Far from clearly, before your edit it was even worse, check this for instance "Theonly things that are illegal is downloading a game you dont already own. ", that leads whoever reads it to believe it's legal to download a rom from a game you already own, which is not, it's irrelevant wheter you own it or not.
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Imo, yes. For the most reason is that they (most people, I guess) paid for the game, they can do whatever they want with it. For second, raising 6IV Egg Move Pokemon isn't in the slightest bit challenging. If it took legitimate skill to raise competitive Pokemon then no, hackers wouldn't deserve to play competitively but the fact is that there's no skill, no hard work and it's not a test of anything except but how long you're willing to sit back and watch your character ride their bike left and right.
Not to mention, so many people that get pissy at hackers just happen to have a 6IV shiny foreign Ditto that's totally legit and not using hacks to get an advantage.
Not to mention, so many people that get pissy at hackers just happen to have a 6IV shiny foreign Ditto that's totally legit and not using hacks to get an advantage.
How are they going to prove you didnt rip the rom yourself? Do you think the feds are going to bust in your house, search your ip address for hours to find one instance where you downloaded a 3-100mb game that you currently own? Or are you going to tell them yourself? No.. But, although it is considered illegal, it is incredibly unlikely that you will be prosecuted for it 0.0000000000000001%
Besides my edit was about the bios files. Not even the roms... Now if were done being smart asses im outta here.
Last edited by AydenTheKilla,
It's like nintendo can tell genned pokemons apart, yet we have this thread lulz
The only argument I see here is: the end result can't be distinguished from a pokemon made within the limits of the game by anyone (except for the the person who cheated it into existence and technically everyone else who knows they cheated because improbable odds mean it can't be that everyone has the same perfect pokemon)
And I never disagreed with that. But don't expect me to see 'genners' as anything but cheaters, just because they cheat a little less than they could.
I argued, that 'taking out the middle man' to 'save time' is no valid argument. The game doesn't give you that option. The game went pretty far in making it easier for everyone to get perfect breeds and even perfect legendaries. They set the boundaries you're supposed to stay in to get where you want to get.
The people who make the game and hold the official tournaments specifically forbid manipulating Pokemon.
You just ignore those rules imposed to you because they're inconvenient to you and no one can catch you if you break them.
It does not change the fact that this makes you a cheater and you technically aren't even allowed to participate in those tournaments because of it.
Again, take literally any other game as an example.
Just because no one finds out you're cheating / taking drugs / stealing money from the bank while no one is looking / marked your cards to know what you will draw next / draw two cards without anyone noticing [this here is like a staple in any tcg ever] / apply rules wrongly without anyone noticing / use cheat dice that no one checks / count cards / manipulated the machine / etc etc etc, doesn't mean you didn't cheat.
It doesn't matter that, in these cases, when no one notice, you end up with a win that can't be distinguished from any other win. You still cheated to get there.
It does not matter that you stay within the rules partly enough to not set off the little hax detection the games have to offer when hexing a pokemon. Because while you could get there legally, you didn't.
Now you probably want to argue that these examples don't apply here, because by say, manipulating the dice, you get 'more' advantage than by manipulating a Pokemon you would otherwise need to invest a few hours into getting.
But that's a bs argument too. Even if you couldn't actually manipulate the dice in a dice game to do what you want it too, but simply know what it will roll in advance, it still gives you an advantage in most games, without actually changing anything about the game itself. Because you can think ahead and move your pieces according to it.
Even if you could spend 10 years to hone your body and skills to the same level you would reach by taking a bunch of drugs for like one year, you're still cheating by taking the drugs, even if the end result is the same.
And of course, again for the third or so time, you do gain an actual advantage over anyone who isn't cheating. You gain time to say, improve your predictive abilities and learn more strategies as well as absolute access to tactics only other cheaters can reasonably attain, like the Kyogre that has maximum damage output, survivability, Type Coverage but survives like one more attack with Foul Play.
It does not matter that your cheating can't be detected, it doesn't stop cheating from being cheating.
It does not change that the rules set upon the players are to not use third party soft- or hardware, that the average player does not cheat and that you gain an advantage.
It also does not change that you, while having the option to play specifically only against people with your mindset outside of the official game and its rules by using pokemon showdown, you still insist on playing against the entire userbase of the original game, which of course, includes both cheaters and non-cheaters.
And of course they argue exactly that, even if they don't word it like this.
They say they need that perfect Kyogre that they could not get easily otherwise.
They argue that all the pros are cheating, so its either completely ok or a necessary must to do the same.
They say they can't really battle otherwise, and the only reason this could be the case is because they feel disadvantaged (boo hoo hoo).
as for you:
not that it matters, but if we start juging people by their profile pics now, you having a scaly thats somewhat of a star among bara-fans and fatfurs on yours doesn't exactly put you in a better place, does it?
except BS! all the latest games have a good dozen rare candies just lying around, as well as unlimited rare candies through pickup, battlepoints, online trading and probably two more ways i'm not thinking off right now.
yes, cloning items is cheating, too.
but if you're too dense to save before you use those rare candies, i really cant help you anymore.
btw, there's probably an expression for what you're trying there with the implying i'm also cheating and thus being a hypocrite, trying to devalue my arguments with that.
its not quite 'putting words in my mouth' but something among those lines and its both, sign of you being terrible at arguing, extremely easy to see through AND being a dipshit.
which is why i added that this resolves itself after less than 5 rare candies. and we're only talking about your kyogre.
if we're back to everything that breeds, you absolutely have access to your IV checker again, making this argument as invalid as all the others.
I said I have played these games for ages, having IV checked and EV trained pokemon long before Power items and horde battles made EV training take like 5 minutes and before there were easy ways to find your IVs other than doing it manually with rare candies or leveling up while keeping track of EVs earned.
Not that I have played in any official tournaments.
DO YOU EVEN READ WHAT I WRITE?!
I told you I'm not -JUST- insulting you for the sake of insulting or derailing the thread. I'm arguing, quite normally, then insulting you, because you leave the impression of being kinda slow or trolling.
We're arguing here. Your arguments, as seen above, are mostly false and I would guess, that's either because A) you're intentionally spreading wrong information to make it seem like not playing with cheats online makes playing the game impossible. or B) because you are stupid and know only half of what you're talking about.
It's probably both. And I insult you for both. I stand by that.
Granted, if you actually believe half the things you're saying, you probably haven't played any of these games in ages, which would explain a few things.
If you look in my quote. I said you can get around it.
Then this
Pretty much sums up everything for roms and emulators together as a whole. Its 5:30 am and i work 3rd shift and have not slept yet. Get over yourself
Last edited by AydenTheKilla,
Again with the inane comparisons. Your examples are instances of actual cheating, where a person does get an advantage and/or harms others unfairly, whereas genning doesn't give anyone any advantages during battling itself (or any, really, other than time saved). Ultimately, your argument seems to just boil down to "the rules say it's technically cheating so you're a horrible person if you do it" (a very bureaucratic attitude), yet you still haven't been able to explain, argue or demonstrate how it actually matters on any meaningful or moral level. how does genning affect you, or anyone, in any way?
What advantage? How? You haven't actually been able to substantiate your claims in any meaningful way.
Straw man, straw man, straw man.
Between your intellectual dishonesty, your insults, and your self-righteous, sanctimonious and holier-than-thou attitude, I honestly think it's best if I just put you on Ignore. It's clear that you're incapable of engaging in open, reasoned discourse.
Last edited by Xiphiidae,
Wait what? Aside from that you made me look up what "bara" even means on urban dictionary - how is a dragonite screaming "this is outrage" a star amongst fans of a gay magazine? And I've never ever seen a dragonite fursuit either (wouldn't want to see it either) so I don't get what you mean with that either.
Last edited by Favna,
1. The game is not only online battling. Stop pretending like it is. Stop pretending that you were supposed to play competitively online on equal footing without spending the time playing the game offline and making your monsters the way you are supposed to make them. Stop acting entitled to having a team that would take at the very worst 20 hours to put together in seconds and then over and over again to adapt any new strategy, any new moveset, any new setup. You're not.
Time invested may not be the absolute benchmark to measure skill, but in Pokemon it is very clearly intended to be at least part of that.
2. Accepting that cheating is cheating is not bureaucratic, its literal first grade reading comprehension.
3. If the rules say its forbidden and you break the rules, you're a cheater. Yes.
4. I'm not saying you're a horrible person if you cheat. I'm only saying you're a cheater if you cheat. And you shouldn't have any place in online play OR in official tournaments if you cheat. Because that's what the rules say. You don't have to like it. You don't even have to accept it because, clearly, its impossible to inforce the rule, but that does not invalidate either the rule, or anything that follows from breaking the rule. But you have to accept that you are a cheater and there is no argument in the world that stops that from being true.
The same way people who pirate games are in no danger of ever facing any consequences from it, but don't have the right to act as if what they're doing is not forbidden and at least to some degree, hurting the industry.
5. Clearly, if you ignore half of what I say makes no sense, is not meaningful and doesn't matter. But that's not truly an argument to make.
Even if no one faced any disadvantage due to cheating, it remains what it is, cheating. And it disqualifies you from anything that specifically forbids cheating. No matter how much you feel like it doesn't matter. If having blue eyes disqualified you from VGC, even if it was bs, it doesn't change that you're not allowed to participate, even if you wore contact lenses to make your eyes look brown.
Rules are rules. If they wanted you to have instant teams, they would give you a team builder and be done with that.
6. Advantages of cheating: How many times do I need to explain that, among other things, the time saved and the insane adaptability to new strategies alone is already a huge advantage? You save all the time to make your Pokemon and can use that to learn more strategies, prepare more, battle more, yes. Someone finds a flaw in your team? You can adapt in a minute. A strong Pokemon with an OP but not banned move that perfectly complements its typing, abilities and throws it from BL to OU gets released in South Korea in limited quantities? ITS LEGIT TO HAVE IT NOW so you will. Even though you, me and everyone else knows you wouldn't really be able to get it, at least not within the next few months. Not even through online trading.
In an average online environment that is mainly inhabited by non-cheaters (which it is, don't be fooled by the fact that a huge part of the competitive crowd cheats too, you're battling people online indiscriminately, because you could just stick to showdown otherwise), you do put yourself in a much better spot when it comes to superficialities like win/lose ratio.
As people have already admitted, they'll be online with their perfect Pokemon on day one. Not to play their old teams on the new game against others that do the same, but to jack off to the thought of beating little kids with their Popplio and Litten using their legendaries.
Which is one way in that cheating has actually hurt the entire online aspect of these games. It's keeping new people out because its cheat, hours of time, or bust.
And most people that still stay, do lean towards cheating too, because of course, they notice by the time they have their team built through legal means (especially the first few pokemon, as it gets quicker only after a while) its already outdated to the point they can really only reliably beat people who aren't exactly trying or who simply happen to run something that just works in your favor.
it also helped to fill up online battles with all those 6 shiny legendaries types that are, on average easy to beat, but quickly butthurt, disconnecting or ending up waiting until the last second to make any move, then using protect every other turn till you give up.
Imagine a world without pokehex. A world where everyone needed to put in about the same time to get their pokemon and where not everyone has the same perfect legendaries. Where everyone probably had a dozen or two pokemon ready by the time a vgc came around. Surely, a bunch of staples in every other team, but probably a few more surprised to be found too. Someone might have played twice as much as the average, having twice as many pokemon and thus a bigger potential of strategies to employ. He would have an advantage over the others and rightfully so, however, there would still be imperfections among his legendaries, he certainly wouldn't have every single one in every single viable variation at his disposal.
If someone took the time to get some special move tutor move back in Ruby and managed to bring that all the way over to Sun and Moon, more power to them, they played these games for decades, they earned that advantage. But lets not pretend it makes sense for everyone to have that special move.
Finally, this strawman thing, its actually an expression I never heard, but I suppose it applies to making up assumptions, even if they seem very reasonable.
Tell me then, what are the reasons people feel the need to cheat online in the actual games, when they do have showdown to do virtually the same thing, recently even with pretty graphics, but without disturbing the natural online play that was, clearly, intended by gamefreak/nintendo, even if it can't be enforced?
Why go to a place where you will clearly run into people who don't play competitively and play against them competitively anyway?
Why go to a place where you will run into people who play competitively, but without cheating?
Why not stay, at least, in a community of your peers using message boards and friendcodes to battle those that either don't care that you cheated, or do have all the same advantages as you have?
What other reason than enjoying the advantage that comes with instant teams could there possibly be?
Having brought up furries yourself, I'd at least have expected you knew a little bit about those communities. Bara is generally a term applied to things that fetishize big, burly (either fattish or muscular) guys, you find it in anime and manga, real life and of course, among furries. it doesn't specifically imply gay stuff though. there's enough straight stuff that includes bara characters.
Dragonite who's both a fatty, a dragon (they're called scalies instead furries when its about dragons and lizards) and arguably a physically strong pokemon does fit in that category and is, thus, a good enough indicator to classify yourself in the same general community. congrats.
and just to get that one out of the way, of course i have access to cfw and can cheat. and like everyone else with wifi, i had access to the gts and its hacks.
and I did use cheats too, in pokemon non the less. but not for online play, at least not since the early platinum days.
so its not like i'm holier than thou or jealous of all the great cheaters out there.
but i know when I cheat. and i don't act like i didn't or pretend it was fine to do so. it was and is cheating.
the same way I'm pirating games on occasion and not pretending i'm actually doing a good thing due to free advertisment or someshit like that. even mentioning I can't in good conscience pay for all the games i want to play or throwing nintendo a few eshop bucks every other month doesn't change that. the same way putting limits on your cheating and calling it genning just because haxing sounded too much like doing something that's clearly against the rules does not change it being cheating either
Last edited by Clydefrosch,
Said the guy who has a Dragonite as his avatar. Huh, didn't know Verlis is a furry.
And as for you..
Ladies and gentlemen, we've got ourselves a comedian.
Annnnd your a loser who prefer to rely on a stupid modding system to do the work for you. Means that you've gave up on what Pokémon is meant for.
>a video game player (Me)
>using nonstandard methods (PKHex)
>to create an advantage or disadvantage BEYOND NORMAL GAMEPLAY, in order to make the game easier or harder. (Generate a Pokémon with a few clicks, which means I TAKES WAY LESS TIME AMD GOES BEYOND NORMAL GAMEPLAY, and makes the game easier. You just described PKHex...)
I wasn't talking about normal online gameplay. Only competitions.
No, it breaks the fun cause you're not doing anything but just clicking on stuff and BOOM! Completed.
Like I said before, cheat if you want. If you get caught, that's your own fault. Again, I use PKHex as well, but I just only create shiny Pokémon and Wondertrade them for fun, because I was bored.
But I'm still not buying the "I have other important things to do in life and it presents me from breeding for hours" bullshit.
Last edited by LuxerWap,
I've sometimes wondered if GF's apparent premise that it is "impossible" or "not worthy" to check for hacked / genned Pokémon makes any sense.
if you genned your team, then they are about as legal and proper as they can be in the game because they have all the valid data - but they and only they have that data. Your play time is still not adjusted for the extra 25-30 hours that breeding that hexaperfect Pokémon with the exact moves, Nature and Ability you want must have taken. GF could at least bother looking at the save's play time, or at the Activity Log's play time, , and the players trade list, to improve their heuristics of who actually "ran" the time to have the team they have. And that's just the start, in-game event flags, Pokémon Mart stuff and some other pieces of information can be used to improve the heuristics to detect a genned team.
But at the same time, improving the detection scheme makes no sense if the players have control of the data. At the point where you can gen and hax your entire team, you can probably modify anything in the game save that's worth checking (badges, play time, items, money, you name it). Any detection scheme that GF could design that were to aim towards discarding false negatives would, pretty much by necessity, have to incorporate IRL checks. Probably trainers would have to sign up to a IRL check program where a GF (or affiliated) supervisor would visit them and check their in-game progress and out-game playing habits every once in a while.
...But that would cost money. And likely require parents consent.
if you genned your team, then they are about as legal and proper as they can be in the game because they have all the valid data - but they and only they have that data. Your play time is still not adjusted for the extra 25-30 hours that breeding that hexaperfect Pokémon with the exact moves, Nature and Ability you want must have taken. GF could at least bother looking at the save's play time, or at the Activity Log's play time, , and the players trade list, to improve their heuristics of who actually "ran" the time to have the team they have. And that's just the start, in-game event flags, Pokémon Mart stuff and some other pieces of information can be used to improve the heuristics to detect a genned team.
But at the same time, improving the detection scheme makes no sense if the players have control of the data. At the point where you can gen and hax your entire team, you can probably modify anything in the game save that's worth checking (badges, play time, items, money, you name it). Any detection scheme that GF could design that were to aim towards discarding false negatives would, pretty much by necessity, have to incorporate IRL checks. Probably trainers would have to sign up to a IRL check program where a GF (or affiliated) supervisor would visit them and check their in-game progress and out-game playing habits every once in a while.
...But that would cost money. And likely require parents consent.
After all this can´t be stopped or the ¨moderate¨ cheaters separated from non cheaters.
I hope GF improve detection to the maximum it could reach, until then we all have to learn to play this way and learn to cheat as well.
I hope GF improve detection to the maximum it could reach, until then we all have to learn to play this way and learn to cheat as well.
But if you change the IVs and reroll the PID in pkHex of a Pokémon , can't Nintendo says that it is hacked?(for example in a legendary mon)
Wow I thought Nintendo is more stringent in VCG tournaments ...
I thought they know the legal generated pid and the hacked one ...
Wow I thought Nintendo is more stringent in VCG tournaments ...
I thought they know the legal generated pid and the hacked one ...
I hope you realise that, especially towards the end, it almost seems like you're arguing for Nintendo/Game Freak to be an authoritarian Big Brother-like figure that polices everyone's lives, and for what? To stop people from genning to save some time breeding? If you think that Game Freak investigating people's lives is 'worth' people not being able to use genned mons, then you're beyond help. What if people breed/train legit mons for use in tournaments but gen in the private time to test strategies? Should they be banned as well?
I agree that current official hack-checks need to be improved, but you need to realise that the more stringent you make the checks, especially when you start to involve things other than the data of used Pokémon, it dramatically increases the rates of false positives, which I imagine Game Freak would want to desperately avoid.
Whoa, you think that being bored is an excuse for cheating? Don't you care about the people who legitimately obtain shiny Pokémon and Wondertrade them, or the people who are receiving your hacked shiny mons over Wondertrade?
Again, you don't get to decide that.
So now you get to come up with arbitrary rules as well? Wonderful. What was all that stuff about Pokémon and bonding again?
Again, you don't get to decide what is and isn't fun for other people; some people don't find any fun in breeding/training, and just want to battle.
Very empathetic of you.
Last edited by Xiphiidae,
If you are lacking the reading comprehension to read what I actually wrote, in the order that I actually wrote it, instead of reading your own overimposed version of the discourse, then you're beyond help.
I specifically mentioned that I was wondering if the idea that it's not worth it makes any sense to GF's eyes. Then I pointed out that any scheme wouldn't make sense if they didn't also jump to the physical layer, and I even mentioned two big hurdles against that, to cap the post even.
I certainly don't know if it would be "worth" the trouble in GF's eyes, but I certainly at no point have passed moral judgment on what I think GF's position on the matter should be. (Which, in case you were to be actually any interested instead of just spouting "triggered" crap, is that genned mons should be allowed (there''s no in-game legit and proper reason not to) but with the suggestion that they be disclosed as such). And I think I've made it prett clear that even trying to apply such a verification scheme would be a cumbersome task. And for what... for a videogame. Geez. it's not the Presidential Elections...
I apologise for misreading what you wrote, though you didn't make it particularly clear that you were just wondering; to me it very much seemed like you were advocating a position. You could have just said "actually, I wasn't arguing for this to be the case, I was just demonstrating xyz", but instead you chose to be rude and vitriolic. It's also pretty rich for you to accuse me if being 'triggered', considering your emotional overreaction.
As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, I believe Game Freak have made their relative apathy towards genners pretty apparent, and I imagine they consider it more worthwhile to prevent people from being able to hack in the first place, rather than introduce checks against those who do hack.
Last edited by Xiphiidae,
I for one am not about to rebreed the hundreds of pokemon that i already spent countless hours hatching checking for ivs egg moves ability nature and in some cases gender nah im good once i have my pokemon hatched and im satisfied then if i need a clone for different moves or strategy then ill clone it change the nature ability moves ivs or whatever to fulfill that need. Nothing like a Charizard with Surf or Dragonite with Play Rough cuz THATS cheating but to gen something legit meant for battle i dont see how its cheating people just wanna be mad and fuss about dumb shit. If i win VGC its all cool then i lose the next year to a 100% legit team its revealed i uses legit hacks then what could you say? I won with hacks and lost with them so how can i be deemed a cheater??
Last edited by MarzDaindigo,
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They didn't earn those pokemon, so no, they do not deserve to.
It's like asking if people who roided up to get jacked deserve to have a spot at athletic competitions versus people who actually worked very hard to be at their level.
It's like asking if players with hacked gear deserve to be able to fight competitively against another player with legit gear, regardless of whether or not their gear are at the same tier. (Hacked gear but within game limits)
I don't play DOTA2, but I can use it as an example. Imagine grinding up for a Divine Rapier for whatever reason, going up to clash, then your opponent surprises you by having one himself because he hacked it in. Just scratch the why, semantics. It's a totally legit weapon, but the way they got it isn't. How would you feel going up against someone like that? What, they didn't wanna waste time grinding for it.
"It's just a game", some people say. But when you turn it into a competition, it's up to you if you wanna throw fairness out the window. Should apply to everything competitive, but it always made me wonder why this isn't the case for pokemon players.
It's like asking if people who roided up to get jacked deserve to have a spot at athletic competitions versus people who actually worked very hard to be at their level.
It's like asking if players with hacked gear deserve to be able to fight competitively against another player with legit gear, regardless of whether or not their gear are at the same tier. (Hacked gear but within game limits)
I don't play DOTA2, but I can use it as an example. Imagine grinding up for a Divine Rapier for whatever reason, going up to clash, then your opponent surprises you by having one himself because he hacked it in. Just scratch the why, semantics. It's a totally legit weapon, but the way they got it isn't. How would you feel going up against someone like that? What, they didn't wanna waste time grinding for it.
"It's just a game", some people say. But when you turn it into a competition, it's up to you if you wanna throw fairness out the window. Should apply to everything competitive, but it always made me wonder why this isn't the case for pokemon players.
Last edited by ferofax,
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