Hacking Possible SDXC support?

[Elliander]

I know this topic has been talked about in the past, but from what I could gather the threads are a few years old.

From what I understand there is no technical limitation within SDHC that prevents card sizes of greater than 32GB. Originally the SDHC standard was supposed to officially support 64 GB, but that got moved to the SDXC standard. Since the technical limit of SDHC is the same as that announced as the official limit for SDXC which is 2TB, the differences appear to be software.

According to sdcard.org : "If an SDXC memory card is inserted into a computer or device that does not support the SDXC standard, a message may prompt you to format the card. Do not format the SDXC memory card in a non-compatible device because it will erase the data on the SDXC memory card and format the card for a different file system, making it incompatible with SDXC devices."

This implies that it is not only possible for an SDXC device to read even an SD card, but an SD card can read an SDXC card. However, because of difference in formatting, the SDXC card could be formatted as an SD card making it an SD card. If an SDXC card can be turned into an SD card then that means it's all a matter of software.

I am aware that at one time the Wii could not read SDHC cards, but through softmods it eventually became possible even before it was possible officially and this was all possible because the differences between SD and SDHC are software differences. Assuming the same holds true for SDHX (which all that I can find points to) does this mean it would be possible to eventually have unofficial support for SDXC cards on the Wii?

Currently there are a number of emulators that work from the SD card slot, but not from the USB card slot. With current SD limits of 128 GB and an eventual limit of 2 TB this kind of change would make it possible to store everything one would need on a single SD card for just about everything the average user needs. It would mean that for programs like DIOS MIOS a single SD card is all anyone would need for any number of GC games and would make integration with a USB Loader for USB wii games a viable option.

So are there any groups working on this, or thinking of working on this? What would even be needed to make something like this work?

 

[DiscostewSM]

I thought that SDHC readers could read SDXC (perhaps if formatted that way), but did not have the read/write speed that an SDXC reader would have.

 

[Elliander]

I thought that SDHC readers could read SDXC (perhaps if formatted that way), but did not have the read/write speed that an SDXC reader would have.

I am sure that new dedicated SDXC readers have faster speeds than SDHC just as SDHC has faster speeds than SD. That doesn't mean it won't work. I don't expect to get full speed out of it, but I don't see any technical reason why SDXC cards up to 2 TB can't work. It's all in the way the cards are formatted.

 

[Luigi2012SM64DS]

so your saying that using softmods we can change the hardware inside the wii so it supports SDXC? i don't think so.

 

[obcd]

If it's only software, it might be perfectly possible. SDXC is still expensive, and I haven't seen much compatible devices yet.
SDHC prices are dropping, so you could use a few of those for your gc games.
I see no reason why they all need to be on the same card?

 

[Elliander]

so your saying that using softmods we can change the hardware inside the wii so it supports SDXC? i don't think so.

That's exactly what I am saying. Or rather, we can change the way the hardware responds. The SD card slot can already detect and format an SDXC card, it just can't read the formatting of an SDXC card without telling it how. If it helps, you can think of an SDXC card as the equivalent of NTFS while SD is FAT32. A computer running FAT326 can't read a drive in NTFS, but it can detect the drive and format it. There is also no reason why FAT32 can't be 1 TB in size (and mine is), but the software would normally say it can't.

i don't think so.

What technical reason do you base your opinion on?

I see no reason why they all need to be on the same card?

I could technically do that, but I'd need allot of duplicate apps folders for things I use all the time. Even so, it would be a good idea to try and get support working eventually.

If it's only software, it might be perfectly possible. SDXC is still expensive, and I haven't seen much compatible devices yet.
SDHC prices are dropping, so you could use a few of those for your gc games.

The prices are actually cheaper the more you get in one card, not more expensive as one would think. When dealing with faster cards there can be a slight increase in cost per GB, but not when dealing with a large size gap. Tigerdirect has the lowest prices I have personally seen so will use it as a model:

1 GB 80x SD Card: 15.99
2 GB 45x SD Card: 5.99 @ 2.995 per GB
4 GB Class 2 SDHC: 12.99 @ 3.2475 per GB
8 GB Class 4 SDHC: 14.99 @ 1.87375 per GB
16 GB Class 10 SDHC: 37.99 @ 2.374375 per GB
32 GB Class 10 SDHC: 59.99 @ 1.8746875 per GB

So far we see that the cheapest SD card per GB is the 4 GB, but the 4 GB example is class 2 while the 32 GB is a class 10 and only a fraction of a cent more expensive making 32 GB SDHC cards the cheaper than buying multiple SD cards of smaller capacity. So far there are only two SDXC sizes available, but the pattern continues:

64 GB 133x SDXC: 128.15 @ 2.00234375
128 GB 133x SDXC: 199.99 @ 1.562421875

In other words the absolute cheapest SD card you can buy per GB happens to be the largest SDXC card possible. Therefore it makes no logical sense to use several cards when one is cheaper and simpler. Since prices will go down as capacities increase it just makes sense to push for the Wii to use SDXC cards instead especially since, eventually the cost of a 2 TB SDXC will be as expensive as a 2 GB SD card is today, (keep in mind how expensive 2 GB used to be)

 

[Elliander]

To add a detail: SDXC has a speed of 133x while a class 10 SDHC has a speed of 100x. Even if the Wii cannot read the full speed of SDXC, we do know that a wii is physically capable of at least formatting an SDXC card to SD because all devices made for the SD standard is.

 

[DeadlyFoez]

@ Elliander, have I seen you at a renaissance fair before?

Either way, the only thing that might ever happen is homebrew supporting SDXC, but I highly doubt anyone will give a damn to bother even if the libraries are easily incorporated.

 

[nl255]

Actually, SDXC is supposed to be electronically compatible with SDHC so as long as the firmware does not have a 32GB limit it should work just fine. The only reason SDXC exists is because Microsoft does not allow drives larger than 32GB to be formatted as FAT32 so they came up with exFAT (i.e. FAT64) and the SDXC standard. There is a very good chance SDXC cards will work if you use a third party program (fat32format/guiformat, linux, mac os) to reformat it as fat32.

 

[DeadlyFoez]

(pun not intended), but fat chance. I doubt Nintendo would have left it open, but who knows for sure. Either way, the SM does not support exFAT and I doubt nintendo will ever bother paying programmers to incorporate it for a system thats at the end of it's life. And good luck on someone hacking it into the System Menu. One of the biggest things that people have wanted (before triforce and emulated nands) was more than 4 pages of channels in the system menu and no one has been able to hack that in yet.

 

[Elliander]

@ Elliander, have I seen you at a renaissance fair before?

Possibly.

Either way, the only thing that might ever happen is homebrew supporting SDXC, but I highly doubt anyone will give a damn to bother even if the libraries are easily incorporated.

I agree completely that Nintendo will never officially support SDXC. The only reason they eventually went and supported SDHC was because they were loosing sales in downloadable content and enough people complained. With the Wii-U coming out they will probably not do anything more with the Wii... That being said, I don't understand why the Homebrew scene wouldn't.

Actually, SDXC is supposed to be electronically compatible with SDHC so as long as the firmware does not have a 32GB limit it should work just fine. The only reason SDXC exists is because Microsoft does not allow drives larger than 32GB to be formatted as FAT32 so they came up with exFAT (i.e. FAT64) and the SDXC standard. There is a very good chance SDXC cards will work if you use a third party program (fat32format/guiformat, linux, mac os) to reformat it as fat32.

Ya, I remember that. They wanted SDHC to go up to 64 GB originally. I still like FAT32 though. My 1 TB USB hard drive is formatting FAT32 The thing I don't quite understand is what happens to capacities if an SDXC is formatted to SD. I imagine it would be like the situation that came out when Windows couldn't support larger than a certain size so without some upgrade the hard drive would format smaller than it could. If that is the case that only adds more weight to the idea that it's just a matter of changing the software to accept it.

 

[Elliander]

According to Wikipedia (I know, a bad source. Still this is good to know) SDHC devices can read SDXC devices. All you need to do is get them to read exFAT. So if someone can mod the wii to read exFAT, or if someone can find a way to mod an SDXC card to work at full capacity with FAT32 it should work.

SDHC host devices will accept SDXC cards that follow Version 3.0, since the interface is identical,[3] but the following issues may affect usability:

• SDXC cards are pre-formatted with Microsoft's proprietary and patented exFAT file system, which the host device might not support. Since Microsoft does not publish the specifications of exFAT and its use requires a non-free license, many alternative or older operating systems do not support exFAT for technical or legal reasons. The use of exFAT on some SDXC cards may render SDXC unsuitable as a universal exchange medium, as an SDXC card that uses exFAT would not be usable in all host devices. Since the FAT32 file system supports volumes up to the SDXC's maximum theoretical capacity of 2 TB as well, a user could reformat an SDXC card to use FAT32 for greater portability between computers (see below), but consumer products such as digital cameras and camcorders do not normally provide the choice to format SDXC cards as FAT32 nor do they accept FAT32-reformatted SDXC cards.
• An SDHC host device will not test the new capability bits defined for SDXC cards. It will therefore not be able to use the new features of SDXC, such as transfer speeds above UHS104.[26]\

 

[DeadlyFoez]

Well, good luck 'modding' an SDXC card.

But I have to ask you, what is your overall point or goal to this thread? It is cool for informational purposes but nothing else will come out of it. Really, dont expect to see SDXC working natively in a wii ever (this comment will probably cause people to just do so).

I love your ambition, which is 1,000x more than most anyone else that visits this site, but you seem to be one of the few that care enough about it, so probably the only way that it will happen is if your ambitions and curiosity causes you to do it yourself.

But hey man, good luck. And if you ever do develop anything then I will purchase an SDXC card to beta test for you.

But you have to know that with this site (or really any forum in general), just because you have a good idea is not enough to cause the great devs of this community to get working. If you truly want to see it then you pretty much have to put your effort into it yourself.

Sorry, I wish I know coding better otherwise I'd try putting in some effort myself.

 

[PsyBlade]

basically it all comes down to testing if the wii sd reader can talk to the card
afaict that should work in general

all the "moding" needed to test this is mkdosfs (or similar)

if that works homebrew can add support for "unmoded" cards if and when a exfat lib is written

 

[Elliander]

Well, good luck 'modding' an SDXC card.

But I have to ask you, what is your overall point or goal to this thread? It is cool for informational purposes but nothing else will come out of it. Really, dont expect to see SDXC working natively in a wii ever (this comment will probably cause people to just do so).

My point of writing this thread if pretty simple. I searched for threads like this and in each one I could find people pretty much say it's impossible because of hardware and then the threads die. If enough people believe that it's impossible than no one will even take a look at it, but if people were aware that it's an identical issue to when people modded SD to support SDHC than maybe someone will take a closer look.

I love your ambition, which is 1,000x more than most anyone else that visits this site, but you seem to be one of the few that care enough about it, so probably the only way that it will happen is if your ambitions and curiosity causes you to do it yourself.

But hey man, good luck. And if you ever do develop anything then I will purchase an SDXC card to beta test for you.

I did at one time study hardware and software. I was certified in A+, Net+, and Windows 2000+ back in 2001. I dabbled in ASM, but I couldn't find any reliable courses. I also dabbled in C, C++, C#, Visual Basic, and the .NET framework. Along with a bit of HTML, PHP, and CSS. When I say "dabble" I mean enough to gain a basic understanding and write simple programs, but not enough to write anything particularly useful. Currently however I am going to college to become a Genetic Engineer and the amount of effort it takes to maintain a 4.0 GPA limits the amount of time I have to learn other subjects. If, however, there was some kind of tutorial set to learn how to mod the Wii I'd study it on my free time and apply the knowledge.

But you have to know that with this site (or really any forum in general), just because you have a good idea is not enough to cause the great devs of this community to get working. If you truly want to see it then you pretty much have to put your effort into it yourself.

Sorry, I wish I know coding better otherwise I'd try putting in some effort myself.

That is true, but at some point (eventually) the need for SDXC support will become apparant. (Unless of course the Wii-U turns out to be so ridiculously easy to mod that everyone abandons to Wii entirely.lol)

basically it all comes down to testing if the wii sd reader can talk to the card
afaict that should work in general

Good point. I read that some devices that are designed to read SDHC can already read SDXC without any changes to firmware, and those that can't should at least be able to format an SDXC card as SDHC.

all the "moding" needed to test this is mkdosfs (or similar)

if that works homebrew can add support for "unmoded" cards if and when a exfat lib is written

What would you suggest? I will be buying an SDXC card around March and at that time I would be more than happy to run some tests of my own and post results.

 

[Elliander]

I found a formatter for SD, SDHC, and SDXC:

http://panasonic.jp/support/global/cs/sd/download/index.html

I also learned that most SD cards use about 10% of their storage for a type of DRM that prevents the copying of write protected files. "Super Digital" doesn't use this DRM scheme, but they only make up to SDHC for now.

 

[PsyBlade]

I meant simply format it to fat32 with the tool of your choice (I don't remember how the windows tool was called)
stick it in the wii and see which programs can read it (sysmenu, hbc, loaders, wiimc, ...)

 

[Elliander]

I found detailed instructions on how to format an SDXC card to FAT32. It seems that some companies are having customers do that instead of a firmware upgrade. That makes it seem more likely that it will be possible to get an SDXC card to work with the Wii, maybe without even a mod to the Wii.

http://support.airstash.com/entries/20174151-format-sdxc-cards-64gb-to-2tb-for-proper-operation

I am going to try this as soon as I get an SDXC card and will post the results whatever they may be.

 

[DeadlyFoez]

nice. If that works then that will be pretty kickass. It will probably work in more devices than it wont work in... especially linux based devices.

It'll be cool to know that it works with the wii, but there is still better options than to spend that kind of money on functionality that is able to be gained through other means.

 

[duffmmann]

If thats all it takes, thats brilliant. Its just a shame SDXC cards are so expensive. I'd love tot est this out, but I'd also love to have a 2TB SDXC card if i did. And if it were to not work after buying the most expensive card, I'd be pretty disappointed.