[Discussion] Your views on religion.

[MaverickWellington]

>There's infinitely more at play than just what happens to mortals.
Source?

The very universe itself. People are, and have been questioning it's existence and status as a whole, if it's even remotely as it seems, for years. Before we can discern the nature of a higher power, we must first discern the nature of our own existence, and if it is truly as it seems, or if we have been deluded all this time. I don't have a reason nor excuse for why bad things happen, they just do, but I don't believe a deity should be responsible to prevent absolutely all of them. A higher power would not conform to the will and morals of mortal men, otherwise he'd be no different from us besides his massive proverbial stick to wave around as the head honcho.

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But does Religion still belong in the 21st century? Isn't it passé now when we got a lot of social coverage and other means to care for our fellow man than hopes of a scripture?

Yes, because there's nothing wrong with having it present even today. Religion is not just a safety net of an after life. It typically brings moral values and a philosophy on life itself. Religion is something that's inevitable in society as a whole.

 

[x65943]

The very universe itself. People are, and have been questioning it's existence and status as a whole, if it's even remotely as it seems, for years. Before we can discern the nature of a higher power, we must first discern the nature of our own existence, and if it is truly as it seems, or if we have been deluded all this time. I don't have a reason nor excuse for why bad things happen, they just do, but I don't believe a deity should be responsible to prevent absolutely all of them. A higher power would not conform to the will and morals of mortal men, otherwise he'd be no different from us besides his massive proverbial stick to wave around as the head honcho.

>The very universe itself
But everything we know about the universe is through a mortal lens - hence anything you can bring up is necessarily affecting mortals - as you are a mortal and you know about it.

It's impossible to refute what I said because - as per definition - you can only know about things that somehow affect mortals.

 

[linuxares]

Yes, because there's nothing wrong with having it present even today. Religion is not just a safety net of an after life. It typically brings moral values and a philosophy on life itself. Religion is something that's inevitable in society as a whole.

Most of those morals, valuves and philosophy have nothing to do with religion but culture differences. Example is the death penalty. I think it's grousome and immoral. But a lot of people (religions and none religions) thinks it's an important process in the justice system. So no, this is all culture and not religion.

 

[MaverickWellington]

>The very universe itself
But everything we know about the universe is through a mortal lens - hence anything you can bring up is necessarily affecting mortals - as you are a mortal and you know about it.

It's impossible to refute what I said because - as per definition - you can only know about things that somehow affect mortals.

You've missed my point. The point I'm making is that there is more going on than we will be able to comprehend. Before we can begin to understand the morality of a higher power, and how it works, we must understand the true nature of our world, which is impossible. It was to put into scale and perspective how such things would occur.

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Most of those morals, valuves and philosophy have nothing to do with religion but culture differences. Example is the death penalty. I think it's grousome and immoral. But a lot of people (religions and none religions) thinks it's an important process in the justice system. So no, this is all culture and not religion.

I'm pretty sure the religious texts around "do no evil" and so on are pretty moral, I dunno about you though.

 

[Deleted User]

The best argument for lack of a compassionate Christian god is the holocaust.

God will not take away a person's ability to choose just because it doesn't seem morally correct, if it takes another's life. That is true compassion, giving all the ability to do as they please.

 

[linuxares]

Also about the universe. I'm so annoyed about the Big Bang. What was before it? How came nothing to be everything? If there is a deity that created it, what created the deity?

 

[x65943]

You've missed my point. The point I'm making is that there is more going on than we will be able to comprehend. Before we can begin to understand the morality of a higher power, and how it works, we must understand the true nature of our world, which is impossible. It was to put into scale and perspective how such things would occur.

>there is more going on than we will be able to comprehend
>we must understand the true nature of our world, which is impossible
This is an assumption, and completely baseless. You can't prove anything that you're saying - other than your "intuition".

 

[linuxares]

You've missed my point. The point I'm making is that there is more going on than we will be able to comprehend. Before we can begin to understand the morality of a higher power, and how it works, we must understand the true nature of our world, which is impossible. It was to put into scale and perspective how such things would occur.

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I'm pretty sure the religious texts around "do no evil" and so on are pretty moral, I dunno about you though.

But is doing another evil the right way to deal with evil?

 

[MaverickWellington]

But is doing another evil the right way to deal with evil?

Right and wrong are things people get caught up on, what's important is if it's necessary, hence the term, "necessary evil."
You could argue casting those to a realm of eternal damnation is an evil act, but for those who are truly wicked who deserve it, it could be deemed a "necessary evil."

 

[Deleted User]

Also about the universe. I'm so annoyed about the Big Bang. What was before it? How came nothing to be everything? If there is a deity that created it, what created the deity?

Don't think about it. This is a problem because our brain has limits. We can't do things such as visualize the fourth because that would require taking 3 dimensional objects and treating them as if they were 2D. By trying to imagine this, you are only straining yourself. All answers come in due time.

 

[MaverickWellington]

>there is more going on than we will be able to comprehend
>we must understand the true nature of our world, which is impossible
This is an assumption, and completely baseless. You can't prove anything that you're saying - other than your "intuition".

Explain to me what's baseless about "before we can understand this shit, we must understand the impossible." While you're at it, try proving me wrong. It's simple logic. Dunno what you're so hung up over.

 

[x65943]

God will not take away a person's ability to choose just because it doesn't seem morally correct, if it takes another's life. That is true compassion, giving all the ability to do as they please.

>God will not take away a person's ability to choose just because it doesn't seem morally correct
God killed people in the old testament liberally (if you believe in the old testament)

Here's a long list https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people

From an Abrahamic tradition god was very involved until he inexplicably stopped doing anything during recorded history.

 

[MaverickWellington]

>God will not take away a person's ability to choose just because it doesn't seem morally correct
God killed people in the old testament liberally (if you believe in the old testament)

Here's a long list https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people

From an Abrahamic tradition god was very involved until he inexplicably stopped doing anything during recorded history.

>Rationalwiki
oh, well that explains a lot

 

[x65943]

Explain to me what's baseless about "before we can understand this shit, we must understand the impossible." While you're at it, try proving me wrong. It's simple logic. Dunno what you're so hung up over.

You say it's impossible to understand reality - but you have no proof of this.

There is a long history of humans tackling problems and making sense of the world.

Further since you are the one making an absolute statement the onus is on you to prove your statement.

Your rebuttal is as senseless as a theist who says. "Make me prove God is real? How about you prove he isn't"

 

[linuxares]

Don't think about it. This is a problem because our brain has limits. We can't do things such as visualize the fourth because that would require taking 3 dimensional objects and treating them as if they were 2D. By trying to imagine this, you are only straining yourself. All answers come in due time.

I don't agree, if we still believed our mind was limited, we still would all live in the stoneage. Evolution takes time that I get. There is a paradox that I can't remember the name of that the Universe created itself, but at a later stage. Family Guy had an episode on it but I can't for the world remember the paradox name.

Right and wrong are things people get caught up on, what's important is if it's necessary, hence the term, "necessary evil."
You could argue casting those to a realm of eternal damnation is an evil act, but for those who are truly wicked who deserve it, it could be deemed a "necessary evil."

Then the religion philosophy fails here. "Do No Evil" should be the norm to follow, not to divide from.

 

[x65943]

>Rationalwiki
oh, well that explains a lot

I hope you understand an ad hominem attack is hardly pushing your narrative further.

Do you doubt the veracity of this list?

Is this attack how you sweep under the rug god's list of confirmed kills?

 

[MaverickWellington]

You say it's impossible to understand reality - but you have no proof of this.

There is a long history of humans tackling problems and making sense of the world.

Further since you are the one making an absolute statement the onus is on you to prove your statement.

Your rebuttal is as senseless as a theist who says. "Make me prove God is real? How about you prove he isn't"

Then prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the universe is as it is presented, and that our senses are not being fooled. This isn't "make me prove it's not real? prove it is" so much as it is "Our mortal minds aren't gonna understand this shit, but I openly welcome you to try"

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I hope you understand an ad hominem attack is hardly pushing your narrative further.

Do you doubt the veracity of this list?

Is this attack how you sweep under the rug god's list of confirmed kills?

I don't push narratives, that's for tools. I do however doubt the rationalwiki since any "wiki" presenting itself as rational while making arguments that clearly take one side over the other while painting the other as irrational is to be taken with a grain of salt. You'd be easier to take seriously linking unbiased sources.

 

[linuxares]

Then prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the universe is as it is presented, and that our senses are not being fooled. This isn't "make me prove it's not real? prove it is" so much as it is "Our mortal minds aren't gonna understand this shit, but I openly welcome you to try"

Then challange it! Do not accept the answer as "I'm not smart enough". That's what got us stuck in the freaking middle ages. We kickstarted a lot for humanity today. Before we could look at the moon, then we landed and walked on it and today we know we can again step on it.

 

[x65943]

Then prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the universe is as it is presented, and that our senses are not being fooled. This isn't "make me prove it's not real? prove it is" so much as it is "Our mortal minds aren't gonna understand this shit, but I openly welcome you to try"

I make no claims that the world is exactly as presented. Just as I make no claim that we can understand the universe.

My issue is that you do claim that it is impossible to comprehend the world.

You may very well be correct. I am just asking you to acknowledge that there is no evidence to back up your claim and that it's merely an opinion.

 

[Deleted User]

>God will not take away a person's ability to choose just because it doesn't seem morally correct
God killed people in the old testament liberally (if you believe in the old testament)

Here's a long list https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Examples_of_God_personally_killing_people

From an Abrahamic tradition god was very involved until he inexplicably stopped doing anything during recorded history.

The only explanation I have for that comes from my own religion and religious teachings, and I don't want to force anything on anybody so I will keep that quiet unless somebody wants to hear it.