atheism

[Ace Gunman]

Friends, Romans, Countrymen! Lend me your eyes and ears! I have before me, the answers to your questions...


For the atheist-type:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IlHgbOWj4o


For the religious-type:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO8SJmcXl6E

 

[Dirtie]

Secondly, the Bible is not literal truth. If you think that you are a moron. FACT.

That's a very generalised statement to make (and an arrogant one but I won't worry about that) - can you be more specific? The vast majority of experts (religious and non-religious) believe the Bible has at least some historical authenticity - or were you getting at something else?

 

[Ace Gunman]

Secondly, the Bible is not literal truth. If you think that you are a moron. FACT.

That's a very generalised statement to make (and an arrogant one but I won't worry about that) - can you be more specific?

He probably means that the Bible has been translated and mistranslated so many times over the years that many of the true meanings and events have been turned into glorified fairytales. The current versions that most people are aware of today are essentially the products of hundreds of years of the telephone game.

Jill to Jim: I'm going to the mall.

Jim to Hailey: Jill's going to the mall to buy a present.

Hailey to Winston: Jill's going to the mall to buy you a present.

Winston to Freddy: Jill's going to get me a great gift!

Freddy to Lisa: Winston is getting a car!

Lisa to Jill: Winston's getting a Viper!

 

[TGBoy]

He probably means that the Bible has been translated and mistranslated so many times over the years that many of the true meanings and events have been turned into glorified fairytales. The current versions that most people are aware of today are essentially the products of hundreds of years of the telephone game.

Well most of the original documents still remains. Dead Sea Scrolls, etc

 

[Ace Gunman]

He probably means that the Bible has been translated and mistranslated so many times over the years that many of the true meanings and events have been turned into glorified fairytales. The current versions that most people are aware of today are essentially the products of hundreds of years of the telephone game.



Well most of the original documents still remains. Dead Sea Scrolls, etc

I didn't say that they no longer exist, just that the copies most people have access to are horribly mistranslated. Examples: The story of Moses parting the "red sea" is actually a story about them walking across the "reed sea" a weird little area of water that was hip deep (or something) and could be walked right across. And the story of the fallen Angel Lucifer is actually a mistranslation of a story about a fallen king.

 

[dakeyras]

He probably means that the Bible has been translated and mistranslated so many times over the years that many of the true meanings and events have been turned into glorified fairytales.

Impossible! It's the word of God!

 

[Dirtie]

He probably means that the Bible has been translated and mistranslated so many times over the years that many of the true meanings and events have been turned into glorified fairytales. The current versions that most people are aware of today are essentially the products of hundreds of years of the telephone game.



Well most of the original documents still remains. Dead Sea Scrolls, etc

I didn't say that they didn't exist, just that the copies most people have access to are horribly mistranslated. Examples: The story of Moses parting the "red sea" is actually a story about them walking across the "reed sea" a weird little area of water that was hip deep (or something) and could be walked right across. And the story of the fallen Angel Lucifer is actually a mistranslation of a story about a fallen king.

This is a myth that has been perpetuated over and over, but even some of the most anti-biblical debatists would not bother touching on this point because they know it's (for the most part) a fruitless argument. Almost every book of the Bible as we know it was assembled from multiple independent manuscripts, and in the case of the New Testament, different languages. These manuscripts are verified for their authenticity, translated and retranslated constantly, differences (if any) determined (and if any are found the most common one across manuscripts is used), and then it's all collated into that big black book. It's not a 110% fool-proof process, but there are a lot of scholars/experts who put a lot of work into getting the Bible as accurate as possible. There are other historical documents widely accepted as fact that have nowhere near as many sources (sometimes there is only one) and many of these don't certainly don't go through such a labourious and painstaking process.

 

[TGBoy]

And the story of the fallen Angel Lucifer is actually a mistranslation of a story about a fallen king.

Wrong. Ur referrin to Isaiah and Ezekiel passages and its seems its referin to the kings. However, it is to the power behind the kings that this is actually addressed.
The passage in Ezekiel it is given, "the anointed cherub." These statements could never apply to a human king but apply to Lucifer who is behind the human king. Readin the passages makes it obvious the statements do not apply to a human.

 

[Dirtie]

Oh and...

Religious nuts always try so hard, and fail even harder because they don't realize one simple thing.

You can insult atheists all you want. But you'll always be the idiots in that battle, because atheism can be destroyed with only ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE.

Go on, now. Present your evidence, and God wins. OR, you can keep looking like a dumbass religious zealot.

Well ok, let's say a God provides concrete proof of his existance that can't be denied by anyone; hang on, what's our reason for existing again? What are we but mere puppets if we can't make choice - in this case the choice to believe in a God. From this you could even say (and many people do) that the human ability to make decisions (based on a mix of logic and conscience) is the very meaning of life itself.

If heaven exists and a God wants people to live there, does he want mindless followers who have no choice but to believe, or does he want people who have faith in him even in the face of scoffing and adversary?

Many people would say there is evidence of God in nature, human behaviour, etc. If it's there, it's certainly not definitive from a scientific point of view, but that's the whole point - people can make their own minds up based on their own observation and experiences.

 

[azotyp]

Im a scepticall type, but theory that universe was self created with some big bang is full of crap (if universe was like made by big explosion, so what created that explosion, if in previous time there were nothing), that's why i believe in GOD.

 

[Ace Gunman]

These manuscripts are verified for their authenticity, translated and retranslated constantly

That was my point. No translation is fully accurate. Even now they continue to update everything with the latest findings. More importantly translation and interpretation would differ from scholar to scholar. It's an ever-evolving series of findings. The problem is these findings aren't widely known. It's not as if every Christian is willing to upgrade their Bible annually to the latest "version". If anything I would imagine a process like that would lower the number of people who are unwavering in their belief.

Version 1 of what we know as the modern Bible: "This is the Bible! It is the word of God. EVERYTHING IS ACCURATE. IF YOU AY OTHERWISE YOU GO TO HELL"

Version 2: "This is version 2, the last one was a bit off, our bad. But THIS version is 100% accurate, to doubt it is to commit the ultimate sin!"

Version 3: "Ooookay, turns out our last version was WAAAAAAAAAAAY off. But this one, this is the real deal."

Version 4: "Uhhh... um... new version guys. Guys? Where are you going! I swear this FINAL version it's accurate! I SWEAR ON THE HOLY BIBLE."

Version 5: "You know what? F%#& this. I've been a religious devotee for years, preaching the word of this so-called book of ULTIMATE TRUTH."

My point is, all these different versions, all these different interpretations, most of the general religious population probably doesn't even know what the CURRENT "truth" is.

 

[Ace Gunman]

Im a scepticall type, but theory that universe was self created with some big bang is full of crap (if universe was like made by big explosion, so what created that explosion, if in previous time there were nothing), that's why i believe in GOD.

Not to try and defame your beliefs, but the reverse could be true as well. If the universe can't create itself without a big bang, caused by something before that, and something before that, and so on... then the same could be true of a deity. If God can create himself, so to can the universe. The theory goes both ways. Anyone who disagrees with that isn't giving an unbiased opinion. I'm not saying I subscribe to either theory, but if one thing can create itself, so can the other.

 

[dakeyras]

From this you could even say (and many people do) that the human ability to make decisions (based on a mix of logic and conscience) is the very meaning of life itself.

Who says we can make decisions? That's a rather rash statement there. Free will is something that is hard to proof.

edit: And why would that just be a human ability? If we do make decisions, we make them all the time, just not about our stance on religion but also about what we eat, which direction we walk in, when/where we pee etc. It would be an ability of other animals as well.

 

[Dirtie]

Ace: If new differences in translation are made, 99.99% of the time it is of no consequence to overall meaning of the passage of text. Professional modern translations all convey the same thing, and even the first Bible translated was pretty damn accurate.

From this you could even say (and many people do) that the human ability to make decisions (based on a mix of logic and conscience) is the very meaning of life itself.

Who says we can make decisions? That's a rather rash statement there. Free will is something that is hard to proof.


Wait it is? So all our actions (and therefore the actions of every single piece of matter, since it all has influence and is influenced) are pre-destined no matter what our brain is deciding on logically?

Personally, that's not something I can even begin to agree with but it's an interesting notion nonetheless.

QUOTE(dakeyras @ Nov 24 2007, 12:33 AM)And why would that just be a human ability? If we do make decisions, we make them all the time, just not about our stance on religion but also about what we eat, which direction we walk in, when/where we pee etc. It would be an ability of other animals as well.

That's why I threw conscience in there. Not to mention our cognitive abilities are many orders of magnitude above any other animal living on Earth. These are what make us unique.

 

[TGBoy]

Free will is something God gave u. You have ur choices. The choice u make is ur free will.

God knows the future of what u choose. Free will does not stop becoming free because God knows what will happen.

Predestined and all starts to happen when we try to bring logic to something beyond our comprehension.

 

[dakeyras]

Wait it is? So all our actions (and therefore the actions of every single piece of matter, since it all has influence and is influenced) are pre-destined no matter what our brain is deciding on logically?

Actually, that was not what I meant. I meant that it is possible that free will is a farce. Something that we think we have but do not possess. I do not say everything is predestined, I'm saying that it is possible that we, ourselves, have no influence on our own behaviour/thoughts. That does not limit possibilities however.

Is it my free will that decides I'm not sure about whether some kind of God exists or not? Or is that simply a chemical reaction in my body that balances that way?

 

[Westside]

@veho, Chaos theory is the theory that states that everything can be mathematically modeled. It's actually pretty cool. The thinkers of this theory says that although it is chaotic, it is possible to graph and find pattern in everything in life, like weather and such. It is called chaotic dynamics because scientists wanted to find pattern in nature which has a rather un-graphable, or chaotic pattern.
In a way, I guess it is trying to prove that destiny real. If everything can be graphed, than what happens next will be predicted, and therefore everything was meant to happen, like how one day (IF, that's a big if), theory is true and scientists can predict the future, they will find out things like: "Westside will jerk off at exactly 18:37:12 today". It will come ture... Freaky, I know

, but this theory was often made fun of by the science community.

 

[Hitto]

Go on and live your pathetic and meaningless life. You are one pessimistic, unhappy, jerk. Religion is not all about believing that one entity that rules all, it's about guiding us in a righteous, ethical, and moral path. Although there are many who claims to be "religious" and sin at the same time, they do not represent the rest of us, and those I do not respect. However, you have no reason to look down on all religious people, as much as I do not look down on all atheists. On top of that, can atheists themselves provide a solid evidence that God is not real? Until aesthetics have complete evidence, what you said was completely useless. You stand on the same ground as us. I don not hate non-hypocritical atheists, and I look upon every human being in equal grounds no matter what background or religion they have, I am open minded. You are almost the same as the very people you are trying to insult. Believing in a religion does not make you a "dumbass". I hate those hypocritical atheistic bastards who thinks religious people are automatically idiots. The greatest minds in the history were religious. Einstein once said: "Atheists Miss the Wonder of the World". Although I do not completely agree with that comment, I've seen one too many pessimistic atheists.

Hey, keep the attitude in check. I don't have anything against people with imaginary friends in the sky. Except when they plant bombs in the name of jihad. Or unleash their full-force nerd rage. Learn to parse sentences, dude! I was talking about the religious NUTS, not against any honest people who fear god. Go ahead, read at least once that post of mine you quoted!
But honestly, among most religious people I know, religion is a dangerous gateway toward surrendering personal responsibility and personal freedom. Deists like Voltaire or Einstein have typically more open minds than people who hate pork, women, gays, blacks, "outsiders to the flock", and it is true that a lot of atheists have simplistic reasonings; But to call out atheism because they can't bring proof of something that doesn't exist? What the fuck is wrong with you? I don't go around asking people to prove Superman doesn't exist. That would make me look stupid! Last, why call me a pessimist? Please prove why not believing in god makes you pessimistic? Because I said the only way to get rid of atheists is to present one, solid, *proof* of god's existence? Look at that poor kid just three posts up who thinks everything he will do in life is due to predestination. Tell me if *that* isn't pessimistic!

 

[Veho]

"Westside will jerk off at exactly 18:37:12 today". It will come ture... Freaky, I know

,

See? See? Some things man was not meant to know!!!!

 

[Sonicslasher]

These manuscripts are verified for their authenticity, translated and retranslated constantly

That was my point. No translation is fully accurate. Even now they continue to update everything with the latest findings. More importantly translation and interpretation would differ from scholar to scholar. It's an ever-evolving series of findings. The problem is these findings aren't widely known. It's not as if every Christian is willing to upgrade their Bible annually to the latest "version". If anything I would imagine a process like that would lower the number of people who are unwavering in their belief.

Version 1 of what we know as the modern Bible: "This is the Bible! It is the word of God. EVERYTHING IS ACCURATE. IF YOU AY OTHERWISE YOU GO TO HELL"

Version 2: "This is version 2, the last one was a bit off, our bad. But THIS version is 100% accurate, to doubt it is to commit the ultimate sin!"

Version 3: "Ooookay, turns out our last version was WAAAAAAAAAAAY off. But this one, this is the real deal."

Version 4: "Uhhh... um... new version guys. Guys? Where are you going! I swear this FINAL version it's accurate! I SWEAR ON THE HOLY BIBLE."

Version 5: "You know what? F%#& this. I've been a religious devotee for years, preaching the word of this so-called book of ULTIMATE TRUTH."

My point is, all these different versions, all these different interpretations, most of the general religious population probably doesn't even know what the CURRENT "truth" is.

lol, so true....