I did a full teardown on my current console just to check which NAND it uses, and it's indeed a Hynix. I don't know what year exactly it was manufactured, but based on the serial code it appears to be one of the earliest models. The person who sold it to me hadn't used it for more over 4 years by the time I bought it, still to this day it didn't show a single memory error message. I even did a second full backup recently to see if it would fail at any point during the process, not a single error.
Is there any tool like "CrystalDiskInfo" or "SSD Life" to know the current health of the NAND of the WiiU? I'm not talking about bad sectors, but about being able to see the writing limits.
From what I know from the datasheets there isn't any health reporting capability in the eMMC used in the Wii U. If it is really a retention problem from an manufacturing error, then it wouldn't help you anyway.
So from what I am reading. Certain memory chips are more vulnerable to this failure then others? Can you tell which chip your system has through the model number?
Do you think everyone with a dead Wii U opens their console to see what NAND they have? Especially when until recently we'd have had no idea to even look at the NAND since "160-0103" is not descriptive of a single thing going wrong?
You also keep asking me "how do you KNOW how NAND dies, hmm? how do you KNOW what is bad for NAND, hmm?" in such a pretentious fashion. Let's flip this. How do YOU know that it's all Hynix NAND, hmm?
I am not saying that it's all Hynix, I said the evidence we cxollected so far strongly suggest it's Hynix. Because that's what almost all the failed consoles have. So there seems to be at least correlation. So this seem to be the most likely or is there evidence to suggest otherwise?
Read/write capacities do not linearly go up with NAND size, by the way. That's a really weird thing to even claim.
The 8GB ones would have literally no use for downloaded games other than maybe a VC re-re-re-re-release here and there. This would save it precious read/write cycles over the 32GB one, which can potentially fit a Wii U game, maybe even two.
If you have two nands you can write twice as if you had just one nand,right? You claim the OS of the Wii U is the culprit, right? The OS is running from the mlc on an 8GB model like on 32GB model and it keeps it's data on the mlc. Game Data is mostly static and won't use many P/E cycles. Only the saves would. And for the Wii U the DIsc was still the primary media to distribute games. The saves, which use P/E cylces would still go to the mlc on an 8GB Wii U.
"Low quality" NAND just doesn't die like Nintoadies seem to think. Or we'd have no functioning PSPs, we'd have no functioning DSis, we'd have no functioning memory cards for older consoles, no functioning carts, etc. It's an OS fault that's causing this because the NAND chips are literally worn. Why is this happening?
Who is talking about low quality? We are talking about a manufacturing defect. Like not etching enough away of an metal layer and by that getting leaky gates. How do you differentiate that from gates that got leaky because of wear? Why can't it be a manufacturing defect if it seemingly only happens to a specific series of chips?
I'd also like to add that there was a similar "foregone conclusion" ("Nintendo is never at fault! It is those mean Hynix chips! Or the fact that people don't power it! Or... something, but not Nintendo!") about the PS3's Yellow Light of Death.
Accepted commonly to be a dead GPU. Then a few years ago someone "revived" a PS3 by replacing a supposedly problematic capacitor near the GPU. This got somehow accepted as the cause of a YLOD.
Nope. It was neither. The PS3 got so hot it was desoldering its own GPU via stress/actual melting enough to malform or, worse, crack solder balls.
Why did the latter (the capacitor) ever fix it for people? Reflowing. You're not removing that capacitor or doing anything to it without effectively reflowing the GPU. Additionally, no one's taking apart their PS3 to get that low-level on it without cleaning out the fans and replacing the horrific thermal "paste" Sony put on it initially. It getting reflowed and much needed TLC is why it was frequently brought back to life.
The PS3 hat a problem with the underfill which caused stress on the balls connecting the die to the interposer. "Reflowing" isn't a permanent fix, be it deliberate reflowing or passivly heating up when changing the cap next to it. The expansion through the heat somtimes causes cracked balls to temporary make contact. The only way to permantly fix it, it by replacing the gpu with one that doesn't have the problematic under fill. Like for these Wii Us the fix is to replace the problematic eMMC. The difference is, that all early PS3 are affected,, as all have the problematic underfill. WIth the Wii U only some have a bad eMMC:
Again. NAND chips do not reach the end of their capacity for no reason. Perhaps the Hynix chips weren't a great quality. Perhaps the lack of power didn't help either. But that won't kill NAND. NAND dies because it's either being melted (see: really bad Chinese SSDs) or, more realistically, it's at the end of its read/write cycles. It's dying in a very strange and specific way.
I can tell you one real bad issue here about the Wii U OS: why on earth is it running a freaking RAID 1 of NAND chips for the freaking eMMC? It's not benefiting at all and its instead contributing to why the Wii U is able to even die so fast.
Where is the Wii U running a RAID 1? It would be amazing if it did, you got me interested. Where is the RAID1 in the Wii U. I only found one eMMC. Where is the second one hidden for the RAID 1? And how is RAID1 supposed to cause more wear?
That are really revolutionary finding you did there. Now you just have to substantiate them and you will attract lots of attention.
I know it's a waste of time responding, but I could use some light entertaiment right now, so let's go:
It literally says "There is a problem with the system memory" and from the cases we investigated this was confirmed.
I am not saying that it's all Hynix, I said the evidence we cxollected so far strongly suggest it's Hynix. Because that's what almost all the failed consoles have. So there seems to be at least correlation. So this seem to be the most likely or is there evidence to suggest otherwise?
If you have two nands you can write twice as if you had just one nand,right? You claim the OS of the Wii U is the culprit, right? The OS is running from the mlc on an 8GB model like on 32GB model and it keeps it's data on the mlc. Game Data is mostly static and won't use many P/E cycles. Only the saves would. And for the Wii U the DIsc was still the primary media to distribute games. The saves, which use P/E cylces would still go to the mlc on an 8GB Wii U.
Who is talking about low quality? We are talking about a manufacturing defect. Like not etching enough away of an metal layer and by that getting leaky gates. How do you differentiate that from gates that got leaky because of wear? Why can't it be a manufacturing defect if it seemingly only happens to a specific series of chips?
The PS3 hat a problem with the underfill which caused stress on the balls connecting the die to the interposer. "Reflowing" isn't a permanent fix, be it deliberate reflowing or passivly heating up when changing the cap next to it. The expansion through the heat somtimes causes cracked balls to temporary make contact. The only way to permantly fix it, it by replacing the gpu with one that doesn't have the problematic under fill. Like for these Wii Us the fix is to replace the problematic eMMC. The difference is, that all early PS3 are affected,, as all have the problematic underfill. WIth the Wii U only some have a bad eMMC:
Again what does make you belief this must be caused by to manny P/E cycles? Why can't it be just leaky from the factory?
Where is the Wii U running a RAID 1? It would be amazing if it did, you got me interested. Where is the RAID1 in the Wii U. I only found one eMMC. Where is the second one hidden for the RAID 1? And how is RAID1 supposed to cause more wear?
That are really revolutionary finding you did there. Now you just have to substantiate them and you will attract lots of attention.
"System memory" tells you... basically nothing. The RAM? The eMMC? Which eMMC of the two? The SD card? The USB drive? What is it? "System memory" is nothing.
For PCs, that would be RAM. That's what Windows reports "RAM" as being. This isn't a RAM issue.
The smaller 8GB wouldn't have games on it. Which leads to a bit less wear-and-tear of the constant eMMC duplication between the two chips.
Not all PS3s were affected. Loads of launch ones still work. And people who kept theirs clean also generally saw it stay fine, since again, it was a heating issue.
"leaky" from factory? What does this even mean?
You have no idea what RAID 1 is? Simple, it's when you use a secondary drive to mirror the image of the other as a backup. Actually, I was hasty in saying that. The Wii U does a RAID 1+0 setup with the two NANDs. The SLC is only allowed to exist as an absolute mirror of the MLC. But if either gets compromised or damaged, the whole thing dies (which is a RAID 0 feature).
The contents are "married" to each other and have to be duplicates. That's a RAID setup, kid.
You unironically asking how a mirrored setup causes more damage is incredible.
Troll feeding because I'm not a Nintoadie and know how NAND works, okay buddy. lmfao.
Not sure what happened to the discussion but anyways, Nintendo has always used "system memory" to refer to the system internal storage memory.
And I know how this is going to turn out already, but well, the error in Japanese says this literally "There is a problem within the system storage memory.". Let's remember Nintendo is a Japanese company and that's the original version of the message.
Sorry to butt in, but I wonder if the WiiU nand chips implement a similar refresh feature to the one found in 3DS and Switch carts.
If that is the case, and the system runs it on boot, it may theoretically be possible to get the system to fix itself by repeatedly powering it up and down, although it might take a really long time.
If it is literally dependent on the other to function, yes, it's a RAID 1.
Enterprise SSDs do not have an SLC the same exact size as the MLC nor do they require it to function. Troll harder, please.
The SLC and MLC in the Wii U are literally MIRRORS of each other and can't exist independently.2
"to bash Nintendo"
Dude they won't kouhai your sempais or whatever you're on about.
Not sure what happened to the discussion but anyways, Nintendo has always used "system memory" to refer to the system internal storage memory.
And I know how this is going to turn out already, but well, the error in Japanese says this literally "There is a problem within the system storage memory.". Let's remember Nintendo is a Japanese company and that's the original version of the message.
Nintendo being "a Japanese company" stops being an excuse when they have more money than God, Allah, Buddha, and Scrooge McDuck combined. They can, you know, learn how to communicate in areas they market in.
Sorry to butt in, but I wonder if the WiiU nand chips implement a similar refresh feature to the one found in 3DS and Switch carts.
If that is the case, and the system runs it on boot, it may theoretically be possible to get the system to fix itself by repeatedly powering it up and down, although it might take a really long time.
I am going through all our Storage Servers right now to remove the RAID 5 and 6 to disable the SLC cache and improve longevity. If RAID 1 is that bad Imagine what RAID 6 is doing, it must be 6 times as bad. My Boss will be so impressed. I am sure I can expect a raise after that.
Yes, and they get all written at once. That means you have 250 as many P/E cycles as there needs to be. And to make best use of that redundancy the Wii U will fail if any of the copies goes bad. Nintendo does this on purpose, because they hate @Dyhr
Sorry to butt in, but I wonder if the WiiU nand chips implement a similar refresh feature to the one found in 3DS and Switch carts.
If that is the case, and the system runs it on boot, it may theoretically be possible to get the system to fix itself by repeatedly powering it up and down, although it might take a really long time.
Please don't, post this In multiple threads and as @GaryOderNichts said: Nope. Different error.
//EDIT: There's a lot of fake news on YouTube, Twitter, Reddit & co right now. I would highly suggest to not listen to random people but to the pros. Also never try to fix something before inspecting the logs as it could be a completely different error (like that Twitter dude states to have fixed a bad eMMC while in reality he fixed a CBHC brick)
Why are you such an asshole to people who are aren't in your little inside group but are just looking at and/or analyzing a problem? I never said that I had all of the answers or that anything was definitive. I don't spent my time on GBATemp looking at contradictory posts as my time is much better spent performing my own analysis.
If you have any actual interest in offering any meaningful data, that would be great. I can tell you that I've repaired 5 Wii systems, all exhibiting 160-0101 errors as well as 160-0103 errors by simply correcting the title ID. I currently have no consoles that have a bad block eMMC.
That doesn't mean that they don't exist, it simply means that I don't have any in my possession, yet.
Jesus. Some of you people want to make enemies out of anyone.
You get the problem with the title ID when dooing a factory reset or uninstalling the DS game when using CBHC. But the user would know he did that. We (as the community) know that, that's why @GaryOderNichts created that option in the recovery menu.
But if the error suddenly appears or after a long time of storage without doing any of these things or not even having CBHC, then you obviously can't be that problem.
I have two consoles with an bad eMMC, maybe even 3 but I have to look into that one first.
Where people say you need to solder is when you get these MEDIA ERROS. For a CBHC brick we of course recommend that UDPIH recover menu. Maybe I should add a disclaimer to my thread to tell people it doesn't apply to a CBHC brick.
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