Gaming Should Big N fear Project Natal

[Commadore64]

Dreamcast had motion controls on fishing Rod before Wii if you think about it
Light gun was first introduced on Magnavox Odyssey so "Device in hand interacting with screen" is not a Nintendo 1st.
Nintendo Wii was fist to have a DVD player that doesnt play dvd movies...

Nintendo took over when Atari died...their name is synonymous with video games....
So is Ataris name still just to a lesser extent.

Sony was 1st popular company to utilize CD's as media
Microsoft was first to network in with the home comptuer to play media from them
*I am not sure if this is 100% true just seemed to work automatically for me and havent seen anotehr console do that. I mena out of the box, not a hack or a trick. So this could be wrong...dont know

But hey - Xerox (PARC) invented the mouse, networking, email and word processing 1st... you see what happened there today. Its not who does it first but who exploits it best.

 

[CockroachMan]

The PC Engine and the SEGA CD used CDs before the PSX.. and yeah.. Microsoft introduced a lot of stuff for networking, but that was given since they had a lot of history with PCs, they were smart enough to apply that knowledge on consoles.

But gameplay wise, Nintendo created most of the standards that we have today.

And yeah.. you're right, being the first doesn't mean being the best, Xerox is a good example. But till now, Nintendo has been using very well what they created.. let's wait and see how Sony and Microsoft can handle Nintendo's creation.

 

[solcott]

Project Natal, moar liek BAH 2.0, amirite?

 

[Commadore64]

Competition is good for everyone in the end....nuff said about that

Even if Sony and/or Microsoft came out with 20 blockbuster games and holographic projectors (obviosuly I am joking) it wouldnt knock Nintendo out cold. They have a massive base install and not everyone can junk a console and their investments in it to jump ship.

But Microsoft is the youngest of the 3 players. I am sure they see whats happening and study the impact. Heck, they can even study the competitions historys on what makes them good at one point or flop at another.
*I know - I hear RROD being typed as I write this

Take cell phones... now there are zillion cell phone that do everything but Apple, take ipod and cell phone and boom - iphone. Not everyone likes iphone but it is a recognized name and people know what it is. Now other phones have similar capabilities of the iphone and exceed in lots of areas that iphone cant. Iphone innovative? yes... best in cell phone technology debatebly no

One could say the Wii is the iphone of consoles using my example. But because they came out with a rumble pack first doesnt mean a cool ass video game pistol with kickback is a rip off of the rumble pack. It is repacked in something else that is different.
*if you say it is a rip off then any color video game on a home console is a rip off of Atari 2600 combat - or Fairchild or Magnavox or...you got the point

Sony introduces 1st DVD in PS2 and Blu-Ray in PS3 - does Wii/360 rip off Sony because they did it first? No... Is a DVD (and probably soon blu-Ray) being in a Next Gen system mean it is a ripoff? No, it's a standard. Does anyone give credit to Sony for being first? Nah... historically they are but its evolution. Like the first guy to build a boat - someone must have but who cares, its a standard vehicle now.

Motion is the next level of controllers. I dont believe its a ripoff. HiDef is the next level of TV. When the Wii2 comes out and has hi-def, do you think everyone is going to go "Sony has 1080p first...they ripped off Sony"...Nah...If it has on-demand movie download will PS3/360 fans go "oh they ripped us off"? ... no...But I bet Wii2 will have this stuff (I hope it does).

Question is...am I playing a video game system or am I interacting with my entertainment system. Thats what keeps me with my console now. Natal hopefully will introduce more cool things ... like holding a conversation with The Joker behind bars in the Arkham Asylum. "Come closer, let me put a smile on that face!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

 

[bytor]

It wouldn't surprise me if Nintendo come up with something else completely different with the Wii 2 given the DS and the Wii. VR anyone..? No need for an HDTV

 

[DSGamer64]

did you see Sony's pointing device? It was pretty good

It looks like a fucking dildo!

 

[DSGamer64]

Of course NOT!
All we know how accurate are WII controllers. They are just not perfect. Many times acccuracy is not as we expect.
Imagine, now, how many false recognitions will occur with this piece of software recognition in contrast to by far more accurate WII hardware recognition.

How easy is for a software to make good calculations for somebody's body parts and how easy is for a software to read the position of the WII controllers which are in the position You want?
Yes, the second is much more easier and acccurate.

The issue with the Wiimote that I have is the range on it sucks, if you are too close it doesn't work and if you are too far then objects obstruct the sensor bar. Apparently the wireless sensor bar has larger range though and is more responsive, the default one that comes with the Wii rarely works when I point the controller at the screen when I am at least 6 feet from the TV and it is in the position above the TV where the settings are set to. Playing a game like Metroid Prime 3 is a pain in the ass because of the inaccuracies of the sensor system which is part of the problem I have with it. Now if the 3rd party sensor bars are better and respond to the controllers easier then there wouldn't be a problem, but I think the one that comes with the console sucks to be honest.

 

[slicknixon]

The thing that i don't get is why more people aren't seeing natal for what it really is, a sham.
I don't understand why people don't realize that it is nothing more than an attempt at press attention to make Microsoft look like they have great ideas like Nintendo. For example, someone who was going to buy a Wii might buy a 360 instead because of this great new "innovation" that is coming. In reality, there is no innovation when the technology isn't even close yet. Not to mention there are absolutely no games planned nor are there any real details on how it's going to actually work. Why? BECAUSE IT'S JUST AN IDEA. They don't even fucking know if it's going to work!!!!! If you bought into any of the hype behind this you are just as fucking retarded as the idiots who planned this sham to "win" E3

 

[FAST6191]

My opinion:
I am glad to see things moving in this direction, hopefully it also means we will see some decent A.I. soon.
As for the matter at hand until I see things more developed I am not inclined to say much but I will say this. Ever seen a "tour" of the places that do motion capture? Their rendering rigs/farms can cost millions and many of their sensors/cameras are around the price of a small car and yet they still stick funny little balls all over you and like to stick you in a premade/specially designed room. Admittedly they work and do so very well (to the point they could probably afford to lose some accuracy for gaming purposes).
How then are MS and Sony going to pull that off in "consumer territory"; economics of scale and subsidies do not stretch that far.

Also how many people saw how much "wobble"/"noise" there was in the movement (Sony's bow and arrow and the other "first person" sections being good examples); if you thought the wii was bad you have seen nothing yet. With games being unpredictable by design and requiring microsecond levels of response trying to account for this is going to be hard (some TVs effectively make it into this range which is noticeable to some people (three words here: twitch based gaming))

People mentioned tactile response, the true barrier then is inertia replication which can not be done without a suit*/massive rig (think one of the fairground rides times 10) so unless someone has invented a forcefield since I started typing it is not going to happen. For an example go to an arcade and play some shooting games, I am willing to bet the one with a decently weighted/more realistically sized weapon will be the you walk away from liking "more" or at least you will be more willing to forgive faults.

Gyroscopes (if you have ever picked up a rotating device you should have the general idea) could work but being a mechanical device driven by physics power becomes an issue, wireless power (see electromagnetic induction) is not so good, batteries are also not so good, capacitors are still not at battery level leaving you with something like a fuel cell which are still far from consumer grade device let alone with the support infrastructure.

*before you ask yes I would be well up for a gyroscope suit.

So we are effectively looking at first gen motion sensing which brings up strong memories of the first generation of 3d consoles which in many ways felt like a backwards step. Good news is in 10 years things might be finally getting there.

Second note Mr Molyneux acted like his thing was about to beat the Turing test (I know the guy has a tendency to let his mouth run), I will let history speak for that one (hint: supercomputers orders of magnitude more powerful than the consoles and people using them well versed in both A.I. and psychology have tried this for decades now without even coming close).
Perhaps more to the point: how many of you have used a good piece of OCR, gesture recognition or voice recognition lately that did not require a decent amount of hand holding?
As for "need to catch" I suggest people go to a 3d cinema or even watch a horror/suspense film with a young child for a similar effect.

On the whole, better e3 than last year and probably the last few but some people need to learn to tone down the hype back to insane levels.

 

[slicknixon]

^ excellent point. the technology for an affordable consumer product just isn't available yet. not to mention the tech demo that they showed is very primitive in camera motion sensing technology. i remember seeing the exact same thing at a science museum in the late 90's. the quick movement of a certain object in relation to how far apart it is from other moving objects is how it works which is why that chick was constantly moving the whole time. i remember at the museum they had a basketball game in which the players had to be constantly moving in order for it to work. the same example can be used for that old nickelodeon show, Nick Arcade. at the end of the show they had a motion sensing environment in which the players would move through a screen and often times they would lose if they stopped before trying to grab the items they needed to win and the sensor wouldn't pick it up. I really don't see how this could be implemented into any hardcore games. they might be able to make a Wii Sports ripoff but not much beyond that until the technology to do so is actually available and i might not be totally in on current technology but it seems to me that it's either just not possible or not possible to make affordable to the consumer. like i said, it's all just press hype for Microsoft and the 360 platform and nothing more than that.

 

[Commadore64]

NATAL was showing a technical demo. Of course there are no games. But like the Wii in E3 06 (was it) only had a console and no remote. A lot "probably" was said when they said "we have a new revolutionary remote control". Back then it might have been thought "what more can they do for a remote?"

As fast6191 mentioned, unless force fields are developed to provide feedback/resistance, true experience wont happen. Unless Sony comes out with a Holodeck (joke, not a ps3 fanboy).

For NATAL 1.0 it was a cool demo I am sure many of us agree. How far it goes, time will tell. It was a cool demo. Personally I hope the PS3 and Nintendo do similar, just think what could be done when there is competition

Until the specs on NATAL are revealed as to what it if made of, can do, and its limitations, it's still unknown on what it cannot do.

Just think...if it can detect with accuracy hand gestures... playing some military game and give hand gesture silently to your squad to tighten up, be still or spread out.... that would put a whole new level on combat games. Or Mortal Kombat type games doing a freeze throw thingy like Sub Zero or variants depending on what you gestured?

Who knows? I hope something good is around the corner

 

[CockroachMan]

You know... there are a lot of people out there researching tactile response (lol, not with force fields), I remember talking about it with a professor when I was in college (I graduated 2 years ago btw), and it's not just something really complicated to do.. but the amount of data that you need to simulate that is thousands of times greater than visual data, we're still far from that.

And btw.. I don't think we'll see any huge application of motion sensing in this generation still.. most developers are still figuring out how to use the Wiimote.. I think very few will be able to do something good with Sony and MS more advanced techonologies.. we'll certainly see a lot of gimmicky and stupid stuff (like we have with the Wii already).

Can't wait to see what the next generation will bring to us..

 

[DSGamer64]

The thing that i don't get is why more people aren't seeing natal for what it really is, a sham.
I don't understand why people don't realize that it is nothing more than an attempt at press attention to make Microsoft look like they have great ideas like Nintendo. For example, someone who was going to buy a Wii might buy a 360 instead because of this great new "innovation" that is coming. In reality, there is no innovation when the technology isn't even close yet. Not to mention there are absolutely no games planned nor are there any real details on how it's going to actually work. Why? BECAUSE IT'S JUST AN IDEA. They don't even fucking know if it's going to work!!!!! If you bought into any of the hype behind this you are just as fucking retarded as the idiots who planned this sham to "win" E3

Well there are people who seem to think that this will blow away Wii controls when it won't, in fact I see that the technology is actually very limited. Without buttons, a lot of genres are going to be pointless. It would be cool for interacting with in-game environments such as doors, levers, locks/keypads and what not as well as certain types of combat like fighting would be kind of interesting but you need a decent sized space to do that in. It seems more like an afterthought novelty idea then something that is innovative, Microsoft and Sony seem to think that attempting to mimmick what Nintendo has done in order to gain a larger fanbase is rather foolish. A lot of gamers own more then one console now and a lot of older players are still die hard Nintendo fans even if a lot of their games suck, but the non gamer audience was also able to get into gaming through the Wii because of it's price point and unique games, which will never be popular on other consoles even if they copy what is on the Wii. If they wanted to do it, Natal and the PS3 motion controller would have to be mandatory in order to be completely successful in terms of game support and selling more consoles. Since they are optional pieces of hardware, getting developers to jump on their bandwagons will be next to impossible and will pretty much start alienating developers into picking and choosing exclusive games for each console. If Sony and Microsoft want to sell more units, they need to lower their prices and console games a lot need to be cheaper, they are mad overpriced compared to PC games.

 

[Commadore64]

Dont you think it is possible that with the NATAL camera, that another device could be incorporated to work with it? To detect a infrared light shot out of a pistol?
Did the Wii provide the motionplus for free? Or the fitness pad - should that have been packaged in?
You need space to play Wii bowling and baseball. I mean yes you can stand still and not move as much to do the same but isnt the motion part of Wii Sports?
Is it me or is every nintendo fan appear threatened by this? It is a good thing.

Now Wii's price point being a non-gamer and looking for one would look to like Walmart to buy one..
Cheapest Wii at walmart is $249 (as of 06/03/09)
Cheapest 360 is $199

Now selling consoles is one thing...playing them often is another. Using Neilsen ratings there is a differnent picture

So selling ice to eskimos and making a killing is one thing - the guys that sell heaters to the few have users that use them a lot more.

And developers to jump on a bandwagon to develop for it...again lets refer to motion plus...


Also Nintendo needs to stay on top..they dont have the Sony line of televisions and other consumer products for financial backing to handle a mistake and keep pressing on. Or MS with the computer empire, or even MSNBC franchise.

In my opinion most Wii games (carnival games, major minor, animal crossing, etc) insult the player intelligence. This trickles into the definition of rsrb E rating. I say MOST and that is only my opinion - not anyone elses on the thread or on GBAtemp. Some may agree, some might not

But motion sensing is not even a threat. Competition in video games makes even better games - why wouldnt it?

 

[cubin']

Is it me or is every nintendo fan appear threatened by this? It is a good thing.

I'm picking up heavily on this, it's not just you.

I'm a nintendo fan but also an xbox, PC and PS fan. I think most people understand that the motion tech on sony and xbox won't dethrone nintendo from selling the most consoles. I think they are a bit worried that it might be fun, more so than the Wii. Hard to tell at this stage.

I agree with you that competition can only be a good thing. IMO there's very few games on the Wii worth playing, even less that use the motion controls innovatively. If deeper, better games on the 360 and PS3 are made that include motion control it might kick nintendo and the 3rd party Wii developers in the pants - then they might put a bit more development into deeper, more varied games instead of wii fit 3 and the like.

 

[karoloydi]

I already see a big problem with this. A big part of the gamers have the console in their bedrooms with limited space. How is the motion sensor going to detect their movements below the waste?

 

[Vidboy10]

I mean Seriously, why are people calling this an Eyetoy rip off?

How can you even compare?

Thats like comparing an iPod to an old Sony Walkman CD player. Sure they both do similar things, but one uses completely different technology and is more advanced in every single way possible.

I'm guessing the person who are saying that didn't even watch Microsoft's conference and just read somewhere that its a Motion Sensor camera and automatically assumes its just a rip-off. Silly Sony fanboys.

 

[iznasty]

The below quote is from Johnny Chung Lee's Blog: http://procrastineering.blogspot.com/2009/...ject-natal.html

Speaking as someone who has been working in interface and sensing technology for nearly 10 years, this is an astonishing combination of hardware and software. The few times I’ve been able to show researchers the underlying components, their jaws drop with amazement... and with good reason.

The 3D sensor itself is a pretty incredible piece of equipment providing detailed 3D information about the environment similar to very expensive laser range finding systems but at a tiny fraction of the cost. Depth cameras provide you with a point cloud of the surface of objects that is fairly insensitive to various lighting conditions allowing you to do things that are simply impossible with a normal camera.


But once you have the 3D information, you then have to interpret that cloud of points as "people". This is where the researcher jaws stay dropped. The human tracking algorithms that the teams have developed are well ahead of the state of the art in computer vision in this domain. The sophistication and performance of the algorithms rival or exceed anything that I've seen in academic research, never mind a consumer product. At times, working on this project has felt like a miniature “Manhattan project” with developers and researchers from around the world coming together to make this happen.

I personally can't wait for this to be released.

 

[nightwalker]

Wii's own Natal killer

http://yourshapegame.us.ubi.com/

 

[weiff]

Ok, after having seen the production video for natal... no way. The biggest problem I see with it, no one moves THE EXACT SAME WAY. This little hardware box is going to have to have so much built into it, the size would be half of an xbox... 2 cameras are not going to motion capture that well. Plus lighting and the 'flailing' factor have to be accounted for... It is unrealistic to believe that it could be implemented and utilized so cleanly.


That said.... I believe that it has merit and could add new dimension to a system that has consistently failed to pull a decent market share since it's predecessors inception.


The video for the Wii camera seems more realistic, with the camera, balance board, wiimote motion+ combo, you could have a fairly immersive game environment.


Microsoft is too far behind and nearly out of options for this to be a "Wii killer" that some expect or hope for...