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[Discussion] Your views on religion.

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x65943

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The only explanation I have for that comes from my own religion and religious teachings, and I don't want to force anything on anybody so I will keep that quiet unless somebody wants to hear it.
Yeah I understand.

All I'm saying is that you say God won't take away one's will - but he has done it in the past. So for me it doesn't make sense that he allowed such an atrocity to take place when in the past he has killed people for masturbating one time and spilling seed on the earth.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Then prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the universe is as it is presented, and that our senses are not being fooled. This isn't "make me prove it's not real? prove it is" so much as it is "Our mortal minds aren't gonna understand this shit, but I openly welcome you to try"

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------


I don't push narratives, that's for tools. I do however doubt the rationalwiki since any "wiki" presenting itself as rational while making arguments that clearly take one side over the other while painting the other as irrational is to be taken with a grain of salt. You'd be easier to take seriously linking unbiased sources.

>You'd be easier to take seriously linking unbiased sources
I don't endorse the wiki - only the list of people god has killed. Which if you doubt the veracity please look into the appropriate passages (As I have) and refute the killings. Because they are all biblical.
 
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Then challange it! Do not accept the answer as "I'm not smart enough". That's what got us stuck in the freaking middle ages. We kickstarted a lot for humanity today. Before we could look at the moon, then we landed and walked on it and today we know we can again step on it.
Except my previous posts have been discussing the topic of it. There's nothing to challenge it with beyond "well it isn't as it seems" and that's as far as it goes, and even then that's a stretch, it's really more in the realm of statements like "It probably isn't as it seems, there's no way to verify that it's presented existence is all there is to it."

If you question literally everything for the sake of questioning everything instead of questioning what you are able to, and looking further into things based on the evidence and information that is available, you're just going to end up wasting time and brainpower best used in other, more suitable questions.

I make no claims that the world is exactly as presented. Just as I make no claim that we can understand the universe.

My issue is that you do claim that it is impossible to comprehend the world.

You may very well be correct. I am just asking you to acknowledge that there is no evidence to back up your claim and that it's merely an opinion.
It's not an opinion though. Our senses are easily fooled. The mere existence of things called "hallucinations" prove this. The point I continuously make, that gets you in the world's biggest tizzy, is that we as mortals are not going to be able to comprehend that the world presented to us by our senses is objectively, without a doubt, as it is presented. It's a fact of life. We have no proper way of investigating this, only theories. There's nothing that definitively says the world is as it seems without any room of questioning whatsoever.
 

x65943

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Except my previous posts have been discussing the topic of it. There's nothing to challenge it with beyond "well it isn't as it seems" and that's as far as it goes, and even then that's a stretch, it's really more in the realm of statements like "It probably isn't as it seems, there's no way to verify that it's presented existence is all there is to it."

If you question literally everything for the sake of questioning everything instead of questioning what you are able to, and looking further into things based on the evidence and information that is available, you're just going to end up wasting time and brainpower best used in other, more suitable questions.


It's not an opinion though. Our senses are easily fooled. The mere existence of things called "hallucinations" prove this. The point I continuously make, that gets you in the world's biggest tizzy, is that we as mortals are not going to be able to comprehend that the world presented to us by our senses is objectively, without a doubt, as it is presented. It's a fact of life. We have no proper way of investigating this, only theories. There's nothing that definitively says the world is as it seems without any room of questioning whatsoever.
Just because you can be fooled does not mean you cannot discern the truth.

And we cannot know if the world is as it seems - however this does not mean that it is not as it seems.

My point is that we could very well come to a good understanding of the world. And it's just as ridiculous to say we will understand everything, as we can never understand existence - mainly because there is no evidence in either direction.
 

Xathya

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Oh an intresting thread!
I'm very much against all forms of religion. For me, religion is just a powertool, a tool to brainwash people, a tool to force people out of money.
The lack of hiding behind the claws of "It's gods will" etc. is such a bad excuse for a despicable behaviour from a lot of people.
*coughs* robret trilons *coughs(*
 

DeoNaught

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Before I start, I just want all to know I mean to Offend no one.
Maybe because there has yet to be definitive proof that God exists.
Do you have proof he doesn't? like something set in stone that says "God does not exist"


I really like this.

My religion was founded because the founder was constantly being introduced to new religions, so he went and prayed to God for assistance and from there the religion was founded.
(Correct me if I am wrong) Wasn't it because he didn't like how the Catholic Church was doing, and how they were "Selling" Indulgences?(which they weren't btw, Common misconception)


Catholicism just makes me cringe
How so?

>God will not take away a person's ability to choose just because it doesn't seem morally correct
God killed people in the old testament liberally (if you believe in the old testament)

~snip~

From an Abrahamic tradition god was very involved until he inexplicably stopped doing anything during recorded history.
He did, There was a flood aswell(Killed all, except a few), because Humans were corrupt, and there was a small number that wasn't.
I don't trust that article, because anything online doesn't have it's fact backed.

Aight, I need to get to bed, I'll post a better comment, if it's not locked tomorrow
 

chrisrlink

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being a cetain religion can turn Adamation and devoutness into intolerance and hatred (speaking from experiance cause I was Muslim for a breif period also some ppl go overboard in the devoutness (my future father in law (from my brother getting married in march) the way i feel for a lack of a better word a crazy devout Christan (and very inappropriate) an example he was insulting to other religions (literally wanted to punch him in the fucking face) durring my bro's and his fiance's engagement dinner (I don't blame her she looked rather pissed at her dad) another angle bout islam is the fact how women are so restricted while men could do as they please w/o the woman's say but being converted as the only means of getting married i'm just glad i backed out in time
 

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God is apperantly okay with Incest and abortion though. ;D

And yes.. I have proof that an all loving omnipotent god does not exist. Just look at all the people hurt with disease and starving to death and being shot to death.

Now an asshole of a god... ehh. But still. At least Zeus and those guys came down from high and was "Knock that shit off."

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

being a cetain religion can turn Adamation and devoutness into intolerance and hatred (speaking from experiance cause I was Muslim for a breif period also some ppl go overboard in the devoutness (my future father in law (from my brother getting married in march) the way i feel for a lack of a better word a crazy devout Christan (and very inappropriate) an example he was insulting to other religions (literally wanted to punch him in the fucking face) durring my bro's and his fiance's engagement dinner (I don't blame her she looked rather pissed at her dad) another angle bout islam is the fact how women are so restricted while men could do as they please w/o the woman's say but being converted as the only means of getting married i'm just glad i backed out in time

Not a lot different than Christianity. Did you know women are supposed to cover their hair or go around bald according to the bible?
 

osaka35

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Religion is captivating, engrossing, and gives meaning. It's all illusionary, though.

There is no inherent meaning in, or to, the universe. What meaning there is to give is given by you. What meaning you get from the universe is created by you. in particular.

In this way, religion allows people to apply a larger-than-thou meaning to everything that happens. The mythologies and legends that surround the justification for religion, and spirituality for that matter, are just made-up. But that doesn't make them any less meaningful to those who wish to believe in them.

So, religion is fine as a personal choice. If it gives you meaning, then it gives you meaning. But there is no real reason to believe in any gods or external purpose to the universe.

We just want our lives to have meaning. So groups of humans have made up various stories that gave the illusion of a universe with some inherent meaning. It's kinda sad in a way, but very endearing. You humans are pretty adorable sometimes. Except when you argue about the stories and turn that meaning into justification for hate. Not cute. Not endearing. Stop that stuff.
 
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GhostLatte

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x65943

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Before I start, I just want all to know I mean to Offend no one.

Do you have proof he doesn't? like something set in stone that says "God does not exist"



(Correct me if I am wrong) Wasn't it because he didn't like how the Catholic Church was doing, and how they were "Selling" Indulgences?(which they weren't btw, Common misconception)



How so?


He did, There was a flood aswell(Killed all, except a few), because Humans were corrupt, and there was a small number that wasn't.
I don't trust that article, because anything online doesn't have it's fact backed.

Aight, I need to get to bed, I'll post a better comment, if it's not locked tomorrow
It's pretty disingenuous to dismiss the list when you haven't even looked at it.

All of the entries list the passage in the Bible so it's very easy to fact check each instance. It's not exactly an unknown fact that God killed a lot of people.

The least you could do is try to verify your suspicion.
 
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God is apperantly okay with Incest and abortion though. ;D
It's for shit like this that atheists are never taken seriously, you know.

If you read the bible, something I'm certain you didn't, you would know that Incest was one of the first things outright forbidden by Judaism. It was only allowed when "necessary to continue the specie", or the equivalent of being alone in a deserted island.
 

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I believe Religion was a way to explain what people couldn't explain, a way to get comfort, as well as the basis of laws, a reason to have to follow these rules. As it evolved, it became a way to control these masses, people love to be in control, and what better way than to use fear of eternal damnation. You only have to look into some of the verses where it mentions stoning, sale of women, can't eat this or can't wear that to truly see it was about control.
 

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It's for shit like this that atheists are never taken seriously, you know.

If you read the bible, something I'm certain you didn't, you would know that Incest was one of the first things outright forbidden by Judaism. It was only allowed when "necessary to continue the specie", or the equivalent of being alone in a deserted island.

Uh.. The story about Noah's ark directly countradicts that. As his family was the only one spared. Care to tell me how his family repopulated the world?

So.. it's still okay.

I mean, like MOST of the stories of the bible it contradicts other parts. So yes I was being a bit fecitious there, but it the point remains. Even if was only "allowed to continue the species" it's still contradictory. Are you allowed to steal because it was "necessary to feed you kids?" No you go to jail.

Besides there is Exodus 6:20: Amram married his father's sister Jochebed, and she bore him Aaron and Moses; and the length of Amram's life was one hundred and thirty-seven years.

And Genesis 20:12-13: "Besides, she actually is my sister, the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother, and she became my wife; and it came about, when God caused me to wander from my father's house, that I said to her, 'This is the kindness which you will show to me: everywhere we go, say of me, "He is my brother."'"

I'm not saying there are quotes that condem them. But there is also indications that it's perfectly okay.

However, it still remains that Leviticus 19:19: States such things as: You are to keep My statutes. You shall not breed together two kinds of your cattle; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed, nor wear a garment upon you of two kinds of material mixed together.

And did you know god actually told people to smash people against rocks and to rip out women's wombs?

Lets also not forget that god couldn't keep is own story straight and altered the 10 commandments.
 
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Tough question. Okay...I'll post my opinion, but I perhaps have to state first that I only glanced at other replies and side-discussions. I will not be partaking in any, but reply directly to the OP. Meaning...this piece:
With constant growth of the disbelief in God (or the belief in no God) and tensions between different religions, religion has constantly become a hot topic. Certain religions have been changing their doctrine to fit modern society to make themselves more appealing. Personally, I am not fond of this approach, because you shouldn't have to change the fundamental prospects of your religion to get somebody to join it. The basis of a religion is the belief in something, but changing those beliefs to make it more appealing just seems wrong -- one could argue it seems that it doesn't make it a true religion.

Anyways, I just want to get your opinion on what a religion and why you do(n't) follow one.

I think the constant growth of disbelief comes from the evergrowing means to communicate. Back when all you had was your own community, it was much easier to share your beliefs with others. And this was for good cause, because the doctrines most if not all religions share had an underlying goal or intention on them that made the community stronger (incest was bad because offspring often ended up being behind or backwards; stealing divided the community members, and so on). Even now seemingly strange rituals like the prohibition of pig meat was (according to people whom I personally choose to believe) because pig meat was, at that time, unable to be conserved for a long time (meaning: it could kill you if it wasn't fresh enough). These things were good. Most of the mantra's still are (sharing and equality are often preached). So on that front, I can't fault religion for giving people moral anchors to guide them through this life.

Personally, I'm agnostic and closer to atheist, but certainly not an active one. And I'd consider myself a humanist before that, though it's often not regarded as something religious. In any case, I believe in mankind. We're...what? 7 billion people? That's a pretty large number, so of course things can go wrong. Murder, robbery, stealing...all sorts of crimes. And on larger scale: war and oppression. But that's the side the media feeds us. The media constantly reports on these issues but usually fails to mention that for all these steps back, we take huge-ass steps forward. No matter how miserable we feel, we've got things better than ever before. There may be a huge gap in equality, but even the poorest of the poor are now richer than they used to be. Things like pollution and starvation still happens, but not on the scale that it once was.

And to bring it back to religion: it's in a time of crisis partially because - ironically - things are so looking up. If the worst thing we're afraid of is a terrorist attack, we don't really have much to be afraid of. And in case that sounds strange: the chance of dying in such an attack are smaller than dying in traffic. And it's a HUGE MAGNITUDE lower in probability than dying of things that were common about a hundred years ago.
And as I started this post: it's about community too. We don't live in isolated towns anymore. We're connected to the entire world. Having Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, atheists and all sorts of religious people talk to one another doesn't always go smoothly (see also: a huge amount of earlier posts :P ), but at least these talks are done TO EACH OTHER. Values and principles are questioned, yes. And that can feel threatening. But these values and principles could also have been wrong to begin with. And I'm not saying this to step on anyone's toes (though I admit it'll probably be taken serious), but because I believe that values and principles that can't stand a bit of self-examination isn't worth cherishing. I don't mind rituals, holy places or other ways of life (as far as they leave me my own beliefs). But whatever you might get out of it may be your own strength. No matter how well your intentions, you shouldn't push it. And no matter how strange the religious (or lack thereof) others might seem to you, you should accept them for who they are rather than attempt to make others fit into your world view.
 

DeoNaught

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Do you have proof that unicorns don't exist? Exactly! You don't.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
yeah Okay, maybe.

I'm curious, DeoNaught, if you are fine with your God supporting rape in the Old Testament. Or you just cherry pick your Bible pasages like other Christians?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+31:7-18

"And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."
To be taken as House servants, etc etc, not sexual servants.
Yano, some might have, but I don't think that's what it's saying, although it could be it, I won't deny it.
on slaves, according to the law, they have to be set free after around Seven years(I don't remember the exact amount of time), unless the servant wanted to stay.
Another thing, in the Mosaic law, it was forbidden to have love with someone's wife, and vice versa, you could in fact get stoned(in the literal sense) to death.

Another thing: The Bible is not factually sound, and the bible does not prove the Church.
 

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