If I wanted to move to US this is what I'd need?

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Lacius

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Minimum wage is not a good thing at all. After all, the money has to come from somewhere. Potential sources businesses include increasing prices (which decreases business and reduced profits), reducing hours, reducing jobs, or flat out going out of business.

Various sources that agree:
http://dailysignal.com/2017/08/02/minimum-wage-proven-harm-workers-left-support/
http://redalertpolitics.com/2017/08/02/15-minimum-wage-cost-45000-jobs-just-one-county-report/

I have yet to see a source in favor if minimum wage that's based on reality. Posts like this one fail to consider where the money comes from.
It's been demonstrated time and time again that an increased minimum wage does not decrease available jobs. In many cases, an increased minimum wage has also lead to an increase in employment, not a decrease. A business hires the fewest number of employees it needs to be maximally profitable. If the amount of money an employee makes for a business outweighs the increase in the wage, then no jobs are lost. When poorer individuals make more money, they also tend to spend it, which also increases demand for business and stimulates the economy. As much data as there is, particularly in recent years, this is hardly controversial anymore.

If guns were flat out illegal here, criminals would still find ways to kill victims even though gun related violence would go down and keep guns away from people who use them for self defense. Plus have you looked at my point of how easy it would be for them to smuggle thousands of weapons in from South of the border? Smuggling weapons into the US across the border wouldn't be that hard if they can smuggle millions of dollars of drugs across, would it not? Stupid people are still going to find ways to kill their victims anyways, even if it doesn't include guns. What keeps them from using knives or building a bomb? Virtually anything can be used as a weapon if you can figure out how to use it.
Just looking at the numbers, guns can kill a lot more people than knives. I would much rather people used knives. With regard to your point about bombs, should that mean bombs should be legal?
 
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grossaffe

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Just because you add "durrrr" to things doesn't make them false or true. Guns ARE scary. There are way more massacres because of them (we used to have as many massacres as the US, then after Port Arthur in 1996 our prime minister brought in tougher gun laws and we have had none since) and police are cornered into being brutal because of the large risk anyone they interact with could have a gun and would feel to qualms about shooting them. I used to think maybe there was something wrong with all American policemen or maybe the system was bad somehow, every time I saw on the news that yet another American policeman shoot an innocent bystander. But someone pointed out what it is like from a policeman's point of view and now I sympathise.

Having no public system to fall back on is awful. If you can't afford health insurance, you could die from a treatable illness. Not to mention, there is very little regulation so hospitals and drug manufacturers can charge what they like. Here, we have a system called the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme. Certain drugs are placed on it (ones that have proven to be very effective and safe, and needed by a large number of people) and it means that people can buy them at a capped price with the government paying the remainder. This way everyone has access to life saving medication no matter what their circumstances. The government negotiates prices so the drug companies can't charge too much, if they want their drug on the Scheme (which they do, because then you get an insane number of sales). In the US, the government lacks that buying power - it can tell drug companies that they would like them to only charge a certain amount but they would just laugh. Very few people have access to the US' equivalent (Medicare drug benefit D), only the disabled and elderly, and even then they have to pay for it. So the government has no power to stop them charging ludicrous amounts of money for stuff people need to stay alive. In fact, the government doesn't even negotiate with them as a whole, it makes each insurance company providing the Medicare benefit D negotiate with the drug companies individually. And how do you think a little company facing a massive drug conglomeration is going to fare? Quite badly - therefore very expensive drugs. Capitalism doesn't work with medicine - how much is your life worth? You can't just choose not to buy it because it is too expensive. Capitalism works when people can choose not to buy your stuff if you charge too much, so you are forced to charge less if you want sales. But medicine can be "worth" infinity $ since we are talking about your life.
In terms of hospitals, here, there is a set benefit paid per item number. Hospitals can charge more if they wish, but people can always choose a public hospital that only charges the set benefit (so free for the patient) or their insurance provider can direct them to go to a private hospital that charges a lower amount over. This keeps hospital prices at an acceptable level, plus someone who can't afford any insurance can still be treated, they might just have to go on a waiting list or be in a large shared room. In the US, with no free services for people to fall back on, hospitals can charge what they want because the alternative is death.

Minimum wage being low should concern everyone. Not just because those working full time on minimum wage would be living in abject misery (have some compassion for your fellow countrymen!) but also because they can't afford to be spending much which makes businesses suffer. It is a bit of a vicious cycle - you reduce prices (in a business that low income earners tend to spend at, say fast food or a grocery store), and pay your staff less, and they in turn have less disposable income and spend less in your shops. Increasing the minimum wage (very slowly and gently) would mean more business for those stores and they could afford those wages without losing money overall. If they can be clever about it they can even benefit from the increased spending power of the poor without their wage bill going up too much - and profit from the whole thing. It would also increase pressure on the higher paid workers - not the rich ones but the ones just below middle class), because they would complain about getting minimum wage and would want to still be a little above the ones really at the bottom. This would push the middle class up a tiny bit, and then people above them would hardly move at all, then the slightly rich would probably not move, with the actual rich not really noticing the whole affair. It benefits everyone, not just the actual poor who are getting a massive boost to their pay packet.

You don't get guns, so you think they're scary and America is therefore dangerous. Guess what? America is not, in fact, particularly dangerous. And it is a huge country with a lot of options of where to live with varying degrees of safety. Having legal gun ownership does not make America inherently dangerous, and in fact most of the places with the strictest gun control laws are the most dangerous parts of America. All that aside, it's a personal choice whether you want to live in a country with legal gun ownership, not a matter of "country X is better than country Y because of this criterion that is objectively superior"

Healthcare: Again, not a perfect system, and neither is socialized medicine. It's a fucking complicated subject that can't be reduced to "capitalism bad, socialism good". Who do you think is going to dump billions of dollars into research into new medicines if they aren't going to make a profit? Furthermore, I do not trust the government to run healthcare. The fewer things I have to rely on the government for, the better, as the more things you rely on it for, the more they can control you. You want to rely on government handouts? Be my guest, but it is not the objectively correct solution.

Minimum wage? Again, take a course on economics. Furthermore, realize that the US is, again, a big fucking country. Cost of living in bum-fuck Wyoming is far different from the cost of living in New York City. Having a singular national minimum wage that covers both is pretty fucking stupid. Added to that, minimum wages bring unemployment; more expensive it is to hire people, the less of them you hire. It doesn't just magically make everyone richer. And again, learn a trade and get a real job and you won't bemoan "low" minimum wages. Hardly a reason to avoid coming to America. Especially considering we get so many immigrants more than happy to work under the minimum wage.
 
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rileysrjay

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It's been demonstrated time and time again that an increased minimum wage does not decrease available jobs. In many cases, an increased minimum wage has also lead to an increase in employment, not a decrease. A business hires the fewest number of employees it needs to be maximally profitable. If the amount of money an employee makes for a business outweighs the increase in the wage, then no jobs are lost. When poorer individuals make more money, they also tend to spend it, which also increases demand for business and stimulates the economy. As much data as there is, particularly in recent years, this is hardly controversial anymore.


Just looking at the numbers, guns can kill a lot more people than knives. I would much rather people used knives. With regard to your point about bombs, should that mean bombs should be legal?
How in the world did you get bombs should be legal out of my post? I was saying that stupid people, criminals, terrorists, etc. Are going to find ways to kill their victims (via knives, bombs, even rocks) anyways if they don't have guns and the average Joe won't have a good way to protect himself from them. Also this whole argument is off topic (including the health care and minimum wage ones), we should probably move this elsewhere or preferably just stop before this becomes twenty pages long as I doubt we'll change each other's minds.
 

grossaffe

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Also this whole argument is off topic (including the health care and minimum wage ones), we should probably move this elsewhere or preferably just stop before this becomes twenty pages long as I doubt we'll change each other's minds.
Agreed, none of this bullshit ever belonged in this thread.
 
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Tekniquez

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the US sucks. trust me you dont want to be here, if i had the means id up and leave asap and thats the honest truth, these PIGS(cops) run around like its the wild west shooting up anything and everything.
 

Lacius

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You don't get guns, so you think they're scary and America is therefore dangerous. Guess what? America is not, in fact, particularly dangerous. And it is a huge country with a lot of options of where to live with varying degrees of safety. Having legal gun ownership does not make America inherently dangerous, and in fact most of the places with the strictest gun control laws are the most dangerous parts of America. All that aside, it's a personal choice whether you want to live in a country with legal gun ownership, not a matter of "country X is better than country Y because of this criterion that is objectively superior"
Gun violence is much worse here than in a lot of other countries.

Healthcare: Again, not a perfect system, and neither is socialized medicine. It's a fucking complicated subject that can't be reduced to "capitalism bad, socialism good". Who do you think is going to dump billions of dollars into research into new medicines if they going to make a profit? Furthermore, I do not trust the government to run healthcare. The fewer things I have to rely on the government for, the better, as the more things you rely on it for, the more they can control you. You want to rely on government handouts? Be my guest, but it is not the objectively correct solution.
Socialized medicine isn't perfect, but it's objectively many times better than a private insurance market. Research into new medicines is still going to happen, because it's still going to be profitable.

Minimum wage? Again, take a course on economics. Furthermore, realize that the US is, again, a big fucking country. Cost of living in bum-fuck Wyoming is far different from the cost of living in New York City. Having a singular national minimum wage that covers both is pretty fucking stupid. Added to that, minimum wages bring unemployment; more expensive it is to hire people, the less of them you hire. It doesn't just magically make everyone richer. And again, learn a trade and get a real job and you won't bemoan "low" minimum wages. Hardly a reason to avoid coming to America. Especially considering we get so many immigrants more than happy to work under the minimum wage.
Higher minimum wage is not correlated with higher unemployment for the reasons I listed above. The current national minimum wage is a joke, regardless of which state one lives in. Ideally, we'd have a national living wage, and places like Wyoming and New York could add to it as they see fit. A higher minimum wage benefits everyone, not just the people making that wage. First, it stimulates the economy. Second, if a minimum wage is higher, then wages for "real jobs" will also go up if they have to compete with the minimum wage. By having a low minimum wage, everyone suffers, whether it's because of a stagnant economy, or because "real job" wages are proportionately lower. That's not even to mention the morality of making sure people who work full time don't live in poverty.

@Quantumcat and @Lacius: I have not seen any sources that say that, and the many sources I have found say the opposite. Would you mind sharing your sources?
This would be the part of the conversation where I would link to three sources, but if you haven't seen "any sources" that say that, then I don't believe you're being honest in your research.

How in the world did you get bombs should be legal out of my post? I was saying that stupid people, criminals, terrorists, etc. Are going to find ways to kill their victims (via knives, bombs, even rocks) anyways if they don't have guns and the average Joe won't have a good way to protect himself from them. Also this whole argument is off topic (including the health care and minimum wage ones), we should probably move this elsewhere or preferably just stop before this becomes twenty pages long as I doubt we'll change each other's minds.
I didn't say bombs should be legal. I'm demonstrating how the "if guns are illegal, some criminals are just going to find ways to get them anyway" argument is absurd. By that logic, there's no reason for bombs to be illegal.
 

rileysrjay

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the US sucks. trust me you dont want to be here, if i had the means id up and leave asap and thats the honest truth, these PIGS(cops) run around like its the wild west shooting up anything and everything.
1) the U.S. isn't near as bad as the media makes it out to be, and
2) can we stop the pissing match between ideologies and countries? This is getting pretty ridiculous. If it gets worse I honestly might report this thread to the mods to have them close this.
 

Lacius

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For the record, I don't think the United States sucks. A lot of its citizens suck, and our President sucks, but the United States generally doesn't suck. It's not true for everyone, but I'm happy, healthy, and financially pretty well off.

However, I also don't think we're intrinsically the best country. I can't think of anything good that we have that many other countries don't also have. Our social inequalities are quite bad, for example.

According to the World Happiness Report, the United States is #14.
 

rileysrjay

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I didn't say bombs should be legal. I'm demonstrating how the "if guns are illegal, some criminals are just going to find ways to get them anyway" argument is absurd. By that logic, there's no reason for bombs to be illegal.
I don't think you fully understand my argument and you also took my argument out of context, but oh well. I'm done replying to you at least in this thread as you don't seem to get my whole argument and like I said earlier, this pissing match between us and others is just ridiculous.
 

Quantumcat

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the US sucks. trust me you dont want to be here, if i had the means id up and leave asap and thats the honest truth, these PIGS(cops) run around like its the wild west shooting up anything and everything.
I used to think the same thing, but when you think about it from their perspective you can kind of understand why they are like that. If any person you pull over could have a gun, even someone looks even slightly suspicious it's understandable that they would shoot first ask questions later, as they are scared for their own life. Of course this doesn't make it any nicer for the average civilian who calls the cops who then arrive and shoot them due to a misunderstanding, but at least they aren't monsters running around shooting innocents for fun or anything.
 

Lacius

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I don't think you fully understand my argument and you also took my argument out of context, but oh well. I'm done replying to you at least in this thread as you don't seem to get my whole argument and like I said earlier, this pissing match between us and others is just ridiculous.
I understand your argument. I disagree with it because we have data with regard to what happens when guns are merely restricted: The number of violent deaths decreases. The idea that something shouldn't be illegal because some people are just going to get that thing anyway is irrelevant to the argument when the illegality is still going to bring down the overall number of deaths and increase the overall wellness of people. Your argument doesn't work any better on guns than it would on bombs.
 

rileysrjay

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One more comment about guns, health care, minimum wage, or pissing on the u.s. or another country and I'm going to report this thread. I urge others with enough decency to join me also because this whole thread has brought out the worst in some of us IMO.
 

Lacius

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One more comment about guns, health care, minimum wage, or pissing on the u.s. or another country and I'm going to report this thread. I urge others with enough decency to join me also because this whole thread has brought out the worst in some of us IMO.
I haven't read most of the posts in this thread, but it was bound to become a conversation about the United States' flaws and merits, and I feel the posts I've read have been largely civil.
 

rileysrjay

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I haven't read most of the posts in this thread, but it was bound to become a conversation about the United States' flaws and merits, and I feel the posts I've read have been largely civil.
While Most of the later posts here have been civil and I respect your opinions and others such as @Quantumcat and @grossaffe , a lot of the earlier posts and even a couple of recent posts have basically said the U.S. in particular or country x sucks for no good reason whatsoever. Plus the whole point of this thread originally was to help @Saiyan Lusitano and others find an easy way into the U.S. legally and give him info about laws in various states and different places to consider moving to. Pointing out the flaws of our nation is also a good idea in this thread, but arguing over them continuously for multiple pages instead of just pointing them out and giving different views on them briefly wasn't too good of an idea IMO. If you and others want me to I could create a new thread for us to argue in over the earlier mentioned issues.
 
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TotalInsanity4

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Hes only throwing out illegals so as long as you have everything you need you're fine
I'd like to remind you of those tense few days where legal, green card holding citizens who temporarily left the country were denied access to return

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Depending on where you live the minimum wage can probably support 6 people and it's supposed to support 3 to 4 so it's not very low
Where are you referring to? Here it's $7.25 an hour and after taxes + rent that's barely enough for two
 

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