do you think Trump sealed his own fate?

[WeedZ]

Political debates have gotten so far left vs right that people don't follow logic anymore.

"I agree with how conservatives are handling current immigration policy, but don't tell me how wrong it is because it was the liberals that put the policy in place"

Fuckin' what?

 

[Xzi]

What does "immigration reform" entail to you, Xzi? What reforms would be desirable? What would you concede in order to get those reforms?

The most obvious thing our immigration system is missing is a path to citizenship for those who contribute to society. I'm not sure there really needs to be a lot of concessions to accomplish this, because it's a net financial gain for the government which collects taxes from migrant labor but doesn't afford them any public benefits. This could remain the standard for a probationary period of 5-10 years, whatever is deemed a reasonable amount of time without committing a crime, and then individuals could take a citizenship test.

Unfortunately this is very unlikely to happen. I believe GWB even suggested something similar, which was quickly struck down by GOP leadership. Businesses (including Trump's) are addicted to cheap migrant labor, and they know it's easy to keep workers in line by threat of deportation. There's simply no financial benefit for businesses to treat these workers with basic human decency, so they don't.

Political debates have gotten so far left vs right that people don't follow logic anymore.

"I agree with how conservatives are handling current immigration policy, but don't tell me how wrong it is because it was the liberals that put the policy in place"

Fuckin' what?

Trump has been blaming Democrats for anything and everything he's done which can be viewed in a negative light. So it's not at all surprising to see his supporters parrot this deflection tactic. This makes having a discussion with modern Republicans really hard, and it makes having an honest discussion impossible. They control all three branches of government, yet I'm supposed to believe they're powerless against the "Deep State," which also happens to be mostly Trump appointees.

Gaslight
Obstruct
Project

 

[Hanafuda]

The most obvious thing our immigration system is missing is a path to citizenship for those who contribute to society. I'm not sure there really needs to be a lot of concessions to accomplish this, because it's a net financial gain for the government which collects taxes from migrant labor but doesn't afford them any public benefits. This could remain the standard for a probationary period of 5-10 years, whatever is deemed a reasonable amount of time without committing a crime, and then individuals could take a citizenship test.

Unfortunately this is very unlikely to happen. I believe GWB even suggested something similar, which was quickly struck down by GOP leadership. Businesses (including Trump's) are addicted to cheap migrant labor, and they know it's easy to keep workers in line by threat of deportation. There's simply no financial benefit for businesses to treat these workers with basic human decency, so they don't.

And would you support funding and building the border wall and increased border patrol security to man it, if that path to citizenship plan were adopted? Because amnesty without a secure border would just worsen the situation dramatically. And what of those who do not avail themselves of the path to citizenship, or fuck it up with a criminal conviction? Are there any you would say don't qualify for the program from the start, i.e. convicted felons, confirmed gang members?

You said GWB suggested something similar. So did Trump, back in January. It was shot down as unacceptable by both sides.

I do think something will happen to address the issue, at least I hope so. But it can't just be a blanket amnesty without a secured border.

 

[Xzi]

And would you support funding and building the border wall and increased border patrol security to man it, if that path to citizenship plan were adopted? Because amnesty without a secure border would just worsen the situation dramatically. And what of those who do not avail themselves of the path to citizenship, or fuck it up with a criminal conviction? Are there any you would say don't qualify for the program from the start, i.e. convicted felons, confirmed gang members?

A border wall is a waste of taxpayer money, plain and simple. It wouldn't stop illegal immigration, and it would just slowly crumble/be torn down over a decade or so. Not to mention it would require the use of Eminent Domain to seize a lot of US citizens' property in order to complete. I don't have an issue with securing the border through more effective, efficient means though.

Of course convicted criminals would be denied a path to citizenship, and deported as normal if they were caught. Should probably depend on the severity of the conviction though, nobody should be denied for jaywalking. Under the current system, it's just assumed that they're all criminals, including asylum seekers.

You said GWB suggested something similar. So did Trump, back in January. It was shot down as unacceptable by both sides.

I'd have to review Trump's proposal, assuming this wasn't just something he mentioned once and never intended to move on. Happens often with Trump, like when he promised universal healthcare.

I do think something will happen to address the issue, at least I hope so. But it can't just be a blanket amnesty without a secured border.

The border "crisis" is largely manufactured as political red meat for the Republican base. Since around 2008 we've had more net immigration leaving America for Mexico than coming in. So while I have no issue with doing a better job of securing the border, I don't see this as the emergency situation a lot of the right wing sees it as.

There are no perfect statistics when it comes to illegal immigration — it’s inherently impossible to track accurately. But U.S. and Mexican government data analyzed by the Pew Research Center shows the immigration trend reversed in the last decade.

The estimated number of Mexicans in the United States illegally rose steadily for many years, from 2.9 million in 1995 to a peak of 6.9 million in 2007. But the number began dropping in 2008 and has fallen more since, reaching 5.8 million in 2014, the latest year for which Pew analyzed data.

According to Pew, key factors in the decline are the Great Recession, which meant U.S. job losses in construction and other sectors where Mexican immigrants are likely to work; a rising number of deportations; and increasing numbers of U.S. Border Patrol agents.

The change in migration patterns is also reflected in the number of apprehensions on the Mexican border by the U.S. Border Patrol. About 191,000 Mexicans were apprehended along the southern border in the 2016 fiscal year. At the peak of Mexican immigration in 2007, the Border Patrol apprehended 809,000 Mexicans.

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin...periencing-net-outflow-illegal-undocumented-/

 

[brickmii82]

I find it funny that Reagan is often used as an example of shining effective GOP governance yet he granted amnesty for how many immigrants? Being serious, idk the number but it was a bigly number. The DNC isn’t really that much better though. President Obama could've handled this Immigration reform early in his presidency but chose other legislation as a priority which did not include jailing all of the corrupt bankers and investment brokers that robbed taxpayers for trillions. And while Russians swayed the election, with the stonewalling of Bernie, the DNC in fact, rigged the election. He should’ve won the nomination. #Bernieorbust

 

[Xzi]

President Obama could've handled this Immigration reform early in his presidency

Maybe, but forcing anything through with the support of only Democrats would've resulted in repeal at some point anyway. Republicans had started completely stonewalling even their own party on this issue well before Obama's presidency. It's part of the Southern Strategy.