Well, that may be so for weed. But for cocaine you actually have to extract it and go through a chemical process.
I suppose you can "grow" (build) guns too. Even 3D print them.
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London Terror attack.
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I suppose you can "grow" (build) guns too. Even 3D print them.
3D printing has brought in a terrifying age for firearms, because now anyone can download the plans to a handgun if they know where to look and the only piece of metal in it would be a small nail used as the hammer
Welp, I'm guessing Le Pen is pretty thrilled at this happening, it'll only boost her chances in the polls. If France leaves the EU like the UK is, then the EU is pretty much dead.
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3D printing srsly came out of nowhere for me. I am pretty amazed at what it can do, and what it will be able to do.
That makes no sense. Do you realize that most terrorists kill and GET KILLED? Why would Muslim terrorists get themselves killed if they didn't believe in a reward in the supposed afterlife?
Read more in my earlier post:
1) You use the word Islamophobia. I find it funny how in Paris after the terror attacks people went to the streets demonstrating that they are not afraid, people said they need to be united, they are against Islamophobia blabla. Then all of a sudden there is a suspicious noise and EVERYONE keeps running like a herd of sheep from a few wolves. That's pathetic. Every time I see terror attacks on the news I sarcastically say "Look at these Islamophobes running away. Don't they know Islam is a religion of peace?"
2) You claim I don't know about Islam. Actually I read the Quran several times, as well as significant portions of Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, as well as common commentators like Ibn Kathir. What about you? I didn't read in Arabic but there are good websites with word by word translations, explanation of grammar etc. I know about the differences between translations (which one is more exact etc) and if I want to know about a specific phrase, I don't shy away from checking and comparing up to 10 translations in different languages.
3) You say that "such teachings" can be found in all monotheistic religion. Yes and no. I'm not here to defend other religions. In a way you are right, all monotheistic religions have a tendency to exclude members of other religious, show intolerance and have a history of or a fantasy about violence. Not sure about Zoroastrians (traditional Persian religion) but they are irrelevant today anyway.
BUT Islam is unique. Martyrdom in Christianity meant (and means today in African / Middle Eastern countries) to die for your faith. E.g. Muslims catch you and hold a knife to your head. Will you deny Christ? According to the New Testament, you should not. You get killed for "his glory" and go to heaven.
Roughly 600 years later the Quran comes along and says "They fight in the name of Allah, they slay and are slain" (+ various sayings by Muhammad e.g. that he would love to die in Jihad, be resurrected and die in Jihad again and so on). -> Killing and being killed for your faith. The Quran even allows its followers to deny being a Muslim in a dangerous situation (which is smart).
Christian history adopted the "killing for your faith" idea during the crusades (which by the way was a pathetic counter attack after hundreds of years of losing territory to the Muslims, see today's Near East and North Africa), but they have nothing to do with the original founder (be it Jesus or Paul) of the religion. So reforms always have a chance to make Christianity peaceful again. Reforms cannot make Islam peaceful because Islam was violent from the beginning (Islamic time reckoning starts with Medina, i.e. Muhammad gets political/military power). Muhammad: powerful and therefor violent. Jesus/Paul: powerless (and therefore?) peaceful.
4) The only way for Islam to become peaceful is to relativize it. Not surprisingly secular Muslims have less motivation to kill and get killed. For the vast majority of Christians (at least in the west) the thought of dying for Christ by not denying him seems stupid and horrific. Very few Christians would actually go out and leave their family and property to live a life as a poor wandering missionary - even though that's what Christ taught and how Jesus/Paul lived! Similarly most Muslims actually prefer THIS life.
5) Which brings me to converts: As you correctly stated, many radical Muslims have become radical only a few years/months/weeks before dying for their faith. That's natural! Converts in all religions feel like they have to prove themselves.
As for those who had been "bad Muslims" before (i.e. drinking alcohol, partying etc): Once they get radicalized they realize how much bad deeds they have collected. They don't know if they can make it to heaven even if they become very devote from now on. Some are so desperate that they die in Jihad as it is a guaranteed ticket to paradise.
-> So yes, Islam has a lot to do with it. People who love this life (e.g. rich people) have less incentive/motivation to die for their faith but without the Islamic belief (which I just mentioned) people don't become suicide bombers. Do you know how many poor Hindus there are in India? How many poor Buddhists all over South-East Asia? How come they are not constantly in the news because they blew themselves up? Social exclusion is only one piece of the puzzle - albeit it an important one. The other one is Islam.
2) You claim I don't know about Islam. Actually I read the Quran several times, as well as significant portions of Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, as well as common commentators like Ibn Kathir. What about you? I didn't read in Arabic but there are good websites with word by word translations, explanation of grammar etc. I know about the differences between translations (which one is more exact etc) and if I want to know about a specific phrase, I don't shy away from checking and comparing up to 10 translations in different languages.
3) You say that "such teachings" can be found in all monotheistic religion. Yes and no. I'm not here to defend other religions. In a way you are right, all monotheistic religions have a tendency to exclude members of other religious, show intolerance and have a history of or a fantasy about violence. Not sure about Zoroastrians (traditional Persian religion) but they are irrelevant today anyway.
BUT Islam is unique. Martyrdom in Christianity meant (and means today in African / Middle Eastern countries) to die for your faith. E.g. Muslims catch you and hold a knife to your head. Will you deny Christ? According to the New Testament, you should not. You get killed for "his glory" and go to heaven.
Roughly 600 years later the Quran comes along and says "They fight in the name of Allah, they slay and are slain" (+ various sayings by Muhammad e.g. that he would love to die in Jihad, be resurrected and die in Jihad again and so on). -> Killing and being killed for your faith. The Quran even allows its followers to deny being a Muslim in a dangerous situation (which is smart).
Christian history adopted the "killing for your faith" idea during the crusades (which by the way was a pathetic counter attack after hundreds of years of losing territory to the Muslims, see today's Near East and North Africa), but they have nothing to do with the original founder (be it Jesus or Paul) of the religion. So reforms always have a chance to make Christianity peaceful again. Reforms cannot make Islam peaceful because Islam was violent from the beginning (Islamic time reckoning starts with Medina, i.e. Muhammad gets political/military power). Muhammad: powerful and therefor violent. Jesus/Paul: powerless (and therefore?) peaceful.
4) The only way for Islam to become peaceful is to relativize it. Not surprisingly secular Muslims have less motivation to kill and get killed. For the vast majority of Christians (at least in the west) the thought of dying for Christ by not denying him seems stupid and horrific. Very few Christians would actually go out and leave their family and property to live a life as a poor wandering missionary - even though that's what Christ taught and how Jesus/Paul lived! Similarly most Muslims actually prefer THIS life.
5) Which brings me to converts: As you correctly stated, many radical Muslims have become radical only a few years/months/weeks before dying for their faith. That's natural! Converts in all religions feel like they have to prove themselves.
As for those who had been "bad Muslims" before (i.e. drinking alcohol, partying etc): Once they get radicalized they realize how much bad deeds they have collected. They don't know if they can make it to heaven even if they become very devote from now on. Some are so desperate that they die in Jihad as it is a guaranteed ticket to paradise.
-> So yes, Islam has a lot to do with it. People who love this life (e.g. rich people) have less incentive/motivation to die for their faith but without the Islamic belief (which I just mentioned) people don't become suicide bombers. Do you know how many poor Hindus there are in India? How many poor Buddhists all over South-East Asia? How come they are not constantly in the news because they blew themselves up? Social exclusion is only one piece of the puzzle - albeit it an important one. The other one is Islam.
The Muslim trick is: Define innocent!
I would be already a dead man in Sharia-based countries for criticizing Islam. And Muslims would not protest against it (or would even applaud it). Famous critics of Islam in Germany (they are former Muslims) are under constant police protections by police. Keep in mind Muslims are a majority in Germany!
Muslims (and politicians like former president Obama) like to quote Sura 5:32 which states that killing an innocent is like killing all mankind. Funny facts about it:
-The source for this verse is the Jewish Talmud (i.e. since Kain killed Able he also prevented/killed Able's potential descendants). Actually it shouldn't even be in the Quran as the Talmud comes from Jewish Rabbis after the time of Jesus. The Quran claims God really said this verse to the "children of Israel".
-When politicians or Islamophiles or Islamic apologists quote this verse, they usually leave out the "children of Israel" part and they always leave out the next verse. Sura 5:33 states what should happens to those WHO ARE NOT INNOCENT: Be crucified, exiled, or their hands and feet cut of from opposite sides. How is sb not innocent? The verse states: If sb fights Allah and Muhammad or spreads "fasādan" (the word also appears in the verse before it) in the land.
-fasādan/fasādin is often translated as spreading corruption. You don't need to rely on any translation or Quranic commentary, you can just look up the meaning of the word in other instances in the Quran itself. It often has to do with belief (here is a list: http://search.quranaddict.co.uk/2012/02/corrupt.html)
-> Do you Westerners have your armies in Muslim lands? Isn't that spreading corruption/fasadan?
-> Do you Westerners not support the killings of Muslims by paying taxes?
-> Plus believing in another religion and spreading it is obviously "fasadan", therefore the Coptic Christisans in Egypt who died recently celebrating Easter are not necessarily innocent.
-> Sb who criticizes Islam is also not innocent, he/she is spreading corruption/fasadan.
What did Muhammad say about innocent people getting killed?
1) There are sahih (sound) narrations of Muhammad (according to Sunni Islam) who said that children being killed in battle may be ok as they are "of them" (the enemy). (Sahih Muslim Book 19 Nr 4321, 4322, 4323). Sahih Muslim is considered the most trustworthy collection of deeds/saying of Muhammad in Sunni Islam (next to Sahih Bukhari)
https://muflihun.com/muslim/19/4321
https://muflihun.com/muslim/19/4322
https://muflihun.com/muslim/19/4323
2) Muslims like to say terrorists can't be Muslims because they kill other Muslims. Even when you disregard the Sunni vs Shia divide in the world, there are Muslims who considers moderate Muslims as hypocrites. Their view is supported by Muhammad himself!
https://muflihun.com/muslim/20/4696
"It has been narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him) said: One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite." 'Abdullah b. Mubarak said: We think the hadith pertained to the time of the Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him)."
I'm not a racist. I don't like white converted Muslims either if they support Sharia, Jihad or would applaud me being killed for criticizing Islam. I do love people from Muslim countries who have the courage to speak out against the Sharia. You just throw names at people because you have no arguments. As for the KKK: It would be interesting to compare their deeds with the teachings of Jesus (if they even claim to affiliate to Jesus). On the other hand, you can justify practices of ISIS like having sex with war captives with the Quran.
Who are you to tell ISIS members who is and who isn't a true Muslim? If you do not support Jihad you are a hypocrite. That's not my opinion but that of your prophet.
Last edited by UltraDolphinRevolution,
Again let me tell you a person who kills innocents & thinks he'll get Jannah for it. Either he is lunatic, uneducated or brainwashed. As I mentioned most of the times killing innocents is a major sin in Islam. In Quran Chapter 5 Verse 32 Allah says “Whoever kills a person [unjustly]…it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind.”
& Jihad doesn't mean holy war. If you think it means that then there is no difference between you & ISIS because you both have same believe. Jihad means to strive & struggle. For Example If a person doing hard study to pass his exam he is doing jihad.
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Thats why I said to you racist people many times that go & do study don't be like Hitler, Bush, ISIS etc.
Last edited by Onepunchbruh,
You didn't read anything that @UltraDolphinRevolution wrote, did you?
I feel like a prophet as I have predicted Raza's answer exactly. Maybe I should write a book.
BTW Jihad means struggle but most of the time in the Quran it is meant as a struggle to fight. Normal people don't like war. Read my post about Sura 5,32 and then respond, pls.
Regarding child marriage:
-Aisha, Muhammad's youngest wife, was 9 when he consummated the marriage with her. According to many Non-Islamic countries that would be considered child abused. Are you ready to condemn Muhammad or do you deny the Muslim sources? Since Muhammad is Islam's role model (confirmed by the Quran), it is obvious that child marriage is a bigger problems among Muslim communities.
-The Quran does not even seem to forbid to have sex with girls who have not yet menstruated. I find that quite shocking. What is your explanation?
I'm talking about Sura 64, verse 4 (the context are waiting periods, "Iddah", for woman who are divorced or widows before marrying again)
"If you are in doubt, the period of waiting will be three months for those women who have ceased menstruating and for those who have not [yet] menstruated; the waiting period of those who are pregnant will be until they deliver their burden: God makes things easy for those who are mindful of Him."
The word yet is inserted in translations but for linguistic and contextual meanings the Quran must speak of young girls who have not menstruated yet. The word menstruated (yaḥiḍ'na) is in the imperfect verb form. The contextual evidence is that the phrase comes as a contrast to woman who are too old.
BTW Jihad means struggle but most of the time in the Quran it is meant as a struggle to fight. Normal people don't like war. Read my post about Sura 5,32 and then respond, pls.
Regarding child marriage:
-Aisha, Muhammad's youngest wife, was 9 when he consummated the marriage with her. According to many Non-Islamic countries that would be considered child abused. Are you ready to condemn Muhammad or do you deny the Muslim sources? Since Muhammad is Islam's role model (confirmed by the Quran), it is obvious that child marriage is a bigger problems among Muslim communities.
-The Quran does not even seem to forbid to have sex with girls who have not yet menstruated. I find that quite shocking. What is your explanation?
I'm talking about Sura 64, verse 4 (the context are waiting periods, "Iddah", for woman who are divorced or widows before marrying again)
"If you are in doubt, the period of waiting will be three months for those women who have ceased menstruating and for those who have not [yet] menstruated; the waiting period of those who are pregnant will be until they deliver their burden: God makes things easy for those who are mindful of Him."
The word yet is inserted in translations but for linguistic and contextual meanings the Quran must speak of young girls who have not menstruated yet. The word menstruated (yaḥiḍ'na) is in the imperfect verb form. The contextual evidence is that the phrase comes as a contrast to woman who are too old.
Read the given Most Misinterpreted Verses Of The Quran.
These are the verses you guys often show because of your agenda. Learn the history & you'll know why they were revealed.
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...etribution-for-those-murdered-quran-2178-179/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...belief-is-worse-than-killing-quran-2-191-194/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...on-you-while-it-is-hateful-to-you-quran-2216/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2015/01/23/quran-2225-unintentional-oaths/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/02/and-fight-in-the-cause-of-god-quran-2244/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2015/01/24/quran-328-not-to-take-non-believers-as-friends/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/02/quran-3121-the-battle-of-uhud/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/03/quran-3140-143-battle-of-uhud/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...fflicted-them-in-the-cause-of-god-quran-3146/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2014...st-terror-into-the-hearts-of-the-unbelievers/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/02/quran-3152-158-battle-of-uhud/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/02/quran-3165-169-quraysh-declared-war-battle-of-uhud/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/02/quran-3172-173-hamra-al-asad-or-lesser-badr/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...m-to-be-in-safety-from-punishment-quran-3188/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...my-cause-or-fought-or-were-killed-quran-3195/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/02/fight-the-cause-of-allah-for-the-oppressed-quran-471-77/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...allah-you-are-not-held-responsible-quran-484/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...ill-them-wherever-you-find-them-quran-489-91/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...ll-them-wherever-you-overtake-them-quran-491/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...ive-fight-in-the-cause-of-allah-quran-494-95/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...attack-disbelievers-are-enemy-quran-4101-103/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/08/do-not-weaken-in-pursuit-of-the-enemy-quran-4104/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...ch-you-then-if-you-gain-a-victory-quran-4141/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/18/surah-532-sanhedrin-talmud-plagiarism/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/03/18/those-who-wage-war-and-make-mischief-quran-533/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/09/seek-the-means-to-him-and-strive-in-his-cause-quran-535/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...lievers-to-be-jews-and-polytheists-quran-582/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...e-hearts-of-the-disbelievers-quran-81-to-812/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...es-return-to-war-we-will-return-quran-815-19/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...l-there-is-no-more-fitna-disbelief-quran-839/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/09/quran-838-48-battle-of-badr/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/08/quran-856-61-banu-qurayzah/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/08/quran-861-75-battle-of-badr/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2015/01/23/quran-93-dissolution-of-oaths/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/04/22/an-historical-examination-of-the-sword-verse-surah-95/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/05/the-sword-verse-surah-913-24/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/05/surah-925-27-battle-of-hunayn/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...t-against-those-who-do-not-believe-quran-929/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/05/quran-936-battle-of-hunayn/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/05/quran-938-52-the-battle-of-tabuk/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/06/prophet-fight-against-the-hypocrites-surah-973/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/12/battle-of-tabuk-quran-981-88/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...ng-to-spend-for-the-cause-of-allah-surah-992/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...of-allah-they-kill-and-are-killed-surah-9111/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/11/tabuk-expedition-surah-9120/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...to-go-forth-to-battle-all-at-once-quran-9122/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/10/fight-those-disbelievers-who-are-near-you-surah-9123/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2015...for-one-who-is-forced-deceiving-disbelievers/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...-cause-of-allah-and-were-patient-surah-16110/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/11/when-we-intend-to-destroy-a-city-surah-1716/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...rments-of-fire-will-be-cut-out-surah-2219-23/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...ven-to-those-who-are-being-fought-surah-2239/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...use-of-allah-and-then-were-killed-surah-2258/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...llah-with-the-striving-due-to-him-quran-2278/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/14/jihad-they-would-go-forth-in-allahs-cause-quran-2453-55/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2015/01/06/penalty-for-those-who-slander-innocent-women/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/10/jihad-strive-against-the-disbelievers-surah-2552/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...strives-for-the-benefit-of-himself-quran-296/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/13/quran-2969-those-who-strive-for-us-we-will-surely-jihad/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/13/quran-3315-27-battle-of-khandaq/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/14/those-who-malign-allah-and-his-messenger-quran-3357/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...e-seized-wherever-found-and-slain-surah-3361/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2015/01/23/quran-4028-a-believer-lying/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...cks-they-shall-be-dragged-into-quran-4071-72/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...es-them-they-defend-themselves-quran-4239-43/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...nbelievers-inflict-great-slaughter-surah-474/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...aled-and-fighting-is-mentioned-surah-4720-21/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...r-peace-while-you-are-superior-surah-4731-35/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/15/quran-4815-26-battle-of-khaybar/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...re-severe-against-the-unbelievers-surah-4829/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...alth-and-lives-for-cause-of-allah-surah-4915/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/14/after-life-quran-5692-94/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/13/banu-nadirs-treachery-quran-592-14/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...though-they-are-a-single-structure-surah-614/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...ith-your-wealth-and-your-lives-surah-6111-13/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/13/the-hypocrites-quran-631-4/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...ur-children-are-enemies-to-you-surah-6414-16/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/03/12/quran-654-the-child-marriage-claim/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2015/01/24/commentary-on-quran-661-2/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...he-disbelievers-and-the-hypocrites-surah-669/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/05/12/others-fighting-for-the-cause-of-allah-surah-7320/
https://discover-the-truth.com/2016...o-the-needy-orphan-and-the-captive-surah-768/
Was this Marriage wrong before 1400 years ? Did Muhammad s.a.w married her due to lust ? Was this marraige Wrong according to society and environment ? Was this marriage done before her puberty ?
Answer is NO .
1-It was a divine inspiration:
Before describing the rationale behind this married relation, let it be known that the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) married Sayyida Aisha not of his own desire rather it was a Divine inspiration. Read the following Hadith;
Narrated ‘Aisha:
That the Prophet said to her, “You have been shown to me twice in my dream. I saw you pictured on a piece of silk and some-one said (to me). ‘This is your wife.’ When I uncovered the picture, I saw that it was yours. I said, ‘If this is from Allah, it will be done.” {Bukhari :: Volume 5 :: Book 58 :: Hadith 235}
2-It was not out of his physical desires:
The Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) did not marry Sayyidah Aisha out of his physical desires. One need to note that for first 54 years of his life he had only one wife. His only wife till 50th year of his life was Sayyida Khadija. He spent his entire youth with her and she was a two time widowed woman, 15 years elder to him. For next four years his only wife was Sayyidah Sa’uda.
3-Age of Marriage in Old Ages:
One must first understand that 1400 years ago was very different than now, times have changed and so have humans. 1400 years ago it was something very common to marry young girls, in fact they were not considered young girls, and rather they were considered young women back then. It is a historic fact that girls from the ages of 9 to 14 were being married in Europe, Asia, and Africa, in fact even in the United States girls at the age of 10 were also being married just more than a century ago.
Yet with these facts no historian claims that all these people were sick perverts, historians would call anyone who made such a claim to be arrogant and very stupid who has no grasp or understanding of history.
Even in Indo-Pak Sub-Continent girls used to be married at 12-13 even 50-60 years ago. And those ‘girls’ infact raised much better families. There were less family problems then. A simple analyses of the divorce rate then and know would certainly make it clear that maturity level earlier used to be different i.e. people used to come of age rather quickly.
4-Child Brides in Byzantine Empire:
http://www.roman-emperors.org/aggiefran.htm
Visit this link to see how common were the child brides in the Byzantine Empire.This article clearly states;”Child brides, whether Byzantines or foreign princesses, were the norm rather than the exception, especially from the late twelfth century”.
5-The Pagans of the Prophet’s time:
The fact that it was a completely acceptable thing can also be seen from the response of the pagans at that time. No Muslim or even pagan objected to the marriage because it was widely practiced. And even until today in 3rd world countries (Muslims and non-Muslims), little girls as young as 9 or 10 do get married. Anyway, the reason no one objected was to the Prophet’s marriage was:1-People used to have very short life-spans in Arabia. They used to live between 40 to 60 years maximum. So it was only normal and natural for girls to be married off at ages 9 or 10 or similar.2-Marriage for young girls was widely practiced among Arabs back then, and even today in many non-Muslim and Muslim countries
6-Engagement with Jubair bin Mutim:
It ought also be noted that Sayyidah Aisha ( RA) was engaged to Jubayr son of Mut’im before Prophet Muhammed (Peace be upon him. This indicates the age of marriage and engagement in Prophet’s time. However, the engagement was later nullified by Jubayr’s parents due to Abu Bakr (RA) embracing Islam.Doesn’t this indicate there was nothing bad in marrying a 9 year girl at that time?She must have been even younger when she was engaged to Jubair
7-Sayyidah Aisha was fit for marriage:
Furthermore as to the Holy Prophet’s marriage with Sayyidah Aisha, something people will notice is that the completion of the marriage was done when Sayyidah Aisha was 9 years old, not when she was 6, and there is a reason for that. The reason why this happened is because Sayyidah Aisha had been through puberty by the age of 9, and in Islam a female who under-goes puberty is considered a lady and is fit for marriage.
If we read the hadiths, we find that right before Sayyidah Aisha got married off to the Holy Prophet that she was sick and not feeling too well:
Narrated Sayyidah Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s Blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.” {Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234}
So as we can see, Sayyidah Aisha got ill and her body was going through some changes, indicating that she was going through her puberty.
8-Sayyida Aisha never showed her displeasure:
Another striking thing to observe is that among hundreds of her narrations there is not even a single one showing her displeasure about this marriage. Hence, she had no problem with this relation. Infect it is manifest from several traditions that she loved the Holy Prophet (Peace be upon him) too much and even felt some sort of jealousy when she found others around him. Does this not prove that she was extremely happy about this marriage? So, when she herself had no problem at all then what’s the matter of concern for others?
9-A 9-year old Thai girl gave birth:
A 9 old girl can become a mother. If you don’t believe me then see here is the proof;
The news item is from the New Straits Times, 10/3/2001.
In our world today, we still have people who marry very young girls. Why should we object to someone who married a 9-year old girl 1400 years ago, when we still practice it today? The girl above even gave birth at the age of 9!
10-It was absolutely legal:
Prophet Muhammad’s marriage with Aisha was 100% legal and acceptable by all laws and Divine Religions. It is important to know that girls during the Biblical and Islamic days used to be married off at young ages when they either had their first periods, or their breasts start showing off. In other words, when they turn into “women”, then they get married off. It was quite different for men on the other hand, because physical power and the ability of living an independent life had always been and will always be a mandatory requirement for men to have in life. So men waited much longer than women in terms of getting married. The guy had to develop both his body and mind before he was ready for marriage. That is why you see girls as young as 9 or 10 were married to men as old as 30 or even older. The culture back then and in many of the world countries today (NON-MUSLIM ONES TOO) is quite different than what you live in today.And there is no divine law which is broken in marrying a girl of nine at any costs.
11-Her parents never objected:
Sayyidah Aisha’s mother and the Muslim women back then were O.K with her marriage. It was part of the Arab custom and still is in many of the Muslim and non-Muslim countries today for girls to marry at a very young age. When a girl’s body starts showing up (her breasts and her height and physical size), then she would be ready for marriage
The only reason why Sayyidah Aisha’s father, Abu Baker Al Sidique, broke her engagement with Jober is because he was a non-Muslim. Later, a woman named Kholeah Bint Hakeem suggested for Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him to marry Sayyidah Aisha, because the Prophet and Abu Baker became best friends. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) engaged Sayyidah Aisha for 3 years before he married her.
12-Muslims never concealed it:
Had there been any bad thinking regarding this marriage in minds of the people at that time. Muslims would have tried there best to conceal at that time. But they didn’t.
13-Refuting unjust Pagan views:
There were many baseless traditions in practice among the Arabs in those days. So Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was usually ordered by the Almighty ALLAH to refute such traditions through personal examples. Similar is the case of Prophet Muhammad’s marriage with Umm al Momineen Aisha (R.A.)
1-For a bad omen, Arab considered Shawwal a month prohibited for marriage. Sayyidah A’isha’s betrothal and departure from her parent’s house took place in Shawwal. This changed the ridiculous custom.
2-Another bad custom was that the Arabs did not give the hands of their daughters to those who they “called” their brothers (though were not actual brothers). This was the objection raised by Abu Bakr himself, when the Prophet (peace be upon him) made the proposal. The Prophet (Peace be upon him) then told him that a brother in faith was not an actual blood brother to be placed in the prohibited category.
14-Great Wisdom behind this marriage:
Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) marriage with Sayyidah Aisha at that age was indeed a great blessings for all the Muslims ever since. Most of the matters related to cleanliness, married relationship and other household issues have been cleared due to her narrations. She lived a long time after the death of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) and continued to teach the Ummah about matters of daily routine and great importance.
15-What was Sayyidah Aisha famous for ??
Well what was her specialty? I ask the critics.
Was it beauty?
Was it wealth?
No it was religion!Thus proving the DIVINE LOGIC.
Arwa Bin Zubair says, “I did not find anyone more proficient (than Aisha ) in the knowledge of the Holy Quran, the Commandments of Halal (lawful) and Haram (prohibited), Ilmul-Ansab and Arabic poetry. That is why, even senior companions of the Prophet used to consult Aisha in resolving intricate issues”.
(Jala-ul-Afham by Ibn Qaiyem and Ibn Sa’ad, Vol.2, p.26)
Also see this;
Abu Musa al-Ashari says: “Never had we (the companions) any difficulty for the solution of which we approached Aisha and did not get some useful information from her”. (Sirat-I-Aisha, on the authority of Trimidhi, pg. 163)
Here are some sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that help us understand the life-changing and tranformative Divine message revealed to him and his tremendous character.
- “A Muslim who plants a tree or sows a field, from which man, birds and animals can eat, is committing an act of charity.” (Muslim)
- “There is a polish for everything that takes away rust; and the polish for the heart is the remembrance of Allah.” (Bukhari)
- “What actions are most excellent? To gladden the heart of human beings, to feed the hungry, to help the afflicted, to lighten the sorrow of the sorrowful, and to remove the sufferings of the injured.” (Bukhari)
- “The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of self.” (Bukhari)
- “If you put your whole trust in Allah, as you ought, He most certainly will satisfy your needs, as He satisfies those of the birds. They come out hungry in the morning, but return full to their nests.” (Tirmidhi)
- “Allah will not give mercy to anyone, except those who give mercy to other creatures.” (Abdullah b. Amr: Abu Dawud & Tirmidhi)
- “Say what is true, although it may be bitter and displeasing to people.” (Baihaqi)
- “Kindness is a mark of faith, and whoever is not kind has no faith.” (Muslim)
- “When you see a person who has been given more than you in money and beauty, look to those, who have been given less.” (Muslim)
- “If you do not feel ashamed of anything, then you can do whatever you like.” (Abu-Masud: Bukhari)
- “It is better to sit alone than in company with the bad; and it is better still to sit with the good than alone. It is better to speak to a seeker of knowledge than to remain silent; but silence is better than idle words.” (Bukhari)
- “Verily, a man teaching his child manners is better than giving one bushel of grain in alms.” (Muslim)
- “Whoever is kind, Allah will be kind to him; therefore be kind to man on the earth. He who is in heaven will show mercy on you.” (Abu Dawud: Tirmidhi)
- “It is difficult for a man laden with riches to climb the steep path, that leads to bliss.” (Muslim)
- “The best of you are those who are best to the women.” (Tirmidhi)
- “Whoever loveth to meet God, God loveth to meet him” (Bukhari)
- “Once a man, who was passing through a road, found a branch of a tree with thorns obstructing it. The man removed the thorns from the way. Allah thanked him and forgave his sins.” (Bukhari)
- “Who are the learned? Those who practice what they know.” (Bukhari)
- “Allah has revealed to me, that you must be humble. No one should boast over one another, and no one should oppress another.” (Iyad b. Hinar al-Mujashi: Muslim)
- “A true Muslim is thankful to Allah in prosperity, and resigned to His will in adversity.” (Muslim)
- “A Muslim who meets with others and shares their burdens is better than one who lives a life of seclusion and contemplation.” (Muslim)
- “Serve Allah, as you would if you could see Him; although you cannot see Him, He can see you.” (Umar: Muslim)
- “Allah does not look at your appearance or your possessions; but He looks at your heart and your deeds.” (Abu Huraira: Muslim)
- “The best richness is the richness of the soul.” (Bukhari)
- “Keep yourselves far from envy; because it eats up and takes away good actions, like a fire eats up and burns wood.” (Abu Dawud)
- “Much silence and a good disposition, there are no two things better than these.” (Bukhari)
- “Verily, Allah is mild and is fond of mildness, and He gives to the mild what He does not give to the harsh.” (Muslim)
- “Once the Prophet was asked: “Tell us, which action is dearest to Allah?” He answered: “To say your prayer at its proper time.” Again he was asked: “What comes next?” Mohammad said: “To show kindness to parents.” “Then what?” he was asked, “To strive for the cause of Allah!” (Ibn Masad: Bukhari)
- “When two persons are together, two of them must not whisper to each other, without letting the third hear; because it would hurt him.” (Bukhari & Muslim)
- “Verily, it is one of the respects to Allah to honor an old man.” (Bukhari)
- “I command you to treat women kindly…” (Bukhari)
- “All Muslims are like a foundation, each strengthening the other; in such a way they do support each other.” (Abu Musa: Bukhari & Muslim)
- “Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.” (Bukhari)
- “You will not enter paradise until you have faith; and you will not complete your faith till you love one another.” (Muslim)
- “He, who wishes to enter paradise at the best gate, must please his father and mother.” (Bukhari & Muslim)
- “I am leaving two things among you, and if you cling to them firmly you will never go astray; one is the Book of Allah and the other is my way of life.” (Last Sermon on the Mount)
- “Allah is One and likes Unity.” (Muslim)
- “The best of alms is that, which the right hand gives and the left hand knows not of.” (Bukhari)
- “The perfect Muslim is not a perfect Muslim, who eats till he is full and leaves his neighbors hungry.” (Ibn Abbas: Baihaqi)
- “He is not of us who is not affectionate to the little ones, and does not respect the old; and he is not of us, who does not order which is lawful, and prohibits that which is unlawful.” (Ibn Abbas: Tirmidhi)
- “No man is a true believer unless he desires for his brother that, what he desires for himself.” (Abu Hamza Anas: Bukhari & Muslim)
- “To strive for the cause of Allah from daybreak to noon and sunset is better than the goods and enjoyment of the whole worldly life.” (Bukhari)
- “Be not like the hypocrite who, when he talks, tells lies; when he gives a promise, he breaks it; and when he is trusted, he proves dishonest.” (Bukhari & Muslim)
- “The proof of a Muslim’s sincerity is, that he pays no heed to that, which is not his business.” (Abu Hureira: Tirmidhi)
- “Do you know what is better than charity and fasting and prayer? It is keeping peace and good relations between people, as quarrels and bad feelings destroy mankind.” (Muslims & Bukhari)
- “Conduct yourself in this world, as if you are here to stay forever; prepare for eternity as if you have to die tomorrow.” (Bukhari)
- “The human being does not fill up any vessel worse than his stomach.” (Tirmidhi)
- “The worldly comforts are not for me. I am like a traveler, who takes a rest under a tree in the shade and then goes on his way.” (Tirmidhi)
- “Women are the twin halves of men.” (Tirmidhi)
- “A father gives his child nothing better than a good education.” (Tirmidhi)
- “The strong person is not the one who can wrestle someone else down. The strong person is the one who can control himself when he is angry.” (Bukhari & Muslim)
- “The seeking of knowledge is obligatory for every Muslim.” (Tirmidhi)
Last edited by Onepunchbruh,
Huh, in the Middle Ages, in Christian countries, forced marriages were normal within society. And Protestant massacres by Catholics also existed. Actually, people today focus on Islam doing shit because Christianism did that centuries ago -.-
You and I live now. We don't have 500 years after which Islam might be different.
@Raza: You accuse me of being like Hitler (1) and having an agenda (2).
1: Actually Hitler liked Islam more than Christianity as he perceived Christianity as weak. Also, the Nazis were allied with Muslims and shared the hatred against Jews. That's why hatred against Jews in Europe increases with the increase of Muslim population.
2: My agenda is to show that Islam does have sth to do with Islamic terror attacks. Should be obvious but the majority of politicians and Muslims deny it. Your agenda is just that.
Now you can either quote what I have written and discuss the topic with me directly or let it be. So far it felt like talking to a wall. Instead of engaging with my arguments you posted a thousand links. Even the long text about Aisha's puberty is not from you. Basically you are not intellectually capable of having a discussion. The only think you can do is avoiding the topic, calling me names and posting links.
Actually I never claimed that Aisha hadn't reached her puberty before Muhammad (who was in his 50s) had vaginal sex with her. It's still wrong in the eyes of most people on this planet (because she was still a child as the text you linked confirms).
I'll try one more time: One of my arguments (in short) about terrorism is as follows:
Argument: The claim Islamic terrorism has nothing to do with Islam is wrong.
Reason 1: Terrorists believe they will be rewarded with paradise for fighting and dying for their Muslim faith.
Reason 2: Social problems (exclusion, lack of job opportunity etc) is only one part of the story. If Islam has nothing do with it terrorism, why don't we see weekly terror attacks committed by poor Hindus or Buddhists?
I don't know if you can claim that most people on the planet see it as wrong. However the people who do think it's wrong is because she is not old enough to give informed consent. She may have been happy to go along with it, she may even initiate it, but it's still child sexual exploitation.
I don't know how many men would have had sex with her if there were no legal or moral consequences, but today you would be labelled as a pedophile. Just because you decide to not act on desires to avoid legal problems doesn't change it. Just like a gay man who is married and has never had a same sex relationship, is still gay.
Just because pedophilia has been socially acceptable in certain places at certain times doesn't change what it was. Beating and killing your slaves has also been socially acceptable.
I don't know why Muhammad would have been chosen by god to be a prophet knowing that he was sexually attracted to young girls, when god would be aware that in hundreds of years it would become an embarrassing part of history. The alternative is that Muhammad made up being a prophet & told people what they wanted to hear for some personal advantage. The later is bad for Muslims, the former is bad for all humanity.
Last edited by smf,
im sorry but i feel all the "justifying" is a joke "ohhh but people didn't see a issue with it back then" and "oh and it was legal, so why should he not"
I'm sorry but if the book is as infallible as many muslims believe it to be, god would have made it totally infallible and left ZERO room for manipulation or twisting, he also wouldn't have based it on the beliefs of a weird perverted/violent time and then to add insult to injury say "oh yeah and don't question this shit, its all totally correct forever and I WILL NOT! be making a "2017 edition, with new and improved gay rights and less perverts rights to bring it inline with modern understanding and tolerance of others"
if killing little children based on the colour of their hair was legal in our society I would like to hope most people would be able to see the "wrong" in that legal right and opt not to partake in the activity despite its legal standing
look I'm fine with people having their religions, but if british people were doing something bad based on English law I wouldn't just be like "oh well they aren't English as I interpreted being English so lets just completely ignore their claims to the contrary" ....no instead I would be trying to collect as many British people to "out" these kinds of people from our society, to the point where these individuals are not welcome to pray next to me, and cannot spread their vitriol in our community or face being reported and dealt with, I don't care about their claims of being part of my community I would kick them out at the first sign of them condoning shit I don't agree with, not giving them a free pass up until they cross the line and only then denouncing them
I'm sorry but if the book is as infallible as many muslims believe it to be, god would have made it totally infallible and left ZERO room for manipulation or twisting, he also wouldn't have based it on the beliefs of a weird perverted/violent time and then to add insult to injury say "oh yeah and don't question this shit, its all totally correct forever and I WILL NOT! be making a "2017 edition, with new and improved gay rights and less perverts rights to bring it inline with modern understanding and tolerance of others"
if killing little children based on the colour of their hair was legal in our society I would like to hope most people would be able to see the "wrong" in that legal right and opt not to partake in the activity despite its legal standing
look I'm fine with people having their religions, but if british people were doing something bad based on English law I wouldn't just be like "oh well they aren't English as I interpreted being English so lets just completely ignore their claims to the contrary" ....no instead I would be trying to collect as many British people to "out" these kinds of people from our society, to the point where these individuals are not welcome to pray next to me, and cannot spread their vitriol in our community or face being reported and dealt with, I don't care about their claims of being part of my community I would kick them out at the first sign of them condoning shit I don't agree with, not giving them a free pass up until they cross the line and only then denouncing them
Last edited by gamesquest1,
You accuse me of being like Hitler (1) and having an agenda (2).
A: Yes thats true because you have the same hate as him. He was a racist fool & you too.
1: Actually Hitler liked Islam more than Christianity as he perceived Christianity as weak. Also, the Nazis were allied with Muslims and shared the hatred against Jews. That's why hatred against Jews in Europe increases with the increase of Muslim population.
2: My agenda is to show that Islam does have sth to do with Islamic terror attacks. Should be obvious but the majority of politicians and Muslims deny it. Your agenda is just that.
1: Got evidence Hitler liked Islam & muslims joined him & killed millions of jews? Don't make your own bullshit story. Go learn the fact. You say his Christianity was weak. If his faith in Christianity was weak what it has to do with Muslims? Your point makes no sense. I know why you said that (To blame Muslims). You said because of Muslims joined nazis thats why the got bigger in population in europe. Where is the evidence? By just putting your opinion infront doen't make reality.
2: As I said many times Islam doesn't have to do anything with terrorists because if they (Terrorists) don't follow what islam teaches then how can you claim them to be followers of islam? I think you are a lunatic & uneducated fool. Our agenda is to make peace whether you believe or not. I'm not like You, Hitler, Bush, Bin Ladin or any of the racist shits. You have agenda that is your hatred.
Now you can either quote what I have written and discuss the topic with me directly or let it be. So far it felt like talking to a wall. Instead of engaging with my arguments you posted a thousand links. Even the long text about Aisha's puberty is not from you. Basically you are not intellectually capable of having a discussion. The only think you can do is avoiding the topic, calling me names and posting links.
Actually I never claimed that Aisha hadn't reached her puberty before Muhammad (who was in his 50s) had vaginal sex with her. It's still wrong in the eyes of most people on this planet (because she was still a child as the text you linked confirms).
You felt like you talked to wall because you are arrogant & ignorant fool. I posted those links so you can learn History about Islam. If you don't learn that then you can't put forward you opinion. If you don't know what you're speaking of. About Aisha (R.A) artical Yes thats not from me but that shows you from the history of Islam like what happened & how did they got married & was Aisha (R.A) happy with Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) etc. You got nothing left to say & thats what you come up with like i'm not capable of having discuss with a uneducated fool like you? If it's wrong then go learn the fact like what happened before putting forward your view.
I'll try one more time: One of my arguments (in short) about terrorism is as follows:
Argument: The claim Islamic terrorism has nothing to do with Islam is wrong.
Reason 1: Terrorists believe they will be rewarded with paradise for fighting and dying for their Muslim faith.
Reason 2: Social problems (exclusion, lack of job opportunity etc) is only one part of the story. If Islam has nothing do with it terrorism, why don't we see weekly terror attacks committed by poor Hindus or Buddhists?
If you don't have education & you said i'm learned ones that makes no sense. So your claim about Islam having relation with terrorists is totally irrelevant.
Terrorist believe that. That doesn't make fact like you believe Muslims are terrorist while you can't prove it that doesn't make fact.
Because you are blind & you ignore others most of the crimes that are done in this era are by non-muslims. Your brain are been controlled by media like if a Muslims steals a candy it becomes the headline of every news channel & if a non-muslim kills a person they just show it like 1min. What do you expect?
All terror attack news threads must be turned into religion wars, eh? Still, a fascinating read upon multiple sides of this argument. It's a shame that religion can be warped so easily. Not even Buddhism is immune to this, looking back at the history of Myanmar (Burma).
@gamesquest1: Agreed. That's why a famous Egyptian Ex-Muslim says he will stop talking about the Quran/Muhammad once Muslims stop using the Quran/Muhammad to implement or change TODAY'S laws. Remember, there are Sharia courts in Great Britain (even they only deal with divorce issues and such - so far).
look I can see how many people blindly follow mass media demonising, but I have had many muslim friend and know that the vast majority are nice normal people, but things I have witnessed first hand are people giving people with radical views a "free pass" because they are fellow muslims, I knew someone who was the nicest guy I have ever know, and when I brought up another guy who used to go around spreading muslim extremeist views his response was simple, leave him to express his religion his way, which tbh shocked me, and this is something I have seen a lot where the sense of brotherhood supersedes their own view of what muslims should be preaching and what they should not
its sad, and idk the solution, but just going "nahhhhhhhh that guy who went to mosque every day and ended up blowing himself up shouting allah obviously want a muslim" just looks ridiculous
its sad, and idk the solution, but just going "nahhhhhhhh that guy who went to mosque every day and ended up blowing himself up shouting allah obviously want a muslim" just looks ridiculous
Last edited by gamesquest1,
I think it's safe to stop replying to this old thread. It's title could cause a panic attack to someone while it refers to something that already happened the other day. I know I just replied at well, but you get what I mean.
yeah, I don't like getting into these topics too, and yeah its not really good to keep bumping it, I have been trying to avoid posting when it keeps popping up, I just felt like trying to slip a more middle ground view in here to counteract the "all muslims stuff is perfect" and "all muslim stuff is bad", just like most things there is good and bad on both sides, imho the good should be doing more to expose the bad, but I understand many don't want to get involved for the same reason most people don't want to get involved in "hot" topics
Harun (Aaron)
Ibrahim (Abraham)
Aadam (Adam)
Da'ud (David)
Ilias (Elijah)
Alyasa (Elisha)
Idris (Enoch)
Dhul-kifi (Ezekiel)
Hud (Eber)
Is'haq (Isaac)
Isma'il (Ishmael)
Yaqub (Jacob)
Isa (Jesus)
Ayyub (Job)
Yahya (John the Baptist)
Yusuf (Joseph)
Younis (Johah)
Lut (Lot)
Nuh (Noah)
Muhammad
Musa (Moses)
Saleh (Salah)
Sulaiman (Solomon)
Zakariyyah (Zechariah)
These are some Prophets that are mentioned by names in Quran & there were many more before. This life is a test for the hereafter. We have free will. Angels have no free will. Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) through angel gabril. Prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him) was the last & final messenger. Why God chose him is because the scripture before him got corrupted people made Jesus God & stuff. Quran is the final revelation & how was it protected is because people have memorized it & protected it. You can read Quran to know why we believe. You can never find any contradiction in it & it has facts to believe in the creator. Atheists believe there is no God. While they can't prove how they came to existence from nothing & how this complex world & this complex design of us made from nothing. They have no evidence to prove there is no God. While we Muslims say if there is a God after we die. We have prepared for it. What have you prepared? While we follow the guidance of God which is not to drink alcohol not to eat pork not do or use anything that is bad for you & be good to parents, Praise God etc. Even if die & there is nothing afterlife we win & if there is a God we have prepared for it. So we win again. While the person who doesn't believe in God. Who doesn't have good guidance like not to drink alcohol not to anything bad etc. He is a loser to this life & if afterlife exist then he is a loser to afterlife aswell.
Last edited by Onepunchbruh,
this is the exact outdated muslim style of belief that most people just find hilarious, I'm sorry but if there is a god I'm sure he/she/it would prefer to have heaven with people who didn't believe but were nice, than obnoxious self obsessed narcissists who think they are amazing and everyone should kiss their feet with how amazing they are.....good luck end up in a club full of obsessive narcissists, it sounds like turning up to a fan events where everyone thinks their costume and interpretation of the book is the best.........sounds like a fate worse than hell
-anyway, I'm done on the topic, I guess all books have their obsessive readers, there was me thingking it was just comic book nerds who try compete for ego over who knows the books best
Last edited by gamesquest1,
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