Unvaccinated” is not a protected class. You don’t have an “unvaccinated” disease, it’s not a medical condition, people are de facto unvaccinated until they aren’t. Being unvaccinated is not a disability - I am not legally obligated to furnish my property in a manner that allows you to use it because you have some special needs through no fault of your own. You made the decision, not me.

I don’t have to prove anything to anyone - it’s my property. In fact, you have to prove to me that you fulfil the requirements listed to enter my property. The onus is on you to meet those requirements, which is why every major event in the U.S. was well-within their legal right to request proof of vaccination from event-goers, and turn them away if they could not provide said proof, even if they had a valid ticket. They were *not* entitled to a refund because the policy was plainly stated at the point of purchase.

I would *only* run afoul of anti-discrimination laws if your vaccination status was a result of disability (you physically can’t take the vaccine that I require) or religious belief (you can’t take injections in general because a book said so). It’s on you to tell me that because I can’t see it with my eyes alone. You’d also have to argue that in court, because I wouldn’t be discriminating against you specifically based on belief or disability, in this example I’m restricting access to *anyone* who’s not vaccinated, regardless of their medical status or religious beliefs. You’re not being singled out based on those factors, the rule applies to everyone. You’d be required to prove that I am selective in enforcing the rule, so good luck doing that I suppose.

Currently, you don't have to flash your COVID-19 vaccine card in most businesses in order to shop or to get a table. However, businesses are generally free to require that customers show proof of vaccination, sometimes known as a “vaccine passport.”

Legal experts have likened the requirement to a “no shirt, no shoes, no service” policy.

"A business can absolutely ask that question," whether a customer has been vaccinated, said Lindsay Wiley, director of the Health Law and Policy Program at American University Washington College of Law, during an interview with USA TODAY.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...ss-ask-proof-vaccination-covid-19/5251954001/

Stores generally don’t do that because they like money, that doesn’t mean that I couldn’t if such was my fancy. There’s absolutely nothing you could do about it, either.

For the record, I’m against vaccine passports and other assorted nonsense of this nature because I believe medical information is private, but the notion that I can’t remove you from the premises because you think “unvaccinated” is a medical condition is absurd, your complaint would be laughed out of court. I can “discriminate against you” because you looked at me funny, you’re not entitled to enter my property, I don’t know what led you to think otherwise.

In any case the law is not a source of morality. Do you believe that people should be forced to bake gay wedding cakes, or cakes with TRUMP 2024 written on them?

No, I don’t, because I don’t believe anyone is entitled to anybody else’s services, property or labour. I believe commerce should be based on voluntary contracts. That’s precisely why you get to stand outside of my property if I say so - you’re the one trying to bend anti-discrimination law to your advantage and force your way in. That’s government-aided trespass if it were true, but it isn’t.

You cannot force me to engage in a business transaction with you. You would force me to bake you your “I’m Unvaccinated” cake and use the long arm of the law to do so if you could, metaphorically speaking. I’m not forcing you to do anything, I don’t care what you do with your life, do whatever you want. You’re the one who’s trying to force me to let you in. I’m saying no, because it’s my bakery, my cakes, my craft and my time.

It is inherently amoral to use the instrument of force (in this case the government, which has the monopoly on violence) to thrust someone into an unwanted relationship, a business one or any other kind. If I don’t want to associate with you, you’ll just have to make peace with that. If I don’t want your money, you don’t get to shove it in my pocket and just grab stuff from my shelves. If I decide you’re not getting served, you’re not getting served. You might not like it, I’m not obligated to care about that.

My position is that essential goods and services should be protected by law. Additionally, business owners should have a good reason for refusing goods and services because I'm rational agent and rational agents don't punish others without good reason.

Nothing is stopping you from ordering delivery - goods and services are available to you. You’re no more or less restricted from grocery shopping than someone who doesn’t have a driver’s license is, and I don’t see stores dispatching taxis to accommodate. Rational agents don’t try to barge into somebody else’s property despite knowing they’re not welcome. Your reasoning is rational to you because you’re standing outside wanting to get in, it’s not rational to me because I’m running a business with a lot of footfall and I don’t have the time of day to have a nuanced argument about rights with you - I’m just putting up a notice on the door and it’s on you to follow store policy or risk being ejected from my property. I have to consider my entire customer base, I’m not necessarily worried about Mr.Nooblet standing outside and complaining about a poster I put up.

 

[lolcatzuru]

…out of which statistically the majority is accounted for by the elderly. I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove.

No, I wouldn’t. You’re the one who picked “a room” as the sample size. If you pulled that 50% out of your ass then that’s on you, you played yourself. In your example, odds have dropped significantly. Whether the sample size is representative is another story, but we’re operating on imaginary numbers, so it doesn’t matter.

I’m not afraid of you at all. I’m generally not afraid of things I can’t control, such as lightning. I can, however, choose not to walk across an empty field during a storm, which does reduce my odds of being hit by one. That’s a choice. I’m not in control of thunderbolts, I’m in control of me, and I can take precautions because lightning bolts are bad for my health. I’m not required, by law or otherwise, to associate with you in any way.

“Unvaccinated” is not a protected class. You don’t have an “unvaccinated” disease, it’s not a medical condition, people are de facto unvaccinated until they aren’t. Being unvaccinated is not a disability - I am not legally obligated to furnish my property in a manner that allows you to use it because you have some special needs through no fault of your own. You made the decision, not me.

I don’t have to prove anything to anyone - it’s my property. In fact, you have to prove to me that you fulfil the requirements listed to enter my property. The onus is on you to meet those requirements, which is why every major event in the U.S. was well-within their legal right to request proof of vaccination from event-goers, and turn them away if they could not provide said proof, even if they had a valid ticket. They were *not* entitled to a refund because the policy was plainly stated at the point of purchase.

I would *only* run afoul of anti-discrimination laws if your vaccination status was a result of disability (you physically can’t take the vaccine that I require) or religious belief (you can’t take injections in general because a book said so). It’s on you to tell me that because I can’t see it with my eyes alone. You’d also have to argue that in court, because I wouldn’t be discriminating against you specifically based on belief or disability, in this example I’m restricting access to *anyone* who’s not vaccinated, regardless of their medical status or religious beliefs. You’re not being singled out based on those factors, the rule applies to everyone. You’d be required to prove that I am selective in enforcing the rule, so good luck doing that I suppose.

Stores generally don’t do that because they like money, that doesn’t mean that I couldn’t if such was my fancy. There’s absolutely nothing you could do about it, either.

For the record, I’m against vaccine passports and other assorted nonsense of this nature because I believe medical information is private, but the notion that I can’t remove you from the premises because you think “unvaccinated” is a medical condition is absurd, your complaint would be laughed out of court. I can “discriminate against you” because you looked at me funny, you’re not entitled to enter my property, I don’t know what led you to think otherwise.

No, I don’t, because I don’t believe anyone is entitled to anybody else’s services, property or labour. I believe commerce should be based on voluntary contracts. That’s precisely why you get to stand outside of my property if I say so - you’re the one trying to bend anti-discrimination law to your advantage and force your way in. That’s government-aided trespass if it were true, but it isn’t.

You cannot force me to engage in a business transaction with you. You would force me to bake you your “I’m Unvaccinated” cake and use the long arm of the law to do so if you could, metaphorically speaking. I’m not forcing you to do anything, I don’t care what you do with your life, do whatever you want. You’re the one who’s trying to force me to let you in. I’m saying no, because it’s my bakery, my cakes, my craft and my time.

It is inherently amoral to use the instrument of force (in this case the government, which has the monopoly on violence) to thrust someone into an unwanted relationship, a business one or any other kind. If I don’t want to associate with you, you’ll just have to make peace with that. If I don’t want your money, you don’t get to shove it in my pocket and just grab stuff from my shelves. If I decide you’re not getting served, you’re not getting served. You might not like it, I’m not obligated to care about that.

Nothing is stopping you from ordering delivery - goods and services are available to you. You’re no more or less restricted from grocery shopping than someone who doesn’t have a driver’s license is, and I don’t see stores dispatching taxis to accommodate. Rational agents don’t try to barge into somebody else’s property despite knowing they’re not welcome. Your reasoning is rational to you because you’re standing outside wanting to get in, it’s not rational to me because I’m running a business with a lot of footfall and I don’t have the time of day to have a nuanced argument about rights with you - I’m just putting up a notice on the door and it’s on you to follow store policy or risk being ejected from my property. I have to consider my entire customer base, I’m not necessarily worried about Mr.Nooblet standing outside and complaining about a poster I put up.

dear honorable and amazing senpai, i dont mean to disagree with someone so radiant as the sun itself, but, techincally if i do get covid and im unvaccinated i do have an unvaccinated disease.

 

[Foxi4]

dear honorable and amazing senpai, i dont mean to disagree with someone so radiant as the sun itself, but, techincally if i do get covid and im unvaccinated i do have an unvaccinated disease.

I don’t think that’s how it works, the debuffs don’t stack. You have a disease that you weren’t vaccinated against, you haven’t discovered a new malaise here, but +10 points for creative use of potentially game-breaking exploits.

 

[sarkwalvein]

Antivaxxers don't deserve respect and I'm okay with that.

To be honest I don't agree with people that don't recognize the value of well tested vaccines, because their views objectively go against data, but I still respect them as human beings.

What I cannot respect is the authoritarian self centered attitude you show, and it disappoints me that people I've esteemed would side with you without a second thought. Specially those that have been marginalized and stigmatized without reason should know better regarding the importance of being given the chance to be listened.

 

[Deleted member 586536]

To be honest I don't agree with people that don't recognize the value of well tested vaccines, because their views objectively go against data, but I still respect them as human beings.

Ah yes, because MRNA vaccine research was totally untested. Not like it dates back to 2000s and earlier or something.

What I cannot respect is the authoritarian self centered attitude you show, and it disappoints me that people I've esteemed would side with you without a second thought. Specially those that have been marginalized and stigmatized without reason should know better regarding the importance of being given the chance to be listened.

Oh the poor oppressed anti vaxxer. Having consequences for their actions with everyone calling them out. Can someone please think of the anti vaxxer?

On a side note, do you think that biological warfare on other people might encroach on their rights? Maybe when I'm sick I should cough on you or just be in public. It's just the flu right? (looks at the death count)

 

[Foxi4]

To be honest I don't agree with people that don't recognize the value of well tested vaccines, because their views objectively go against data, but I still respect them as human beings.

What I cannot respect is the authoritarian self centered attitude you show, and it disappoints me that people I've esteemed would side with you without a second thought. Specially those that have been marginalized and stigmatized without reason should know better regarding the importance of being given the chance to be listened.

All people deserve the baseline of respect. Where I personally draw a line is when they start making demands of complete strangers as if they have authority over large swaths of people, including those who disagree with them. I don’t have a problem with people who don’t want to take the vaccine - that’s fine, it’s not my body. Do what you want so long as you don’t inconvenience me on purpose. Likewise, I don’t have a problem with people who wear masks inside of their own car - not my face, I’m not the one getting cooked alive. Don’t tell me to do that though because it’s stupid - you’re in the car by yourself, who are you protecting?

 

[sarkwalvein]

Ah yes, because MRNA vaccine research was totally untested. Not like it dates back to 2000s and earlier or something.

Oh the poor oppressed anti vaxxer. Having consequences for their actions with everyone calling them out. Can someone please think of the anti vaxxer?

On a side note, do you think that biological warfare on other people might encroach on their rights? Maybe when I'm sick I should cough on you or just be in public. It's just the flu right? (looks at the death count)

I expect you and everybody to show respect, avoid coughing on other people and if you are coughing plenty at least use a mask to avoid your disgusting bodily fluid to get in somebody else's face, better yet if you are sick stay home. This is not a covid-related policy, I expect in general people would behave this way (respectful, non-negligent).

It seems I expect to much when I expect respect. But even if you got vaccinated that doesn't change a thing, cough in my face intentionally and I will punch your skull inwards. What the hell is that kind of behavior? That is looking for trouble, it is not about sickness or hygiene anymore, it is just disrespect.

Regarding the Covid-19 (MRNA based and not MRNA based) vaccines, those developed the last couple of years, I don't think they have been well tested for long term side effects, even if the technology used to develop them has been researched for and used in vaccines for a long time (but not for a Covid19 vaccine). The amount of long term effect testing back in early 2021 was very limited in my opinion, it was up to the person to take the risk or not, I did take the risk and got vaccinated, but I would have respected any other person that wasn't willing to take that risk.

 

[lolcatzuru]

I don’t think that’s how it works, the debuffs don’t stack. You have a disease that you weren’t vaccinated against, you haven’t discovered a new malaise here, but +10 points for creative use of potentially game-breaking exploits.

can i get a rulebook check? lots of games i play the debuffs stack.

 

[Foxi4]

can i get a rulebook check? lots of games i play the debuffs stack.

*Sigh* Roll perception.

 

[supermist]

To be honest I don't agree with people that don't recognize the value of well tested vaccines, because their views objectively go against data, but I still respect them as human beings.

What I cannot respect is the authoritarian self centered attitude you show, and it disappoints me that people I've esteemed would side with you without a second thought. Specially those that have been marginalized and stigmatized without reason should know better regarding the importance of being given the chance to be listened.

I don't respect the people responsible for making covid endemic

 

[Chrisssj2]

It's sad people have to cope with myocarditis among other things now. Hope no one will ever take another vaccine.

 

[bennet321]

Pretty sure this is 100% bullshit

What is so hard to believe about it. I am a type 1 diabetic who did not get any of the shots. There are probably many of us out there

 

[lolcatzuru]

*Sigh* Roll perception.

i activate my trap card! skull dice!

 

[supermist]

What is so hard to believe about it. I am a type 1 diabetic who did not get any of the shots. There are probably many of us out there

https://diabetes.org/coronavirus-covid-19/vaccination-guide

Again, full of shit

 

[bennet321]

https://diabetes.org/coronavirus-covid-19/vaccination-guide

Again, full of shit

How does that prove I didn't have it? In all it says is that the CDC which doesn't really concern me as I am not American are prioritizing access to covid vaccines for type 1 and 2 diabetics.