Why does a flash drive run into corruption issues with the Wii U, but not an sd card on something like the Switch?

[Jediweirdo]

No, don’t worry— I’m not planning on using a flash drive with my Wii U anytime soon. However, I was helping someone and they pointed out this question that got me wondering why that is. From what I understand, you aren’t supposed to use a flash drive with a Wii U because of it’s limited write/erase cycle. On the Wii U, it’s so bad that even Nintendo calls it out! But micro SD cards have the same problem of having a limited write/erase cycle. So, why is it completely fine on the switch, but horrendous on the Wii U? Is it like a software thing? Tbh, I don’t know a lot when it comes to Switch stuff…

 

[Sypherone]

The Switch uses the standard filesystem fat32 or exfat thats especially for flashdrives to prevent them against to many write cycles. Its a filesystem for simply storing data on it. Not a journaling filesystem like ntfs/ext4 thats log every access to a file and causes high write cycles.

The WiiU has its own encrypted filesystem which causes the problem, because those external flashdrives like USB sticks and Cards have only a rudimantary wear leveling feature that cant fully take effekt (because of the unknown filesystem) to prevent the card.

Normaly this rudimantary wear leveling feature writes new data somewhere where it finds free space. But in worst case now the data is written to much to same sector until it dies, like the game savedata thats permanently written to it. And the WiiU filesystem also seems to be have high writecycles of some implementation, even if you as user doesnt active change data on it.

And the thing is, if a cell dies a hole sector is unuseable. Because of writting new information to a cell, everytime the hole sector have to be erased before by high voltage and that causes the cells dead (not the finally write process). So the real write process on a flash chip is not replacing the old data like on a hdd. Instead the new data including the other part of the data in the old sector is written into another sector and linked again in a table where is stored, where to find which data.

//EDIT: Since the release of the WiiU in 2012 the USB sticks and SDCards are very improved. So if you might get a quality one (and not the cheapest chili wili hyper funny USB stick on ebay), you maybe dont run in problems for many years. But because of all the different types and manufacturers it cant be give a recommondation on a specific one and needs best to be recommended by someone who uses one for many years already. But this doesnt mean to neglect backups of your important data. And contrary to it a HDD/SSD is still the most resilent option.

Some basic info:
Filesystem and journaling feature

Deeper information:
Flash write amplication

 

[KleinesSinchen]

The Switch uses the standard filesystem fat32 or exfat thats especially for flashdrives to prevent them against to many write cycles. Its a filesystem for simply storing data on it. Not a journaling filesystem like ntfs/ext4 thats log every access to a file and causes high write cycles.

The WiiU has its own encrypted filesystem which causes the problem, because those external flashdrives like USB sticks and Cards have only a rudimantary wear leveling feature that cant fully take effekt (because of the unknown filesystem) to prevent the card.

Normaly this rudimantary wear leveling feature writes new data somewhere where it finds free space. But in worst case now the data is written to much to same sector until it dies, like the game savedata thats permanently written to it. And the WiiU filesystem also seems to be have high writecycles of some implementation, even if you as user doesnt active change data on it.

And the thing is, if a cell dies a hole sector is unuseable. Because of writting new information to a cell, everytime the hole sector have to be erased before by high voltage and that causes the cells dead (not the finally write process). So the real write process on a flash chip is not replacing the old data like on a hdd. Instead the new data including the other part of the data in the old sector is written into another sector and linked again in a table where is stored, where to find which data.

Some basic info:
Filesystem and journaling feature

Deeper information:
Flash write amplication

Am I the only one that never ran into that problem?
While I mostly agree with your explanations, I failed getting a USB flash device failing on the Wii U. ←(That sounds awful, but how to express it otherwise?)
I tried it. Really. I tried two different flash drives and used the Wii U excessively for some time. Why won't the things fail when failure is inevitable?

When the Wii U came out, external HDDs were more the standard for bigger portable storage than nowadays (though still the most cost efficient for huge amounts). Nintendo should have known back then that flash memory would gain importance and they should have made sure to officially take the peculiarities in account. Alas, Wii U is a beta product in some aspects, despite being amazing console with amazing games and amazing (unused) potential.

The problem with write cycles is often repeated for Wii and vWii as well – while there is virtually no writing at all when playing Wii games from USB (saves go to NAND, USB is read). What I got on the Wii was some flash devices not working at all. Black screen. Going back to loader, etc. But once I found a flash memory working it worked. For years until it corrupted… while lying unused in the drawer for some months. Restored backup, working again since.
The hatred for flash memory on Wii goes a bit too far in my opinion (I had classic rotating 3.5" HDDs with own power supply not working at all on Wii as well).
========

I want to add that I have seen simple flash sticks and SDs fail for no apparent reason from one second to the other. No heavy load involved. No heat. No huge amount of write cycles. No Wii U. No encryption, nothing. Those things aren't made to last. Sometimes the controller fails → not detected anymore, lifeless as a fish on land (the flash is probably still okay).

 

[depaul]

This is an ongoing debate. My humble point of view:
Nintendo advises against using flash drives, but that was back in 2012 when flash memory was expensive and unreliable.

I use a good brand 250GB SD card + adapter as the main storage for over 4 years.
-It never got corrupted
-It does have limited lifespan... HDDs too.
-When will it fail? Maybe long enough, until you abandon your WiiU;

If it ever fails.. I'll use the same setup again ($25 250GB SD card it's damn cheap...). Not going back to HDD.

 

[AQS]

This is an ongoing debate. My humble point of view:
Nintendo advises against using flash drives, but that was back in 2012 when flash memory was expensive and unreliable.

I use a good brand 250GB SD card + adapter as the main storage for over 4 years.
-It never got corrupted
-It does have limited lifespan... HDDs too.
-When will it fail? Maybe long enough, until you abandon your WiiU;

If it ever fails.. I'll use the same setup again ($25 250GB SD card it's damn cheap...). Not going back to HDD.

I have 2 Wiiu consoles using a similar setup (both are using a Kingston 512 gb microSD + USB card reader) , I am going on 3 years now for both of them ( daily usage + cycling through most of the games) and have never faced corruption issues. For me it's about portability/being compact as I move the consoles around a lot.

I'd have to imagine that wear leveling technology (on the card itself) has greatly improved from that 2012 article everyone keeps referring to from Nintendo.

In my humble point of view, I have a setup that works for me.. so when people read threads about this topic, just know that it's not all doom & gloom if you use a USB flash setup. (There's a lot of Hearsay and speculation about this topic, without a lot of recent reputable examples that would dissuade me from continuing with my setup)

If the cards die, then so be it , so will a mechanical HDD... This is why you have backups
Kingston offers lifetime warranty on their SD/microsd cards where I am, so no biggie.. I'll know what to do when/if they die.

Cheers!

 

[Sypherone]

Am I the only one that never ran into that problem?
While I mostly agree with your explanations, I failed getting a USB flash device failing on the Wii U. ←(That sounds awful, but how to express it otherwise?)

@KleinesSinchen I explain it easy.
There has been a lot of improvements over the years since the WiiU was released on the market. And if you get a quaility USB stick, you might shouldnt run in to problems for many years.

BUT there are that many different kinds and manufacturer of Flashdrive USB sticks, that iam not going to recommend using one. As the people tend to buy the cheapest chili wili hyper funny USB stick (or counterfight) and ending up here their USB stick is malfunctioning. Oh..my games..oh nooo my saves.. please help me...

And i find regulary more threads about a bad USB-Stick, but only one or another about a failed USB HDD/SSD here or on other media like reddit.

And yes like you say, a USB Stick is created to store temporary data on it and carrying from place to another. But not for permanently read and write access like a HDD or SSD does.

@depaul As it works for you is fine, but as you dont have any clue of the technology like you already stated in this thread. And you also dont give any support for recovering data from corrupted drives. As you only come up with at you working perfect USB stick setup if there is debate about it.
Better dont keep talking about it.

 

[davidjoaq]

I have an 2017 32 GB USB stick which somehow works well in the Wii U, it doesnt even work in my computer before i used it on the Wii U, transfering files is slow but i guess that is the Wii U fault.

 

[KleinesSinchen]

@KleinesSinchen I explain it easy.
There has been a lot of improvements over the years since the WiiU was released on the market. And if you get a quaility USB stick, you might shouldnt run in to problems for many years.

BUT there are that many different kinds and manufacturer of Flashdrive USB sticks, that iam not going to recommend using one. As the people tend to by the cheapest chili wili hyper funny USB stick (or counterfight) and ending up here their USB stick is malfunctioning. Oh..my games..oh nooo my saves.. please help me...

And i find regulary more threads about a bad USB-Stick, but only one or another about a failed USB HDD/SSD here or on other media like reddit.

And yes like you say, a USB Stick is created to store temporary data on it and carrying from place to another. But not for permanently read and write acces like a HDD or SSD does.

@depaul As it works for you is fine, but as you dont have any clue of the technology like you already stated in this thread. And you also dont give any support for recovering data from corrupted drives. As you only come up with at you working perfect USB stick setup if there is debate about it.
Better dont keep talking about it.

As long as you do not go on some kind of crusade trying to convince everybody in abandoning flash drive usage, your opinion is fine for me. HDD might be better… well it certainly is better, I agree on this.

The question I'm asking myself is: "Can a thumb drive be good enough for me in this field?" The answer is: Yes! I've read about corruption, about potential data loss and accept this. We are talking about a gaming console; no valuable data on there (my opinion). Since any data storage can crap out any time (there are a ton of other potential sources of data loss), backups of irreplaceable data – like an important savegame – are a must, including off-site copies. Wii U doesn't offer this by default (Irresponsible, Nintendo!), but homebrew/CFW enables us to copy save data. Data recovery on the other hand is a nightmare and often tried in vain.¹
By the way: The 128GB flash drives in my Wii U consoles are the absolute cheapest no-name stuff I could get. I *wanted* to see/experience that corruption myself, but it simply didn't work out like planned. To be able to say something meaningful in the forum I always try out things (and lost track of how often I bricked my O3DSXL on purpose, including 8046 BOOTROM Error)


____________________
¹ I've had my fair share of dealing with data loss caused by other people beging neglectful and remembering my e-mail address when it is too late – while having not listened to anything I said months before it happened. A few times simple software error (Windows not booting), a few times damaged HDDs.
By now I changed my attitude towards this. Provide me a backup, and I'll help restoring it. Don't have a backup? Then accept your loss or bother somebody else!

 

[Lostbhoy]

General rule of thumb is supposedly not! User reporting says 50/50.(debatable wether users have tried or just repeating what they have read)

Personally I had 2 die on the original wii and never went back since getting hdd and now wii u. Now, it wasn't till later on i discovered that using san disk cruzers was a major no no due to a lot of reports on the same devices I saw. This was ages ago tho so I don't have ref links unfortunately.

Maybe a poll would be handy with a few questions like do you have a thumb drive, how long have you used it for, has it ever had to be replaced...

 

[The Real Jdbye]

I think part of it is that the Wii U was not designed to be used with flash drives and Nintendo warns against using them. The Wii U OS is pretty horrible, and they probably did not even have flash drive wear in mind when they were developing it, as a result it writes unnecessarily to the drive a lot. Supposedly, it writes to the USB constantly even in standby mode.
Whereas the Switch was designed with flash memory as the only storage so they had to have wear in mind.

 

[Mr_Tick]

Hi all,
I've got a similar question...
Why nintendo tells us to not use flash memory (SSD, sd, ...), while the internal memory of the Wii U is a flash memory ?

 

[Jayro]

I use an all-metal USB stick in the back of my Wii U, and it hasn't failed me once. And duh, they have limited write cycles... but it's a good thing that after I install games to it, nothing writes to the drive. Nothing's been written to the drive in several years, and the games still load up just fine. So it's a VERY exaggerated "problem".

 

[Ettino]

Hi all,
I've got a similar question...
Why nintendo tells us to not use flash memory (SSD, sd, ...), while the internal memory of the Wii U is a flash memory ?

Because not all flash drives are created equally, even today. Also this warning was from a decade ago, storage drive tech has moved on a lot since then. But sometimes you do see some folks cheap out and use a terrible usb stick and expected it to work.

I personaly has had couple of the big brands sticks died on me, so I've been using hdd then ssd ever since . But hey use whatever you want really. If it works for you then great, if it dies on you then you can always go on internet and complain.

 

[CrazySquid]

Hi all,
I've got a similar question...
Why nintendo tells us to not use flash memory (SSD, sd, ...), while the internal memory of the Wii U is a flash memory ?

The WiiU has its own encrypted filesystem which causes the problem, because those external flashdrives like USB sticks and Cards have only a rudimantary wear leveling feature that cant fully take effekt (because of the unknown filesystem) to prevent the card.

I believe that Nintendo maybe modified the firmware controller for being compatible with WFS, so wear-leveling and that stuff works well, or there is a modification of some kind at least for not being so agressive on the eMMC, because otherwise it would contradict them and make not much sense.

Personally, I use a HDD not so much for write cycles (although that's important and HDDs don't have that limitation, never had a flash-device dying by write-cycles, I have an old 256MB card that I used with my Wii U that still works, or a generic chinese 8GB stick that even went into the washing machine because I forgot to take it off my clothes... and still works, with a bit of rust, but it works lol), but rather because it's the option that gives the most space at a low cost, without real performance penalties, since the Wii U is limited to 480Mbps due to USB2.0 (≈60MB/s) which an HDD can easily reach, then it makes no sense for me to get a SSD, pay more, and get speeds I won't even be able to really take advantage off.
The only benefit I can see from using a SDD is that they may use less power, and can be connected without the need of taking up two ports on the Wii U, but there a few things that can be done to overcome that limitation.
In my case, I just used an USB cable extender, put the Y cable power into that extender, and connected it to a old USB Phone charged I had lying around. Works perfectly.
Other solution would be using a external powered HDD, or External Powered USB HUB... or even opening the Wii U and removing the USB power limitation by hardware modding it.

 

[V10lator]

Why nintendo tells us to not use flash memory (SSD, sd, ...), while the internal memory of the Wii U is a flash memory ?

The internal memory (MLC, cheap flash, like most USB sticks and stuff) is cached on a SLC (expensive high-endurance, long-life flash like found in horribly expensive enterprise SSDs) just to reduce writes to the MLC. As if this wouldn't be crazy enough the SLC itself is then cached on a ramdisc. Granted I'm not sure the ramdisc is for performance reasons or to higher the lifetime of the SLC - or both.

 

[ghjfdtg]

I know not everyone will agree with me here but USB flash drives are poorly made, cheap trash. They have slow read and write and die easily. A good quality microSD in an USB 3 reader will outperform most flash drives and lasts longer.

 

[Sypherone]

The USB 2.0 Standard has a theorically max speed of 480 Mbit/s, but this will never be reached under real circumstances. The typical real speed is around ~50Mbit/s.

The USB Standards are different protocols and downgradeable, so the USB 3.0 will downgrade to USB 2.0 protocol on a USB 2.0 port including its transfer speed.