Hacking Homebrew To people still running an emuNAND on your 3DS, what is your reasoning

[AmandaRose]

I have a Japanese emunand on my euro 3ds that can be booted by holding the L button when switching the 3ds on.

The only reason I have it is because the 3 Sega 3D Fukkoku Ākaibusu games don't work right on a euro system even when using luma locale patcher. The games will boot and play fine but will error out when trying to save. So the only solution was to use a Jap emunand.

 

[DinohScene]

Only had EmuNAND once in the early MSET days? the DS exploit one.
Swapped to SysNAND cause I couldn't care less quickly after.

 

[Jayro]

Well, you can't brick an emuNAND, but if it borks you can just re-write your last backup to fix it. I know you can do the same for sysNAND too, but emuNAND is less risky I'd say. That being said though, I don't even use an emuNAND. sysNAND is just easier overall.

 

[DeadSkullzJr]

A reason i have not seen mentioned here for having emuNAND (i think this name is stupid because nothing is emulated but redirected) is reducing wear on the internal eMMC in your 2/3DS. I don't use it but i feel like this could be a pro argument for someone. Replacing the eMMC is possible but a pain. At some point it will die just like any flash based storage media.

I actually planned to throw in that reason, but my post was more catered to the common things said from others, and not things I've personally thought about regarding the matter. I have considered this personally, which is one of my personal reasons for using EmuNAND.

Post automatically merged: Dec 11, 2022

I kinda get what you were trying to say here, but I wouldn't say the use of an emuNAND is like virtualization at all. Virtualization implies a host and guest OS are running at the same time, which isn't the case here. A better comparison would be dual booting, which is basically what using an emuNAND is.

There's plenty of people who do more than run games on their console. However, this comment doesn't address the fact that most homebrew and games do not directly touch critical parts of the NAND, so using sysNAND or emuNAND makes no difference in terms of safety whatsoever.

I am aware of various examples of malware for the 3DS, however I'm not aware of any that intentionally bricked consoles. The 2 main pieces of malware I can think of were both for data exfiltration, those being UnbanMii 2.0 (though this was unintentional), and something that was specially targeted at Sono to steal their Discord token from DiscordCTR. The only other possibile thing I can think of is Gateway bricking consoles when using cloned versions of their flashcarts, but if you have links to proper examples, I'd be interested in seeing them. Additionally, I don't even think homebrew that runs in the main 3DS OS is even capable of fully erasing the NAND, as Luma3DS has protections that prevent any write operations to the FIRM partitions, meaning that if something does try to brick, you'll always be able to boot into GodMode9 to restore your NAND/perform a ctrtransfer without the need of additional hardware.

This is definitely a fair point, nobody wants to spend extra money on stuff that isn't strictly necessary. But I feel like if you're the type of user/developer that messes with their NAND in unconventional ways, even if you are using an emuNAND, not having a working ntrboot cart just in case is just plain dumb (after all, what's stopping any potential application being incompatible with emuNANDs and somehow accidentally corrupting sysNAND, or, as you said, one that intentionally tries messing with sysNAND, even when booted through emuNAND.

Actually regarding TWL_FIRM, there is an unmerged pull request on the Luma3DS GitHub that somewhat negates the need for sysNAND for DSi software. While this is definitely a personal preference, I feel that the need for AGB_FIRM to be fixed simply isn't necessary due to the release of open_agb_firm.

I probably should've worded my questioning a bit better. I was more or less trying to say that using an emuNAND for pretty much any purpose just seems like unnecessary added complexity. I still fail to see any real advantage other than simply not wanting to change how things are done.

Responses are numbers according to your comment order.

1. The example I used as a comparison wasn't meant in that literal sense, it was just to point out that people can claim the same idea that nobody needs to virtualize anything when they can do whatever on their bare metal OS already. It's the point of, it exists, it has its use cases, therefore not useless in general, just useless to those who prefer NOT to use it.

2. While a strong point, thing is I never specified what I do in detail, I was just stating I test around with such systems in regards to EmuNAND, that could mean anything ranging from the use of homebrew applications to directly interacting with the firmware contents themselves, which yes I do both.

3. Unfortunately I am unable to find the thread regarding one of the brick plug-ins (staff may have removed it, I'll search again later today). As for the other brick situation that happened, that was never even made known on this platform, that one happened in Discord (I have screenshots showing off the brick happening on my dummy test unit, no worries I recovered from the brick, pure testing so I knew what I was doing), it not only wiped the NAND but it formatted the SD card too.

4. I've recommended a lot of people to have an NTRboothax compatible flash device just to have a solid method for not only custom firmware, but a failsafe for brick situations. Most of the time I've done that though I get the short end of the stick.

5. I am of the mindset that regardless of how I prefer running my software, in this case EmuNAND, it needs to be fully functional in general, there's no telling whether or not others in the future will use aspects of the parts that are broken in EmuNAND in the future, myself for example, I don't limit myself to just one method to achieve these things, I mess with all methods to learn and figure out ways of potentially making things better what what is already there.

6. Got nothing for this since this is about how you feel about it.

 

[ber71]

A reason i have not seen mentioned here for having emuNAND (i think this name is stupid because nothing is emulated but redirected) is reducing wear on the internal eMMC in your 2/3DS. I don't use it but i feel like this could be a pro argument for someone. Replacing the eMMC is possible but a pain. At some point it will die just like any flash based storage media.

Concerned about this, too.
I'd buy that point for the dsi which has a very poor quality flash storage, but i hope the 3ds has a better nand. Most sdcard storage should have way less write cycles.
I'm a bit worried about long-term storage. The physical cells discharge over time. Perhaps a simple nand rewrite could be benefical, gm9 has a option for this.

 

[ghjfdtg]

Concerned about this, too.
I'd buy that point for the dsi which has a very poor quality flash storage, but i hope the 3ds has a better nand. Most sdcard storage should have way less write cycles.

Poor quality? The DSi uses eMMC just like the 3DS. It's just an older generation and less capacity. I have actually seen failed eMMC on 3DS consoles before but it's extremely rare. It's much more robust than SD cards.

I'm a bit worried about long-term storage. The physical cells discharge over time. Perhaps a simple nand rewrite could be benefical, gm9 has a option for this.

I would worry more about wear leveling. The 3DS OS does not use TRIM on unused space because of the encrypted partitions. But to be fair it doesn't do on SD cards either.

 

[CoolMe]

2 years ago i was having some issues with my N3DSXL crashing randomly (or no boot at all), i tried everything i could to fix it software-wise, the issue persisted. And wanted to try emunand as a last resort to confirm the probability that the mobo was defective, or not. I went with RedNand, tutorials were outdated by that point but i still managed to get it working, i set it up on PC, because the 3DS was barely functioning..
- I accidentally discovered the root of the problem when i was setting up RedNand (the sd card reader was dying), i noticed that applying a small amount of pressure around the sd card reader area, on top of the back plastic, made the the 3ds boot & function normally & freeze the moment i let go. I was grateful 'cause i just had enough at that point, and thought that the only thing that might fix it is a mobo swap. But i digress..
By that point after fixing the sd card reader (replacing it with a new one) & never having a freeze/ crash issue since. I just kept RedNand, i was still fiddling with it a bit, i just didn't remove it because it did all i wanted it to do (it was on latest fw, can play online etc.) so i still have it on that system.

 

[Reploid]

I used emunand when I was using Gateway, but ditched it comletely when switched to Luma because it offered no benefit for me anymore.

 

[The Catboy]

I used to run an emuNAND until the release of ntrboot. That was because the risk of bricking my system during testing did exist and it was best to avoid those risks. Since those risks are now next to zero, my emuNAND is long gone

 

[Dionicio3]

A reason i have not seen mentioned here for having emuNAND (i think this name is stupid because nothing is emulated but redirected) is reducing wear on the internal eMMC in your 2/3DS. I don't use it but i feel like this could be a pro argument for someone. Replacing the eMMC is possible but a pain. At some point it will die just like any flash based storage media.

This is actually a very valid point I never even thought of. Though, in my experience even shitty flash storage does last a while, and I have a feeling some other component on the 3DS will fail long before the flash storage

I have a Japanese emunand on my euro 3ds that can be booted by holding the L button when switching the 3ds on.

The only reason I have it is because the 3 Sega 3D Fukkoku Ākaibusu games don't work right on a euro system even when using luma locale patcher. The games will boot and play fine but will error out when trying to save. So the only solution was to use a Jap emunand.

This is interesting, you sure that Luma Locale Patch isn't sufficient? I did a quick search and found people, even you seemingly, had success with just locale patching

While a strong point, thing is I never specified what I do in detail, I was just stating I test around with such systems in regards to EmuNAND, that could mean anything ranging from the use of homebrew applications to directly interacting with the firmware contents themselves, which yes I do both.

That point wasn't meant to be directed at you specifically, of course if you know what you're doing, you're allowed to do it however method you choose.

I've recommended a lot of people to have an NTRboothax compatible flash device just to have a solid method for not only custom firmware, but a failsafe for brick situations. Most of the time I've done that though I get the short end of the stick.

Honestly dealing with users who are very stubborn is the reason I stopped helping users until very recently

I would worry more about wear leveling. The 3DS OS does not use TRIM on unused space because of the encrypted partitions. But to be fair it doesn't do on SD cards either

Nintendo moment™

By that I just kept RedNand, i was still fiddling with it a bit, i just didn't remove it because it did all i wanted it to do (it was on latest fw, can play online etc.) so i still have it on that system.

I'm not saying you have to, but I would highly recommend migrating to sysNAND if you ever wanna do anything regarding TWL_FIRM on that system

I used to run an emuNAND until the release of ntrboot. That was because the risk of bricking my system during testing did exist and it was best to avoid those risks. Since those risks are now next to zero, my emuNAND is long gone

Funnily enough, part of what prompted me to make this thread was reading some of the posts you made in 2018 regarding emuNAND

 

[AmandaRose]

This is actually a very valid point I never even thought of. Though, in my experience even shitty flash storage does last a while, and I have a feeling some other component on the 3DS will fail long before the flash storage

This is interesting, you sure that Luma Locale Patch isn't sufficient? I did a quick search and found people, even you seemingly, had success with just locale patching

That point wasn't meant to be directed at you specifically, of course if you know what you're doing, you're allowed to do it however method you choose.

Honestly dealing with users who are very stubborn is the reason I stopped helping users until very recently

Nintendo moment™

I'm not saying you have to, but I would highly recommend migrating to sysNAND if you ever wanna do anything regarding TWL_FIRM on that system

Funnily enough, part of what prompted me to make this thread was reading some of the posts you made in 2018 regarding emuNAND

Yep like I said luma Locale patcher works but some games in the 3 collections error out when saving something I only descovered after my post in the other thread.

 

[Dionicio3]

Yep like I said luma Locale patcher works but some games in the 3 collections error out when saving something I only descovered after my post in the other thread.

Weird, have you ever submitted a bug report to the Luma3DS team? I feel like this is something they should try to fix, as one of the main "advertised" features is the fact anything from any region should work.

 

[AmandaRose]

Weird, have you ever submitted a bug report to the Luma3DS team? I feel like this is something they should try to fix, as one of the main "advertised" features is the fact anything from any region should work.

Great idea I never thought of that. Will need to put the 3 collections back on my sysnand and go though all the games to see which ones save or don't save. I do remember because it was one of the main games I wanted to play on the collections that Power Drift was one of the games that gave the error.

Will get the list together over next few days and file the report.

Also might even be something that has already been fixed with latest luma as it was about 2 years ago that I tried them on sysnand

 

[SylverReZ]

I used to run an emuNAND until the release of ntrboot. That was because the risk of bricking my system during testing did exist and it was best to avoid those risks. Since those risks are now next to zero, my emuNAND is long gone

I did the same too, but nowadays hacking your 3DS doesn't result in so many risks unless you was using Gateway of all things.

 

[CoolMe]

I'm not saying you have to, but I would highly recommend migrating to sysNAND if you ever wanna do anything regarding TWL_FIRM on that system

Oh, i forgot to mention that i use sysnand as well on that system for some GBA VC games as well as TWilightMenu (otherwise they won't work). I have 2 separate 32ID Nintendo 3DS folders one for sysnand and the other for RedNand. I have it autoboot to rednand since it has the most stuff.
I'm not interested in using DSiWare on this 3DS, since i have a DSi XL for that.

Actually i don't think you can use TWilightMenu on emunand (or RedNand) alone without installing on sysnand too. I just know that last time when i updated it just on emunand, it gave me an error each time i launched TWilightMenu. Updating the one on sysnand fixed it.
And i know that running the one installed on emunand just redirects to the one on sysnand, because when i quit TWilightMenu or put the 3DS in sleep mode, it always takes me back to the sysnand's home menu. Same for GBA VCs.

 

[Dionicio3]

Oh, i forgot to mention that i use sysnand as well on that system for some GBA VC games as well as TWilightMenu (otherwise they won't work). I have 2 separate 32ID Nintendo 3DS folders one for sysnand and the other for RedNand. I have it autoboot to rednand since it has the most stuff.
I'm not interested in using DSiWare on this 3DS, since i have a DSi XL for that.

Actually i don't think you can use TWilightMenu on emunand (or RedNand) alone without installing on sysnand too. I just know that last time when i updated it just on emunand, it gave me an error each time i launched TWilightMenu. Updating the one on sysnand fixed it.
And i know that running the one installed on emunand just redirects to the one on sysnand, because when i quit TWilightMenu or put the 3DS in sleep mode, it always takes me back to the sysnand's home menu. Same for GBA VCs.

iirc Luma3DS's implementation of emuNAND is very good at taking you back to the correct NAND when switching between FIRMs

Post automatically merged: Dec 11, 2022

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention this earlier, but a friend DM'd me not long after I made this thread with another cool potential use case: dualbooting a retail and dev firmware. While Luma3DS does have the dev unitinfo option, some software simply won't work on the incorrect firmware. Additionally, booting into retail firmware on a dev unit with video out could be a potentially good method of recording/streaming for sites like YouTube or Twitch

 

[The Catboy]

Funnily enough, part of what prompted me to make this thread was reading some of the posts you made in 2018 regarding emuNAND

Which one? OωO

I did the same too, but nowadays hacking your 3DS doesn't result in so many risks unless you was using Gateway of all things.

At the time, I was testing risky software and other potential issues. So basically helping minimize the risks of bricks by being the one to find possible ways to brick my shit

 

[Dionicio3]

Which one? OωO

I don't wanna start up old drama (especially one I didn't participate in), but it was a few posts in the original Luma3DS thread, when they added the requirement of using boot9strap and implemented Rosalina

 

[Hayato213]

Don't have an emunand for the 3DS these days, back in the ReiNAND and 9.2.0 exploitable firmware days, firmware were kept outdated and the emunand firmware was updated.

 

[The Catboy]

I don't wanna start up old drama (especially one I didn't participate in), but it was a few posts in the original Luma3DS thread, when they added the requirement of using boot9strap and implemented Rosalina

Oh, I would prefer not to drag that up as well.