Another School Shooting

[Hanafuda]

Let's be real: there's no reason weapons should be so common place, especially anything more than a handgun.

There were fewer gun control laws in the past, and these school shootings weren't happening then. At my highschool in the 80's, it was common to see several pickup trucks in the parking lot with rifles hung in the window. And school shootings weren't happening then. Columbine started this, and ever since it has become a thing created by media driven hysteria. More spotlight equals more copycats.

Understand I'm not talking about "gun crime" generally. Gun crime in the US was worse in the past. Worse in the 60's and the 90's in particular. I'm only talking about "school shootings" as a phenomenon. The guns have always been around. Criminals have always been around. But juveniles with murderous intent willing to shoot up a school full of innocents is a fairly new thing.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The 2nd amendment doesn't specify anything more than the right to "Keep and Bear Arms". This is for the sake of a **well regulated militia**. But the word militia itself means basically "soldiers" from Latin when you go back far enough, but itself means "military".

Yeah at the time of the Revolutionary War, those "arms" included cannons. Including private citizens owning ships with cannons. So it's true they didn't strictly define the term. But the Supreme Court did, in 1939. See US v. Miller. Per the US Supreme Court, the 2nd Amendment protects the peoples' right to keep and bear, "ordinary military equipment." And per the Heller decision in 2008, the Court found that the 2nd Amendment also protects firearms that are, "in common use."

Here's the thing: a Militia has to be raised from the civil population. What counts as a Militia officially? Well, using Wikipedia, sinful scourge as it is, which does provide a source for its choice of wording:

"Today, as defined by the Militia Act of 1903, the term "militia" is used to describe two classes within the United States:[8]

• Organized militia – consisting of State militia forces; notably, the National Guard and Naval Militia.[9] (Note: the National Guard is not to be confused with the National Guard of the United States.)

Unorganized militia – composing the Reserve Militia: every able-bodied man of at least 17 and under 45 years of age, not a member of the National Guard or Naval Militia.[10]"

So what does this mean? Well, The only ORGANIZED militias (ergo as, quote unquote: "well regulated") are State forces, IE: the National Guard. As such the only groups that have a right to bear arms according to a very strict understanding of the law.

If the 2nd Amendment was intended only to protect the military forces of the State, why does there even need to such an amendment? The Bill of Rights is a listing of protections of the people's rights AGAINST the government, not a listing of further ways the government has privilege and power over the people.

I understand that in the ratified version it lacked the , after "militia" and "arms". HOWEVER, this does nothing as it still clarifies it must be a "well regulated militia". To ignore the first two words I have quoted is to attempt to capitalize on a subsection for personal while ignoring the rest, as it ignores that a Militia IS the "people" upon which have the right to bear arms.

Again, nope. Do a bit of research on the meaning and usage of the phrase "well-regulated" in the 18th and early 19th centuries. It doesn't mean loaded down with lots of government rules. It means kept in good working order.

Also, your suggestion that the only people the 2nd amendment applies to are people in a State militia is just about silly. "The people" in the context of any article in the Bill of Rights means ALL the people. The Bill of Rights is all and only about the collective citizenry being secured rights against government action. Not securing rights only to people who do the government's bidding.

Remember, the people who wrote the Declaration, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights ... they were Revolutionaries. They were "Fight the Power!" kind of people. They went to war over high taxes and an attempt by British soldiers to confiscate privately-owned weapons. They didn't intend the government they founded to even have a standing fulltime army, or a "National Guard."

 

[x65943]

Eventually the gun grabbers are going to win this fight. Mostly through demographic change over the next 10-20 years.

The younger generation does not feel nearly as strong about gun rights.

However when that day comes, there will be blood. People aren't going to willingly give up their guns in a nation with more guns than people.

I could even see this issue leading to secessionist movements in more conservative states.

I understand people are upset about these shootings. But you have to understand giving humans rights is always double edged.

A glimpse into the future. Car accidents are the number one cause of death among young Americans (orders of magnitude higher than guns). AI is going to get so good that car accidents could be eradicated if we ban manual driving. There will be countries that do - and I have a hunch America is going to again be the one nation that doesn't (at least at first). MSM is going to put deadly car accidents on the news every night showing how reckless this country is. Driving will be banned.

Rights are easily taken, and won back only through blood and steel.

I understand European nations have done well with weapon bans. And I think the system can work. But I am decidedly against taking away the rights the framers of the Constitution gave us as American citizens, and I think you should all be wary of giving up those rights too.

 

[Superbronx]

Daddy, is it you?

There is a lesson in this about humanity and believes. )

Stability and attention mostly is enough. You dont have have to reproduce values, or give proper direction, thats just something you do. Also americans are 144 times worse parents than canadians? Fun with statistics. (edit: Oh, I understand, only some - are.. )

It seems many people take offense and are more focused on whether my comment about family decay is accurate or not instead of expressing their concerns for the victims. Be that as it may.

Eventually the gun grabbers are going to win this fight. Mostly through demographic change over the next 10-20 years.

The younger generation does not feel nearly as strong about gun rights.

However when that day comes, there will be blood. People aren't going to willingly give up their guns in a nation with more guns than people.

I could even see this issue leading to secessionist movements in more conservative states.

I understand people are upset about these shootings. But you have to understand giving humans rights is always double edged.

A glimpse into the future. Car accidents are the number one cause of death among young Americans (orders of magnitude higher than guns). AI is going to get so good that car accidents could be eradicated if we ban manual driving. There will be countries that do - and I have a hunch America is going to again be the one nation that doesn't (at least at first). MSM is going to put deadly car accidents on the news every night showing how reckless this country is. Driving will be banned.

Rights are easily taken, and won back only through blood and steel.

I understand European nations have done well with weapon bans. And I think the system can work. But I am decidedly against taking away the rights the framers of the Constitution gave us as American citizens, and I think you should all be wary of giving up those rights too.

Very well stated. Richard Henry Lee said: "A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves... and include all men capable of bearing arms. . . To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms."
and
Richard Henry Lee: "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."


Thomas Jefferson said: "
Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
and "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
and "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent."
and "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

John Adams said: "But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever.

Samuel Adams said: "If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!"

Benjamin Franklin said: "I think with you , that nothing is more important for the public weal, than to form and train up youth in wisdom and virtue. Wise and good men are in my opinion, the strength of the state; more so than riches or arms..." and
“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

 

[Cylent1]

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/21/us/school-shooting-us-versus-world-trnd/index.html

This is over a period of 10 years.

I'd say change your education systems, youth culture and ban automatic rifles. But thats just me.

The back of the truck guy, will have less available for 16 year old kids, if they are banned, because of supply and demand. But then you cant have your dudes riling up 300 mexicans at gunpoint at the border without any authority anymore - so, its up to you.

On the other hand, lets say those are 10 victims per school shooting on average, thats 300 victims a year. You could also say its negligent. Which is apparently what happened.

edit: Longer list:

edit:

9/11 btw was 3000 victims, and another one hasnt happened in 10 years, so...
Every year 100 americans are killed by bee stings - so thats your baseline.

Fun with statistics..

The whole time even before these numbers were released, they been tyring to take our guns friom the get go! The democrats KNOW DAMN WELL they will never amount to any power as long as the patriots stick to their constitutional rights. and that is even been and is still being trampled on! NWO WILL NEVER SUCCEED IN THE UNITED STATES!

 

[BiggieCheese]

Awful that this keeps happening.
Man, sometimes this part of GBAtemp feels like I just walked into either an anonymous image board, the ramblings of a Russian bot or a whiny Baby Boomer’s Facebook feed

 

[Mollycule]

Be a real parent and teach your children yourself, the state will rot their brains and fill their minds with propaganda to make sure they're well adjusted members of society who desire no more than a cage to live in and a cage to move them to their cage that they will slave away most of their lives in all to pay for their sleep cage, dead food and distraction toys.

 

[RandomUser]

Instead of taking rights away for firearms or banning guns, the technology needs to improve, where DNA pairing is required for such weapons, and that it cannot be deleted or reset at least conveniently. If the person holding the gun who DNA is mismatched to the the weapon, it will not fire. That I can see it in the future perhaps, and still kinda preserve the right to boot.

 

[tooknie]

@Ssuperbronx

I'm afraid I don't subscribe to your argument that single parent families are the root of moral decay. A single mother probably has a far better chance of bringing her kid up with decent moral values than a two parent family where the father gets drunk and beats her in front of the kids (obviously just as one most common example of domestic abuse).

Also, quoting prominent historical american figures makes no sense as a representation of today's values and circumstance. What they said at that time was in the context of those values which are very different to the more liberal values of society today and were often said at times of conflict - they were meant to incite patriotism for that purpose. It's like me saying that Henry VIII had six wives a number of which he divorced and executed - and that I should therefore treat women in a similar fashion.

I believe that there is moral decay in society but that it is more likely to be as a result of unscrupulous media spin on current issues, both for sensationalism and for political agendas. Personally I think to move toward solving the issue we need to both tackle this issue and at the very least curb gun ownership that would facilitate rapid fire mass killings.

 

[notimp]

It seems many people take offense and are more focused on whether my comment about family decay is accurate or not instead of expressing their concerns for the victims. Be that as it may.

It has actually crossed my mind - that by not mentioning the actual incident this time around (I'm not familiar with it at this point), it has freed up the discussion to be of a more general nature, and not focus in on "oh so sad" rituals off the bat. This also was the reason, why I posted the south park videos, f.e. - which I wouldnt have done otherwise.

What follows mass shootings are essentially public and media rituals at this point that help the victims and their families to cope with the situation a little better. Public denouncements, shame narratives, shared grief (the entire nation griefs with you), those are important. But then, so is a general discussion on the matter.

In terms of "this is how you raise a child correctly" - I was raised for part of my youth by a choleric father that talked about voting for political candidates because of their "values", and then couldnt name them when I mistakingly asked once. It wasnt good. So the bickering in this case wasn't just trolling. To me it is important to voice, that you dont instill the "proper values and morals in your children", and the issue for school shootings is, that some people dont - and now society suffers because more people dont "do like you do". I know that talk. Its bogus.

If you go into the motivation of school shootings it has to do with being denied recognition and acceptance. Having the teen know, that shooting up people is bad - even if instilled in them, does nothing in that instance because they dont care about a positive societal image of them at that point.

So everything the comment was - was just "this is my style of raising my kids - everyone should do so, because strict morals are important", coated with another fake moral reasoning for having to do so. It simply was not true.

End of me opening up in that instance.

 

[SonowRaevius]

Eventually people are going to become desensitized.

That's kinda already happening.

I know a lot of people that will just say "Oh, that's a shame" and nothing more like someone just dropped a gallon of milk on the floor....

Can't really say I blame people either though, it does kinda happen often and nothing really comes of it, like it is just something that IS expected as a part of living here.

 

[Superbronx]

@Ssuperbronx

I'm afraid I don't subscribe to your argument that single parent families are the root of moral decay. A single mother probably has a far better chance of bringing her kid up with decent moral values than a two parent family where the father gets drunk and beats her in front of the kids (obviously just as one most common example of domestic abuse).

Also, quoting prominent historical american figures makes no sense as a representation of today's values and circumstance. What they said at that time was in the context of those values which are very different to the more liberal values of society today and were often said at times of conflict - they were meant to incite patriotism for that purpose. It's like me saying that Henry VIII had six wives a number of which he divorced and executed - and that I should therefore treat women in a similar fashion.

I believe that there is moral decay in society but that it is more likely to be as a result of unscrupulous media spin on current issues, both for sensationalism and for political agendas. Personally I think to move toward solving the issue we need to both tackle this issue and at the very least curb gun ownership that would facilitate rapid fire mass killings.

Actually, I agree that single parent homes are not the ROOT of moral decay BUT they do play a significant role.
Also I again agree with you that a child would fare better in a home without a drunken abusive father or mother. Plain and simply put, a child MUST have a father to serve as an example and to be a guiding hand. Yes I admit that an abusive father will not serve those roles but in a household where the Father AND Mother both were raised and given wisdom and virtue, then those parents will be able to effectively raise children that have a far smaller possibility to grow up to become a mass murderer.
You just admitted the problem yourself when you said modern values have changed (and for the worse) As is evidenced by the mass school shootings. Thank you for making my point for me. I wish every forum interaction could be so easy.
Now that we have established that today`s values have changed, it is evident that if people still adhered to the teachings of old from the aforementioned historical American figures there would be much less raping, killing and murder. Of course you are still gonna have some truly disturbed people out there who have REAL mental problems but the incidents would be MUCH less frequent.

 

[Viri]

Spoiler

This is Riley Howell, the 21 year old who tackled the UNCC shooter yesterday, he got shot and killed in the process.

 

[Saiyan Lusitano]

Spoiler

This is Riley Howell, the 21 year old who tackled the UNCC shooter yesterday, he got shot and killed in the process.

He was the hero who saved countless lives.

The thing about buying guns from a van is true or I'd not bring it up. My uncle knows someone who has that kind of access and the prices of the "products" aren't even expensive but it's illegal so you never know where that was or who used it before. The dark web isn't even necessary.

 

[Superbronx]

I am very thankful for the men and women out there who are willing to give it all in the defense of the helpless. He didn't for one moment hesitate or stop to think what may happen if he challenged that gunman.

 

[spotanjo3]

So this time it's at UNCC and I'm just speechless. This shit keeps happening but seems no one cares anymore and that it's "normal". No, banning guns wouldn't be the solution because crooks can buy them from back of a dudes van just as easily so.. more security? Wtf. Do something!

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/uncc-active-shooter-reported-today-live-updates-2019-04-30/

This is frustrating that innocent people keep dying and "life goes on" (as if).

Speechless?

It is going to be here forever. It isn't getting better at all.

If you believe in God, sin exists in us because of hatred. If you don't believe in God then how does that happens ? I can't answer that.

Do Something? Never and it won't resolve at all. Never was as evidently in the past and never will during present time and future time..

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/21/us/school-shooting-us-versus-world-trnd/index.html

This is over a period of 10 years.

I'd say change your education systems, youth culture and ban automatic rifles. But thats just me.

The back of the truck guy, will have less available for 16 year old kids, if they are banned, because of supply and demand. But then you cant have your dudes riling up 300 mexicans at gunpoint at the border without any authority anymore - so, its up to you.

On the other hand, lets say those are 10 victims per school shooting on average, thats 300 victims a year. You could also say its negligent. Which is apparently what happened.

edit: Longer list:

edit:

9/11 btw was 3000 victims, and another one hasnt happened in 10 years, so...
Every year 100 americans are killed by bee stings - so thats your baseline.

Fun with statistics..

Not surprised.

 

[leon315]

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/21/us/school-shooting-us-versus-world-trnd/index.html

This is over a period of 10 years.

I'd say change your education systems, youth culture and ban automatic rifles. But thats just me.

The back of the truck guy, will have less available for 16 year old kids, if they are banned, because of supply and demand. But then you cant have your dudes riling up 300 mexicans at gunpoint at the border without any authority anymore - so, its up to you.

On the other hand, lets say those are 10 victims per school shooting on average, thats 300 victims a year. You could also say its negligent. Which is apparently what happened.

edit: Longer list:

edit:

9/11 btw was 3000 victims, and another one hasnt happened in 10 years, so...
Every year 100 americans are killed by bee stings - so thats your baseline.

Fun with statistics..

there was a bomb set up in the proximity to an Italian school and there was one or 2 students killed.

just cen't remember where happened...

 

[spotanjo3]

there was a bomb set up in the proximity to an Italian school and there was one or 2 students killed.

just cen't remember where happened...

Yeah but bomb doesn't counts.. shooting counts. Thats what it is all about.

 

[leon315]

Yeah but bomb doesn't counts.. shooting counts. Thats what it is all about.

wait wut? wtf is this bomb doesn't count?

 

[spotanjo3]

wait wut? wtf is this bomb doesn't count?

@notimp posted about CNN news mentioned :Shooting: so it is about the guns in America is worse than anywhere else.. not about the bombs.

 

[leon315]

@notimp posted about CNN news mentioned :Shooting: so it is about the guns in America is worse than anywhere else.. not about the bombs.

yep, now next murican school they shall use bomb next time, so they can move from all the attentions from gun's restrictions to scream there need more ammonia control.... --_--