Is abusing techniques cheating??

[tbb043]

If it's in the game, it's in the game.

 

[Smuff]

No. You are all wrong

 

[duffmmann]

Because knowledge is what jeopardy is all about. Glitches are not what videogames are about.

I gotta say, first of all, I don't consider Snaking or L-canceling to be glitches. These are parts of the game you can choose to utilize or not. I agree with you, glitches are not what video games are about, however, being the very best at the game is what competitive players are all about, and utilizing advanced techniques to try and win, I would not consider to be cheating. And again, thats what these are, advanced techniques. Glitching is stuff like clipping through walls and shooting through them to kill your enemy, in that case I'd agree, that is cheating.

 

[Parasite X]

You've got to be kidding me I love using glitches, cheats & cheat devices of course I use the cheat devices for single play only but my arsenal of cheats to crush my opponents laughs evilly >:-)

 

[grossaffe]

I gotta say, first of all, I don't consider Snaking or L-canceling to be glitches. These are parts of the game you can choose to utilize or not. I agree with you, glitches are not what video games are about, however, being the very best at the game is what competitive players are all about, and utilizing advanced techniques to try and win, I would not consider to be cheating. And again, thats what these are, advanced techniques. Glitching is stuff like clipping through walls and shooting through them to kill your enemy, in that case I'd agree, that is cheating.

The post makes more sense seeing that you were referring to the L-canceling and such rather than the wave-dashing and other glitches.

 

[Dork]

Simply put, it's not cheating. No one has any advantages over each other, your opponent can also perform the "advanced" techniques. If they don't know how they need to get gud.

It's not cheating, it's just bad mechanics.

Pretty much, all of the possible exploitations of the physics of that game are essentially the number #1 reason Melee became the optimal competitive smash game.

 

[DinohScene]

It's just abusing the game engine.
Cheating, to me is using external codes and modifications.

 

[jonthedit]

Personally I saw this thread too, and I can say Snaking is fair game.
Its not an "exploit" as it was intentionally in the game. They want players to try hard.

 

[FAST6191]

Seeing some of the replies here makes me think of all the news articles where country X has kids play games "just for fun"*. Equally I have no problems with grinding people into the dirt, of course most sports/games/things I play have a score differential as an important concept somewhere and not doing that would endanger chances later on.

Now there might be times you go easy on a friend or younger family member if you are training someone new to play with you.

Equally if it is in the code, and not explicitly called a cheat within the code, then it plays. I am all for house rules and hacking things out though.

*some of this might appear to be at odds with the tears of laughter that come up when someone mentions a lot of "competition" computer gaming (mainly Smash Brothers and Pokemon), that is not that I believe games can not be done competitively, just that those presently thinking they are doing competition are at best playing dress up.

 

[duffmmann]

*some of this might appear to be at odds with the tears of laughter that come up when someone mentions a lot of "competition" computer gaming (mainly Smash Brothers and Pokemon), that is not that I believe games can not be done competitively, just that those presently thinking they are doing competition are at best playing dress up.

To this point I disagree. These people are certainly competing in the games in question, no doubt about that, a competition is something that yields a winner and loser(s). What I do take issue to though, in a similar vein, is people referring to these competitions as sports or esports. These terms probably aren't used much with Smash Bros, but I see it used a lot in competitive Star Craft and DOTA. As far as I'm concerned, nothing can be considered a sport (or form of the word sport) if the activity at hand isn't helping to keep you in shape (in fact can contribute to keeping you out of shape), and one where you regularly eat doritos and drink mountain dew. Those just simply aren't sports. Plain and simple.

 

[FAST6191]

A competition might be that, does not make it a good competition though (competition design and theory is a fairly well developed part of maths/game theory). However seeing all the various banned characters because reasons, oh wait someone figured out a strategy so it is viable again, oh wait, no stage ?, items limited to, tournament structure set up to be like this because no reason.... It might make for a spectacle but it is not a good competition, or at least not a good competition of smash brothers. Pokemon just seems woefully underdeveloped most of the time.

On sports I am not sure the "keeps you fit" thing really applies, I would probably go with terms like tests of skill. It is hard to nail down, especially as there are legal issues as well (right up to things like immigration), but I would argue against the need to have a term like keeps you fit in there.

 

[Veho]

As far as I'm concerned, nothing can be considered a sport (or form of the word sport) if the activity at hand isn't helping to keep you in shape

And yet chess and sumo wrestling are sports. Go figure.

 

[duffmmann]

And yet chess and sumo wrestling are sports. Go figure.

There is a fair amount of physical toll during a sumo match. The match itself isn't going to make the wrestlers out of shape (in fact if all they did was sumo wrestle and nothing outside of it, they'd start to get in shape for sure), the training and diet outside of the actual sport is what makes a sumo wrestler "out of shape". But just cause you're fat playing any sport doesn't mean that it isn't a sport.

Chess I also wouldn't consider a sport. It's a board game at the end of the day. An extremely sophisticated one that takes a ton of thought to master. Even still I wouldn't call it a sport.

 

[FAST6191]

And yet chess and sumo wrestling are sports. Go figure.

Does Sumo really count as out of shape?

Speaking of bad competitions though

 

[duffmmann]

A competition might be that, does not make it a good competition though (competition design and theory is a fairly well developed part of maths/game theory). However seeing all the various banned characters because reasons, oh wait someone figured out a strategy so it is viable again, oh wait, no stage ?, items limited to, tournament structure set up to be like this because no reason.... It might make for a spectacle but it is not a good competition, or at least not a good competition of smash brothers. Pokemon just seems woefully underdeveloped most of the time.

On sports I am not sure the "keeps you fit" thing really applies, I would probably go with terms like tests of skill. It is hard to nail down, especially as there are legal issues as well (right up to things like immigration), but I would argue against the need to have a term like keeps you fit in there.

I don't mean the sport keeps you fit, but it contributes to a healthy lifestyle for you in the moment of the activity in question, maybe those are better words to convey what I mean. I'm not redefining what I consider sports here, I'm just trying to make my point of view more clear so there isn't any confusion.

 

[FAST6191]

Where does that place driving in the grand scheme of things?

 

[Clydefrosch]

my only problem with snaking is that, the moment someone who isnt a pro at it is thrown together with a bunch of snakers, he might as well give up on the spot. same for people who have an icky dpad. on my first ds lite, the dpad would only accept the left input if hit with a bit of force, which was just bearable to race, but two slideboosts in succession were pretty much impossible with that. i also know of people who broke their dpad through snaking or trying to do it. i see it as a bad omen when that happens.
in games where i significantly outplay someone who came over to play with me, i usually selfimposed handicaps (if there weren't any present ingame already) and I feel that this game would have been much more enjoyable for people, if snakers at least tried to keep the 100% snake runs among themselves a bit. then again, mario kart online play isn't exactly the place where one would expect to find considerate people in the first place, what with all the ragequits, cheaters etc.

my general opinion, snaking has been an unintended byproduct of forcing boosts into the game to make it more actiony. but its not exactly a glitch which is why i endured it. but personally, i wouldn't have minded seeing it go or after every boost, there was a 1 or 2 second delay before the next boost would charge up.

 

[Kayot]

I tend to think about real life scenarios when considering things like fair. Fair does nothing but make the weak weaker and remove any reason for learning and competition. Humans evolved their brains specifically to be unfair to the other species on the planet. It's a corner stone in evolution to be unfair.

That said... As stated before, it's defiantly cheap. I had a friend do something like that in a fighting game. I won't play him in fighting games anymore. Being cheap is a good way to lose playing buddies. I still curb stomp him in space sims and rts though. I don't have to be cheap to kick someone a$$.

P.S. I thought the single player campaign would prepare me for multiplayer... I have never been so wrong.

 

[Kane49]

When i play with friends theres simply no reason to snake or use the crazy shortcuts, unfortunately i can't turn off drifting around corners ^^ its loads more fun that way.
However when i played online i either did to train or because i like winning, both of these require me to snake.

 

[FAST6191]

When i play with friends theres simply no reason to ... use the crazy shortcuts

Assuming we are not talking N64 rainbow road style glitches surely half the point of a lot of the tracks is the shortcuts and what they can do for you.