Hacking About the inevitability of playing 3DS games and the DS2

[rj216641]

Hi guys, not too sure if this should be in this section. I just my Dstwo a few days ago and I'm having a lot of fun, but I have something that's been concerning me:

We all know that one day someone genius enough will finally find a way for flashcards to work with 3DS games. With that in mind, what are the possibilities that all I need is a new upgrade to my firmware? Or would I have to buy a new flashcard?

Sorry if this question sounds stupid, I just got my Dstwo recently and I would be pissed if tomorrow if tomorrow someone hacked the 3DS and I need to buy another flashcard to play 3DS games.




tl;dr... When 3DS games are finally playable on flashcards would I need to get a new flashcard?

 

[prowler]

We don't know.

 

[Terminator02]

Most likely yes, u will need a new flashcart, however it depends on what method the hack uses, for all we know it could even be a softmod and we use the sd card as storage

 

[Deleted member 473940]

We dont know yet, and most likely different hardware would be required to access 3DS mode.
Yet again, we wont know till something has happened regarding that

.

 

[8BitWalugi]

I do recall SuperCard team saying they could use the on board CPU to maybe fool the 3DS into thinking it's a 3DS cart.

That is, IF it gets cracked.

 

[Searinox]

There is an extremely, and I mean very extremely small chance that an exploit could be found in the DS emulator of the 3DS to allow access to 3DS mode, but it remains extremely unlikely that even then the flashcart, with its current makeup, could use it in any meaningful way, not to mention Nintendo patching it.

Conceptually the two types of hardware that are needed for each mode. And historically, no one has ever used a flashcart of one generation to unlock use in an upper generation, on any console. You're safe to assume that it's impossible or will never be done, in favor of 3DS-dedicated flashcarts.

 

[KidIce]

The SCDS2 could probably have it's FPGA repurposed to boot the 3DS in 3DS mode (once the 3DS is cracked, obviously), I kind of doubt the Super Card Team would do so. One, depending on what is write protected on the SCDS2's FPGA one would likely need to hook it to a JTAG for reprogramming. Most users don't have the ability, JTAG hardware, etc to do this and they would need to distribute the keys to the protected parts of the FPGA. Two, SC3DS means more sales.

 

[Decooter]

Here's all you need to know: Even if it were somehow possible to do this, there's virtually no chance it would ever happen. Every flash card team could make new flash cards that support 3DS instead of updating old ones, and everyone would have to pay premium for them. More money to the flash card teams.

 

[KidIce]

Here's all you need to know: Even if it were somehow possible to do this, there's virtually no chance it would ever happen. Every flash card team could make new flash cards that support 3DS instead of updating old ones, and everyone would have to pay premium for them. More money to the flash card teams.

Depending on the technology that is going to be required to fool the 3DS, not EVERY flash cart team could update their current carts to work w/ the eventual exploits. FPGA's are not created equal. Some have far less realestate, some are slow, some have had too much of the critical space for the exploit protected, etc.

I actually suspect that when the 3DS is cracked, most the flash cart manufacturers will have to update the hardware out of necessity rather than to make money selling new carts... Although, I stand by my comment that even those that already have the tech enough WILL release new carts rather than update the current line.

I honestly don't think the SCDS2's CPU is going to be the thing that makes it works first on the 3DS. I suspect they would have to ditch the CPU for space for the 3DS exploit. How happy will that make those who don't own a 3DS and still want their SCD2 for GBA/SNES/etc on their DS/i/XL's? Ditching the CPU also likely means JTAG'ing and key releases as discussed above.

Your right, it almost definitely will require the end user to buy a new flash cart, but it won't just be because of the teams wanting to sell more carts.

 

[tranfeer]

It's sure you must get a new flashcard,haha.

 

[TheDarkSeed]

Woah there buddy!

Let's not make wild assumptions now! I remember some time ago when Rydian said something about the bandwidth limit on a DS game card being smaller than one for the 3DS. That alone is reason enough for me to believe that it's just not possible even with the built in processor that the SCDS2 has.

...Although I will admit that it would be pretty freaking sweet if they managed to pull off something like that.

 

[Rydian]

Somebody else told me the bandwidth differences are not so much, but I never saw anything else about that so I'm still holding to the bandwidth concern (since it's well-known that DS slot-1 bandwidth sucks).

Of the current flash carts, the DSTwo and iEvo do seem to have the highest chance of being able to do this if the bandwidth limit isn't a killer (and of those two reputable sources say the iEvo has a technical leg-up on the DSTwo, and given how the iEvo works I believe it).

 

[kevan]

I reckon that there is a chance that the DSTWO or the Ievo will work with 3DS games, but most likely new hardware will be needed.

 

[KidIce]

The bandwidth limit should only be a factor if the 3DS carts are wired differently than the DS carts. Given that the DS can read saves and such from a 3DS cart I doubt that to be the case. The bandwidth limits should only come from the DS and the IC's in the carts themselves. It's unlikely that it would come from the PCB in the carts, and the FPGA in the SCDS2 and iEvo is capable of speeds far beyond the DS's slot 1.

I admit I am attempting to predict the future by looking at the past, but currently the SCDS2's CPU is not used to circumvent the anti-flash cart tech on the DS/DSi/3DS. In fact, I'm pretty sure that CPU is taking up realestate on the SCDS2's FPGA (and is in protected space) that the iEvo is using to hold enough of My Healthy Cooking Coach to enable the DSi mode exploit. The iEvo's space on the FPGA holding My Healthy Cooking Coach is not protected or it would not be user updatable... I'm guessing that's why Rydian's sources think "the iEvo has a technical leg-up", not the bandwidth limit. Both carts should be equally capable of meeting or exceeding that limit.

That alone is reason enough for me to believe that it's just not possible even with the built in processor that the SCDS2 has.

@ TheDarkSeed: If you are talking to me, I said I don't think the SCDS2's CPU is the answer. It has not been used to circumvent the DSi's or 3DS's increasing security against DS flash carts, most likely because it's not useful in doing so. Even w/ the SCDS2's CPU we can not use the My Healthy Cooking Coach exploit for DSi mode on our SCDS2's, and that's almost assuredly because there isn't space on the SCDS2 to flash the game to it's FPGA.

 

[TheDarkSeed]

QUOTE(KidIce @ Aug 10 2011, 07:18 AM)

Directed @ OP.

 

[Rydian]

The bandwidth limit should only be a factor if the 3DS carts are wired differently than the DS carts. Given that the DS can read saves and such from a 3DS cart I doubt that to be the case. The bandwidth limits should only come from the DS and the IC's in the carts themselves. It's unlikely that it would come from the PCB in the carts, and the FPGA in the SCDS2 and iEvo is capable of speeds far beyond the DS's slot 1.You sure about this? I know that DVDs can't hold 1080P video not directly because of space concerns (as you could just have a shorter video), but bandwidth, it simply can't be read quickly enough. I don't know all that much (okay, jack shit) about how carts actually communicate with the system, but from my understanding of such things as USB/firewire specifications (for example) it's generally a physical limit (for example USB 3 ports may have the same sort of shape, but four extra connections that USB 3 connectors contact and USB 2 ones don't).

QUOTE(KidIce @ Aug 10 2011, 01:18 AM) I admit I am attempting to predict the future by looking at the past, but currently the SCDS2's CPU is not used to circumvent the anti-flash cart tech on the DS/DSi/3DS. In fact, I'm pretty sure that CPU is taking up realestate on the SCDS2's FPGA (and is in protected space) that the iEvo is using to hold enough of My Healthy Cooking Coach to enable the DSi mode exploit. The iEvo's space on the FPGA holding My Healthy Cooking Coach is not protected or it would not be user updatable... I'm guessing that's why Rydian's sources think "the iEvo has a technical leg-up", not the bandwidth limit.

Yeah what I've been given doesn't mention bandwidth, but pretty much directly talks about the complexity and flexibility of the chip of various flash carts.

 

[machomuu]

I dunno, it could be different this time.

 

[KidIce]

The bandwidth limit should only be a factor if the 3DS carts are wired differently than the DS carts. Given that the DS can read saves and such from a 3DS cart I doubt that to be the case. The bandwidth limits should only come from the DS and the IC's in the carts themselves. It's unlikely that it would come from the PCB in the carts, and the FPGA in the SCDS2 and iEvo is capable of speeds far beyond the DS's slot 1.

You sure about this? I know that DVDs can't hold 1080P video not directly because of space concerns (as you could just have a shorter video), but bandwidth, it simply can't be read quickly enough. I don't know all that much (okay, jack shit) about how carts actually communicate with the system, but from my understanding of such things as USB/firewire specifications (for example) it's generally a physical limit (for example USB 3 ports may have the same sort of shape, but four extra connections that USB 3 connectors contact and USB 2 ones don't).

Well, I did say "I doubt". 3DS carts carry the same 17 pins that DS carts do and I suspect them to be used for the same signals, but no, I'm not sure about that. Your bottle necks are created by the hardware in the host or connected devices, the physical connection between the two or the protocol used to communicate. USB 2.0 is largely an upgrade to the hardware involved (better hosts, ferrite usage,crystals vs resonators, etc) over 1.0 rather than changes in protocol or connection. As you pointed out USB3 has more pins (signal lines) and that is a major factor in it's speed increase.

The spec for the proprietary memory on a DS cart was pretty poor, IIRC (I can't seem to find the article discussing the stuff), but it was cheap and had a small package so it's what Nintendo ended up using. The interface hardware wouldn't need to read any faster then that stuff could deliver so it's also likely to be crap. Here it is years after the release of the DS and better components are available for less money. To assume the memory used in a 3DS cart is faster isn't exactly a stretch IMO, and to take advantage of that one would need to include better interface hardware.

The pins on a 3DS cart could be carrying different signals and there could be a change in protocol, but DS's being able to access 3DS cart data suggests it's neither. No, I can't be sure w/o having the spec sheet for the hardware involved or reverse engineering it (something I'm not up to). I still feel reasonably safe in my theory given the factors to observe.

Actel ProASIC3's I/O lines are capable of 700 Mbps, I can guarantee that is more bandwidth than the DS slot 1 interface or the memory used in the retail carts. That FPGA is NOT the bottle neck, for sure.