​

User migles gave me a tip about an interesting development on Steam. Valve was always relatively open-minded in terms of game mods - in fact, some of their biggest franchises like Counter Strike and Team Fortress started off as user-created mods. The Steam Workshop was Valve's way of distributing such game mods via their Steam platform and now it also allows mod creators to sell their creations online.​

​

Revenue from selling these modifications is split between Valve, the developers of the original games and the mod developers, the latter getting 25% of the proceeds.​

​

As of right now you can only sell mods for The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, but the new distribution platform shows promise to aspiring mod developers and puts the limelight on an activity that used to be relegated to the fringe of the gamingverse.​

​

Source (Steam Workshop) ​

​

​

Update: Valve removed paid mods from the Workshop. Here's a statement from an employee:

"We underestimated the differences between our previously successful revenue sharing models, and the addition of paid mods to Skyrim's workshop. We understand our own game's communities pretty well, but stepping into an established, years old modding community in Skyrim was probably not the right place to start iterating. We think this made us miss the mark pretty badly, even though we believe there's a useful feature somewhere here.
"Now that you've backed a dump truck of feedback onto our inboxes, we'll be chewing through that, but if you have any further thoughts let us know."

Source​

 

[Foxi4]

You don't seem to understand we're talking about 4 year old game that still sells only because it has incredible mod base. Bethesda already took it's cut by selling the damn game. Taking any more than that is just being greedy fucks. The best they could've taken is 5-10% especially since they didn't do anything on the game in years, hell there's a bunch of mods that are basically patches that do shit bethesda should've done itself. If anything they should be paying modders from their own wallet not take the cut. I can understand Steam taking cut being the ones who sale. But bethesda already had it's own cut biggest of them all, the game selling cut.

The problem here is that A) the mods wouldn't exist if the game didn't and B) the mods, due to their nature, require the game to operate. What you're saying is that taxis should be free because the driver already paid for the car and gas - that's not how it works. Bethesda's game is the vehicle through which the mod can be profitable, therefor Bethesda should get a cut from the sales. Whether I think 45% is a fair share or not is a completely different story - I think it's a bit much, but I'm not against the concept since, again, modders do not have to pay a licensing fee in this scenario, they only share revenue.

Why do you assume i want those games ? i accept them as a fair way of making money. However most of those games are f2p. They're like microtransaction except good. I don't like microtransactions i prefer pay full price rather than keep on paying for parts. And let's be honest some games work with that kind of setup, others dont.

I'm not entirely against microtransactions, it depends on what I'm paying for. I've been "paying extra" for content for years, even before digital distribution. I guess I'm a sucker for expansion packs and the like. What I'm not willing to pay for are "extra lives" in Candy Crush-like games, that's just ridiculous. If the microtransaction gives me access to new and exciting content though, well, that's a whole different story. I generally like meaningful DLC.

I'd say it's quite correct, linux is a whole eco system and what linus torvalds did is a damn small part of it. He also started whole thing free, bethesda took cut which was price of the game, however assumption was you don't pay for the damn mods. That's why people bought it. Bethesda didn't do anything for skyrim for years now they want extra cut because bunch of dedicated people kept the game alive ? That's just fucking hilarious and cheap. If they wanted to make paid mods they should've implemented it from the begining.

Your argument would hold water if only there weren't commercially sold Linux distributions, which there are. Red Hat, anyone? Again, mods take advantage of modified Bethesda content, it's only fair to expect Bethesda to want in on some of the proceeds.

Edit: once again, i ask. Did you actually mod skyrim ? because what i see is same uninformed thinking as the guys who tried to implement the feature. Maybe you should try to do it.

I don't see how this is in any way relevant to the conversation, I'm talking about modding video games in general. You can't gloss over the fact that mods modify the original game and use it in order to operate - it's in the name, they're called "mods".

Go to skyrimnexus download a hundred of mods, if you don't know which i recommend gopher's videos on youtube. Once you spent a couple of days understanding the ecosystem of the whole thing you'll realize just what a bad idea it was.

I'm not one for modding games, actually. In fact, I don't play a lot of games on PC anymore. That being said, I can absolutely see the benefit of comercially sold modifications.

The whole gaben worship started as a joke, but bunch of people took it seriously and the joke created an army of blind religious fanbois. It's seriously scary when you think about it.

Gaben is our shield. ;O; /s

 

[ShonenJump]

Hahahaha paid mods gone. It was a stupid idea to begin with

 

[Ashtonx]

The problem here is that A) the mods wouldn't exist if the game didn't and B) the mods, due to their nature, require the game to operate. What you're saying is that taxis should be free because the driver already paid for the car and gas - that's not how it works. Bethesda's game is the vehicle through which the mod can be profitable, therefor Bethesda should get a cut from the sales. Whether I think 45% is a fair share or not is a completely different story - I think it's a bit much, but I'm not against the concept since, again, modders do not have to pay a licensing fee in this scenario, they only share revenue.

So in your opinion taxi drivers should pay car manufacturers a cut because they drive their cars ?

I'm not entirely against microtransactions, it depends on what I'm paying for. I've been "paying extra" for content for years, even before digital distribution. I guess I'm a sucker for expansion packs and the like. What I'm not willing to pay for are "extra lives" in Candy Crush-like games, that's just ridiculous. If the microtransaction gives me access to new and exciting content though, well, that's a whole different story. I generally like meaningful DLC.

You see this is a problem, the system implemented took stuff that was already there for free, and decided to take it away from being free to being sold. People did start taking off their free mods, either because they wanted to start selling them, or because they didn't want to see people steal and sell their mods, you see valve is crappy when it comes to cleaning their shit up.

Your argument would hold water if only there weren't commercially sold Linux distributions, which there are. Red Hat, anyone? Again, mods take advantage of modified Bethesda content, it's only fair to expect Bethesda to want in on some of the proceeds.

Well you see, thing is, red had didn't break the ecosystem of linux, they found a way to make money without breaking whole thing down.

Edit: once again, i ask. Did you actually mod skyrim ? because what i see is same uninformed thinking as the guys who tried to implement the feature. Maybe you should try to do it.

It's actually very relevant to the situation. The whole skyrim community is a living ecosystem, that suddenly got nuked by valve and bethesda. It's not something as simple as resking, mods depending on mod who depend on other mods, take one away and whole shit breaks down. And this is exactly what valve and bethesda did here.

I'm not one for modding games, actually. In fact, I don't play a lot of games on PC anymore. That being said, I can absolutely see the benefit of comercially sold modifications.

So let me get this straight, you don't mod, you don't understand modding community and don't have experience with it. You don't have any experience because you don't like it. Yet you act like you know better and you have the higher moral ground here ?
Ok...



Once again. I'm not against paid mods. Hell i'm all for it as a way to make money of f2p games. If any game is gonna have microtransactions i want it to be those mods because that's good for community.
However I'm against valve and bethesda making a landgrab and destroying a living ecosystem.

If bethesda wants paid mods. Sure i'm cool with it, let them do it in TES 6 or F4 and see how it goes. I dunno if I'm gonna buy the game with such setting. But i'm not gonna protest it, criticize it or protest it. Because new game will be a new ecosystem that won't get destroyed by such actions.

However in this case people are right.
And honestly if you charge people for one thing you don't go remove some of the features and resell it. When people bought skyrim they saw the whole modding scene as integral part of the deal, part that was now destroyed and made into milking machine.

 

[Foxi4]

So in your opinion taxi drivers should pay car manufacturers a cut because they drive their cars ?

If they leased the cars from the manufacturers, yes, absolutely. Fortunately they don't have to do that since they own their own cars, however they still have to split their profits with their taxi companies that drive their discoverability and hook them up with passengers, these are the taxi driver's "Valve", so to speak. The difference between a video game and a car is that a car is a physical good that you own wheras a video game is not - you don't own a video game, ever. You have a license to use a copy of a video game, but you don't own the game itself - the developer does. I know it's something that's hard to grasp since you have this weird plastic disc with a game on it and you think you own it, but really, you don't - you own a piece of plastic that entitles you to use one copy of the game, not the game itself.

You see this is a problem, the system implemented took stuff that was already there for free, and decided to take it away from being free to being sold. People did start taking off their free mods, either because they wanted to start selling them, or because they didn't want to see people steal and sell their mods, you see valve is crappy when it comes to cleaning their shit up.

Completely incorrect. Valve didn't make mods commercial overnight themselves, the modders were given the option to submit their mods as commercial which is exactly what they did out of their own volition. Valve's downfall was not making background checks on the mods to verify that they're original content made by the people who submitted them.

Well you see, thing is, red had didn't break the ecosystem of linux, they found a way to make money without breaking whole thing down.

Did commercial mods break the modding ecosystem? I don't remember seeing some cataclysmic event that made 100% of Skyrim mods commercial overnight, there were still free mods available, and not just on Steam.

It's actually very relevant to the situation. The whole skyrim community is a living ecosystem, that suddenly got nuked by valve and bethesda. It's not something as simple as resking, mods depending on mod who depend on other mods, take one away and whole shit breaks down. And this is exactly what valve and bethesda did here.

It got nuked and yet here we are and so are the mods. I'd argue that "nothing" happened, actually.

So let me get this straight, you don't mod, you don't understand modding community and don't have experience with it. You don't have any experience because you don't like it. Yet you act like you know better and you have the higher moral ground here ? Ok...

Do I have to drink poison to know that it's not good for me? Or do I just have to be aware of that fact? I think it's the latter. Me not fancying mods doesn't automatically mean that my opinion is irrelevant, my preferences in gaming do not invalidate my points. Besides, I used to use mods when I was much younger, particularly Counter Strike 1.6 ones, I simply lost interest in using them.

Once again. I'm not against paid mods. Hell i'm all for it as a way to make money of f2p games. If any game is gonna have microtransactions i want it to be those mods because that's good for community. However I'm against valve and bethesda making a landgrab and destroying a living ecosystem.

Destroying the ecosystem by providing legal means to sell mods? You just said you're not against them and yet you are? Which one is it? All they did was providing modders with an option, I have to underline this, an option to monetize their mods and yet they've "destroyed an ecosystem"? Someone's overdramatizing here.

If bethesda wants paid mods. Sure i'm cool with it, let them do it in TES 6 or F4 and see how it goes. I dunno if'm gonna buy the game with such setting. But i'm not gonna protest it, criticize it or protest it. Because new game will be a new ecosystem that won't get destroyed by such actions.

I have no idea what your point is, it doesn't matter which game gets modded, a system is a system - either it's present or it isn't. If you think Bethesda should release an update to Skyrim that would standardize mods as well as their own tools to make them then I'm all for - if they want to benefit from modding then they should make a contribution towards that goal, I'm down with that line of logic.

 

[Ashtonx]

If they leased the cars from the manufacturers, yes, absolutely. The difference between a video game and a car is that a car is a physical good that you own wheras a video game is not - you don't own a video game, ever. You have a license to use a copy of a video game, but you don't own the game itself - the developer does. I know it's something that's hard to grasp since you have this weird plastic disc with a game on it and you think you own it, but really, you don't - you own a piece of plastic that entitles you to use one copy of the game, not the game itself.

And that is problem with copyright laws. Because they're not leasing games, they're selling them. It's a scam ;P

Did commercial mods break the modding ecosystem? I don't remember seeing some cataclysmic event that made 100% of Skyrim mods commercial overnight, there were still free mods available, and not just on Steam.

Few hundreds of mods were taken down from skyrimnexus overnight.

It got nuked and yet here we are and so are the mods. I'd argue that "nothing" happened, actually.

Actually few people quit modding scene during fallout, few people who did some seriously great shit for the scene. The scene got divided and it'll take a while for it to recover.

Do I have to drink poison to know that it's not good for me? Or do I just have to be aware of that fact? I think it's the latter. Me not fancying mods doesn't automatically mean that my opinion is irrelevant, my preferences in gaming do not invalidate my points. Besides, I used to use mods when I was much younger, particularly Counter Strike 1.6 ones, I simply lost interest in using them.

I'm sorry, i'm sure you're a specialist in every field. It doesn't matter if you have any experience what matter is you didn't drink the poison cup.
also cs was a half life mod itself. just btw.

Destroying the ecosystem by providing legal means to sell mods? You just said you're not against them and yet you are? Which one is it? All they did was providing modders with an option, I have to underline this, an option to monetize their mods and yet they've"destroyed an ecosystem"? Someone's overdramatizing here.

I recommend elementary biology lessons. small changes in ecosystem can obliterate whole thing.
This is what steam did.

Actually chesko is a good example, he used a free animation in his mod without asking an author. after author learned about it he wanted it to pull out. And that was a new mod, made for sale. Imagine skyui being paid only, hundreds if not thousands of mods dependant on it suddenly become broken. It'd be even worse if skse decided they want to be paid for the mod.

I have no idea what your point is, it doesn't matter which game gets modded, a system is a system - either it's present or it isn't. If you think Bethesda should release an update to Skyrim that would standardize mods as well as their own tools to make them then I'm all for - if they want to benefit from modding then they should make a contribution towards that goal, I'm down with that line of logic.

You see that's what im trying to say. you have no idea.

Imagine someone decides to take a way some part of your pc, minor part some transistor, what happens ? whole shit breaks down. This is the damn problem. You cant treat skyrim mods as individual things they're mostly codependant on each other.

 

[Foxi4]

And that is problem with copyright laws. Because they're not leasing games, they're selling them. It's a scam ;P

It applies to all software - you don't "own" any software. Even your own OS. What you own are licenses.

Few hundreds of mods were taken down from skyrimnexus overnight.

Valve isn't in charge of Skyrim Nexus.

Actually few people quit modding scene during fallout, few people who did some seriously great shit for the scene. The scene got divided and it'll take a while for it to recover.

Their personal choice.

I'm sorry, i'm sure you're a specialist in every field. It doesn't matter if you have any experience what matter is you didn't drink the poison cup. also cs was a half life mod itself. just btw.

Another reason why commercial mods are great - it started off as a mod of Half-Life, Valve picked it up, financed it and it grew into a world-wide phenomenon and its own franchise. The same applies to Team Fortress which actually started off as a mod of Quake.

I recommend elementary biology lessons. small changes in ecosystem can obliterate whole thing. This is what steam did.

Valve is not responsible for (poor) decisions of modders, they're in charge of Steam, not people's lives.

Actually chesko is a good example, he used a free animation in his mod without asking an author. after author learned about it he wanted it to pull out. And that was a new mod, made for sale. Imagine skyui being paid only, hundreds if not thousands of mods dependant on it suddenly become broken. It'd be even worse if skse decided they want to be paid for the mod.

Monetization of mods is not compulsory, it's optional. Once again I have to point out that Valve made a mistake by not background checking the mods before green lighting monetization.

You see that's what im trying to say. you have no idea.

I agreed with you on that point, Bethesda should be a part of the system, the fact that I disagree with your point of view doesn't mean that I disagree with all of your arguments, some are valid. If Bethesda wants a cut, they should work for it by stimulating the modding community with tools, tutorials, a modding environment and whatnot. Valve is actually pretty good at that, they welcome mods in their own games since they know the possible advantages, some of their franchises were born from mods after all, like the previously mentioned CS and TF.

Imagine someone decides to take a way some part of your pc, minor part some transistor, what happens ? whole shit breaks down. This is the damn problem. You cant treat skyrim mods as individual things they're mostly codependant on each other.

Nothing was taken away, an option was presented, mods took it away from that point. Any change destabilizes the environment for a brief period before it normalizes once more. Unlike "transistors", social environments are organic and adapt to changes.

 

[Ashtonx]

Valve isn't in charge of Skyrim Nexus.

I'm sure kim jong un doesn't personally execute political prisoners too.

Another reason why commercial mods are great - it started off as a mod of Half-Life, Valve picked it up, financed it and it grew into a world-wide phenomenon and its own franchise. The same applies to Team Fortress which actually started off as a mod of Quake.

Thing is, people who had cs weren't required to suddenly buy cs, the mod wasn't left alone, at least until over 1.6. Whole thing still lived. Also the mods you said you were doing were actually made for half life, they ran on cs since it had half life engine. So there were no mods that suddenly became unplayable.

Valve is not responsible for (poor) decisions of modders, they're in charge of Steam, not people's lives.

So if someone decides to start corrupting people offering them cash he's not responsible.

Monetization of mods is not compulsory, it's optional. Once again I have to point out that Valve made a mistake by not background checking the mods before green lighting monetization.

But humans are humans and they are weak, they're bound to jump on free cash without thinking about consequences. Valve is responsible for creating this very situation without thinking about consequences.

I agreed with you on that point, Bethesda should be a part of the system, the fact that I disagree with your point of view doesn't mean that I disagree with all of your arguments, some are valid. If Bethesda wants a cut, they should work for it by stimulating the modding community with tools, tutorials, a modding environment and whatnot. Valve is actually pretty good at that, they welcome mods in their own games since they know the possible advantages, some of their franchises were born from mods after all, like the previously mentioned CS and TF.

Actually in my opinion bethesda fucked up much more than valve. I can understand how valve would make a mistake thinking they'd pull it off. They understood their games, community and pullet it off. What they didn't realize is just how much different skyrim scene is, how much shit is codependant on each other. And this is where bethesda should've stepped in. They didn't they just thought extra cash for milking, showing just how little they care about modding community or understand it. They can all defend themselves about being anti drm, or modding friendly but the fact they didn't foresee consequnces shows how little they care about it. They only cared about extra money.

Nothing was taken away, an option was presented, mods took it away from that point. Any change destabilizes the environment for a brief period before it normalizes once more. Unlike "transistors", social environments are organic and adapt to changes.​

​

K i dunno how to simplify it more.​

It was there, shit worked. Came valve shit got taken away, shit stopped working.​

See the thing is, the game is already on it's deathbed, it wouldn't recover, people would just drop it its 4 years old single player rpg.​

Besides, just cause humans would survive nuclear apocalypse doesn't mean you should do it.​

​

​

edit: a video from one of the modders who makes shitloads of mod reviews instructionals etc about the end and pointing out pretty much same shit i do.​

​

​

 

[FAST6191]

Wow... and they say I have a tendency towards the hyperbolic.

Corrupting people with cash in a new market... scary.

 

[GreenZeldaCap]

The second post makes some good points. But that's the worst case scenario. This could serve as an incentive for devs to work together and be interdependent on each other since there will be a huge incentive now.

 

[migles]

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-32493895

GOOD NEWS EVERYONE. valve shutted down paid mod system!

 

[FAST6191]

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-32493895

GOOD NEWS EVERYONE. valve shutted down paid mode system!

Is it good news? Personally I think it is very bad news.

 

[migles]

Is it good news? Personally I think it is very bad news.

i personally think this is good.. for the reasons i already mentioned.
but i understand your point.
however i would love if they tried a donate system...
and i think it would be really appreciated...

the current system had no moderation.. just stolen content from other websites.. but you also got your point..

 

[FAST6191]

Donations basically do not work for most things. Likewise I am opposed to handouts if I can instead purchase a product.

 

[aeros]

The problem here is that A) the mods wouldn't exist if the game didn't and B) the mods, due to their nature, require the game to operate. What you're saying is that taxis should be free because the driver already paid for the car and gas - that's not how it works. Bethesda's game is the vehicle through which the mod can be profitable, therefor Bethesda should get a cut from the sales. Whether I think 45% is a fair share or not is a completely different story - I think it's a bit much, but I'm not against the concept since, again, modders do not have to pay a licensing fee in this scenario, they only share revenue.

I dont think this is the right analogy here
it's more like buying/ renting a house and every time you want to decorate it you have to pay to real estate company again
What you are saying is with no house for you to decorate you wont be able to decorate anything therefore you should pay up

 

[chartube12]

Do you know how I think this could of worked out? If Value worked with Publishers and Developers to get popular good mods made into official add-ons/expansion packs for the console counter-parts. Then each time someone bought the officialized versions, a healthy chunk of said profit would go to it's original creators.

 

[Argonitious]

I had no idea that they were selling mods on Steam. With that said, I think it would be best if mods remained free of price tags.

 

[FAST6191]

So a few weeks have now passed. Have any thoughts changed? I am still of the opinion that it was an interesting idea, executed poorly, saw a massive negative overreaction from where I am not sure and ultimately got pulled (in a rather odd fashion) before it had a chance to do anything that might have actually done well. Equally I have no problems with the cuts.

Some videos, I have some fairly big disagreements with several things on both of them but some interesting perspectives.

Owner of the nexus (arguably the main place that was not steam workshop to get mods for skyrim, and most previous elder scrolls games, these days), one of the bigger modders have a conversation on the matter