Hacking Question In terms of security, is the Switch more 3DS-like or more PS4/Vita-like?

[WiiUBricker]

What I mean is if the Switch is designed like a 3DS (or a Wii U) where you can exploit it on a low firmware, install stuff like A9LH or run an emuNAND, update to the latest firmware and play all games without issue

OR

if the Switch is like a PS Vita (or PS4) where there is an exploit on a low firmware but no emuNAND or A9LH sort of stuff is possible and where new games won’t work because they are signed for a newer firmware.

 

[YeezusWalks]

as of right now it seems to be like ps vita... people are talking about how certain games are going to require 3.01 fw so it's most likely like vita... let's just hope for 3.61+ cfw for vita

 

[AutumnWolf]

as of right now it seems to be like ps vita... people are talking about how certain games are going to require 3.01 fw so it's most likely like vita...

???
Some (newer) 3DS games also require a higher firmware to be played (unless you use hax) , just like some PS4 games and Wii U games...
So...

I say it´s more like the PS4/Vita or somewhere in between the vita and the 3DS (in terms of security)
Also E-fuses

 

[Arras]

It's firmly in "let's whip out the crystal ball" territory. That said, given Nintendo's track record it's probably closer to the 3DS.

 

[Ryab]

???
Some (newer) 3DS games also require a higher firmware to be played (unless you use hax) , just like some PS4 games and Wii U games...
So...

I say it´s more like the PS4/Vita or somewhere in between the vita and the 3DS (in terms of security)

yeah but with the 3ds has a bootrom exploit so you can update and keep your cfw

 

[AxlSt00pid]

Red/EmuNAND is not possible on Switch because it will still burn the necessary efuses for the FW in Red/EmuNAND, so when you try to go to SysNAND and it's FW is lower than the FW in Red/EmuNAND the system will see more efuses burnt than it's FW requires, think that it has been downgraded, panic and won't boot up at all

 

[Gnarmagon]

Red/EmuNAND is not possible on Switch because it will still burn the necessary efuses for the FW in Red/EmuNAND, so when you try to go to SysNAND and it's FW is lower than the FW in Red/EmuNAND the system will see more efuses burnt than it's FW requires, think that it has been downgraded, panic and won't boot up at all

Partially True....
When the first Kexploits are avaible and there is a way to dump the decrypted FW (like on the 3DS),there could be a way to patch out efuses....(the EmuNand does start without burning Efuses....)

 

[AxlSt00pid]

Partially True....
When the first Kexploits are avaible and there is a way to dump the decrypted FW (like on the 3DS),there could be a way to patch out efuses....(the EmuNand does start without burning Efuses....)

To do that you must need a bug on the programmation of the efuses and modify it to disable the efuses entirely (Note: This doesn't mean that there isn't one or two bugs on there)

 

[mendezagus]

Red/EmuNAND is not possible on Switch because it will still burn the necessary efuses for the FW in Red/EmuNAND, so when you try to go to SysNAND and it's FW is lower than the FW in Red/EmuNAND the system will see more efuses burnt than it's FW requires, think that it has been downgraded, panic and won't boot up at all

Could it be possible to "trick" the Sysnand into "understanding" there are enough efuses so that the burns won´t matter??

 

[AxlSt00pid]

Could it be possible to "trick" the Sysnand into "understanding" there are enough efuses so that the burns won´t matter??

You would need either:

a)A CFW that disables/modifies the efuses behavior or makes the system ignore them, but having that will make EmuNAND a bit useless

b)A homebrew app that disables/modifies the efuses behavior, but that would require a bug in the efuses programmation or high-level permissions wich we currently don't have

 

[mendezagus]

You would need either:

a)A CFW that disables/modifies the efuses behavior or makes the system ignore them, but having that will make EmuNAND a bit useless

b)A homebrew app that disables/modifies the efuses behavior, but that would require a bug in the efuses programmation or high-level permissions wich we currently don't have

Thanks for the quick answer! So this eventual bug in the efuses programation (or high level permissions wich sould really hard to get) is THE KEY to allow us to play backups of future games (over 3.0 firmware). I´m sure all hackers are focusing on this

 

[Abu_Senpai]

I personally believe that the Switch in terms of security is a hybrid of the 3DS & PS Vita. But that is just my opinion. I dont now if the X1 or PS4 have fuses which is why i wont compare the switch security to those two machines.

 

[Gnarmagon]

From my understanding is the Switch like a 3DS on 11.6 (just an Example) and it's by far not as secure as the Vita is....
The is built entirely proprietary so no Dependencies that are Open Source that may have Bugs like on Nintendo Consoles.
Read here for more about the Vita (by YifanLu) http://yifan.lu/2013/09/10/why-hacking-the-vita-is-hard-or-a-history-of-first-hacks/

 

[TotalInsanity4]

From a software standpoint it's supposedly more like the 3DS, but it has hardware checks that are similar to how the XBox 360 worked

 

[cualquiercosa327]

Hello,i dont understand why people doesnt let to open threads on question as that than has no answer today:
it is something than only time will show.
About what we have now is than they are a userland exploit for a fimware version (3.0.0) and above (which will no be investigated according the hackers than found it):they only focus on 3.0.0 .
it is true than it has been fast (only a few moths about console release) but we are talking on a userland exploit no kernel.

Until now these is the only info we have about Switch.
will be the new fw exploitable?Maybe,but almost the group than found the first exploit are no going to investigate them and focus only on what they found.what will happen is something none knows.
You can no know about how holes it has only compare what happen with 3DS or Wii U (But almost until now it seems than Sony has been more carefull with the security of their machines than Nintendo ,almost on the past..)

About other consoles : probably the most secure device until now is psvita.There were lots of investigation,also they had to create founding for investigate it and use new techniques/devices for it.read on Yi fan Lu web ).And they only found a user exploit based on a error on an app : PSN/PSN Unity APP which were too limited and finaly they found a hole on a specific fimware which lead to Henkaku.But the system is so secure than only works on this fimware.
it seems Sony did a great job with this machine.(I wish they have dedicate more time and effort to create great games for it..)

PS4? if you read wololo forums (or yi fan lu web) you will discover than it is totally insecure if you comparate it with vita and ps3 (yes,ps3 had a huge mistake but it was very secure anyway).
In fact there are lots of kernel exploits than has no been released ,which included one for the latest fimware 5.0.0 (but they have existed and now it seem will be released one for 4.05 and below .Also was one for 1.X).

XBox?it is dificult know because ,almost there are no many public info about its investigations.Maybe there are no many hackers interesting on it (Most of this games are on PC,and the machine has no been very succesfull )

The same happen with the emulation : there are some machines more dificult to emulate (an example is ps2 and ps3,which most people said than it will be imposible until a long time,but there are a lot of skilled developers than show it is posible and it is in an advanced state comparing with the others.Others as Xbox (the first) which hardware is very similar to an older pc and there were some emulator without many advance (the most promissing is XQemu but if we comparate it with ps3 emu we can see it is on its early stages)

In summary : only the time and interest of hackes will answer this kind of questions.Until them forget about it and enjoy this great machine.

(In my case i have lots of games i wanna finish which will make i dont update until i finish them and i wanna more games .I know Mario Odissey seem amazing,but i have no enought time to play it (nor money for so many games): i prefer enjoy what i have and time will said.

 

[hatredg0d]

Thanks for the quick answer! So this eventual bug in the efuses programation (or high level permissions wich sould really hard to get) is THE KEY to allow us to play backups of future games (over 3.0 firmware). I´m sure all hackers are focusing on this

I don't think any of the real hackers care about piracy.

 

[Zero72463]

Red/EmuNAND is not possible on Switch because it will still burn the necessary efuses for the FW in Red/EmuNAND, so when you try to go to SysNAND and it's FW is lower than the FW in Red/EmuNAND the system will see more efuses burnt than it's FW requires, think that it has been downgraded, panic and won't boot up at all

Doesn't the PS4 use a system like this? I know they have a method to prevent downgrading (not only just the "You can't install this firmware." text, even if you bypass that).

 

[The Real Jdbye]

You would need either:

a)A CFW that disables/modifies the efuses behavior or makes the system ignore them, but having that will make EmuNAND a bit useless

b)A homebrew app that disables/modifies the efuses behavior, but that would require a bug in the efuses programmation or high-level permissions wich we currently don't have

EmuNAND would still be useful as without it you wouldn't be able to update without losing exploit access, at least not until there's a bootrom exploit.
Actually, relying on a CFW to patch out efuse checks seems dangerous, what if Nintendo sneakily adds more checks in an update and the CFW doesn't patch them out, it would result in a lot of bricks. Or if the CFW is buggy and the patches fail for whatever reason.

 

[lisreal2401]

eFuses takes notes from the 360, the actual userland stuff is probably similar to 3DS/Wii U but that's only my guess. I'd expect a permanent CFW to require some sort of hardware modification unless there's a really, really big flaw in how the updates work.

 

[Youkosnake]

As far as I can tell, it's more like Android.