why do people on forums hate jrpgs so much

FAST6191

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Yes we have, but it's not a genre.
Action RPGs, Turn-based RPGs, Strategy RPGs, dungeon crawlers, roguelikes, roguelites, etc are all genres.
jRPGs and wRPGs are not, they're regional terms as I said.

Though I might argue wRPG breaks down into North America and not North America (and not Japan) it is still a genre distinction, as much as genre is a useful term anyway. It mostly arose in the 8 and 16 bit eras as far as I can see. Compare something like Might and Magic to Dragon Quest and you have a fairly different style of game. Usually though it refers to the storytelling style -- fairly open and with characters you can bias vs rigid story structure with predefined characters. Or if you prefer one wants to be a computerised version of dungeons and dragons where the other would be a kind of interactive storybook.

It is entirely possible for a dev to make a game in either style regardless of their region of origin -- dragon's dogma being an example of a Japanese dev not using the formula, the eventual fate of the Wizardry series being another interesting one. Equally lines have been very blurred as tech got better and restrictions lifted.

Such things are not limited to games either -- folklore, "magic" (word based, mainly for places with writing and certain religions, vs internal/nature magic), board games (classically when you look at card and board games of East Asia and more recently where you get things like German board games), storytelling styles (see something like Greek tragedy and compare it to things coming out of Japan and possibly also compare those to some of the Norse ones) and more have all had examples of things falling into such regional conventions, which may later be appropriated for other things (Shakespeare borrowed reasonably heavily from a lot of Greek tragedies).
 

Veho

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jRPGs and wRPGs are not, they're regional terms as I said.
But they're not. A Western studio can make a JRPG, and a Japanese studio can make an RPG, it's not about the region. There is enough distinct differences in gameplay and storytelling between the two styles to make them different subgenres at least.
 
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Taleweaver

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Americans invented RPG, the thing with JRPG's is that they practically invariably do not follow the core principles of role-playing, hence the added "J" - to put a blind eye on the inconsistencies with the RPG genre because the games are "Japanese".

RPG's are about role-playing, JRPG's, often times, are about stats. The very idea behind role-playing games is to, of course, play the role of an imaginary character, usually a generated or created one, and guiding said character through an adventure, all the while making story-altering choices. This stands in contrast with JRPG's where more often than not the story is fixed and the only element of RPG that remains intact is the stats system.

There's a big difference between a "story" and an "adventure" in the sense that a story follows a usually pre-determined plot wheras an adventure is more of a sandbox of smaller stories that you may or may not encounter on your way to reaching your goal.
It can easily be treated as a separate genre due to the differences I mentioned above. JRPG's don't follow the blueprint of an actual RPG, they deviate from the original format, hence the distinction. That, and both evolved independently from one another, even if they have common roots.
If Americans truly invented RPG's then this whole WRPG vs JRPG wouldn't have been a thing. However, it's not true. Not in the historical sense in which most video game genres evolved, at least. The roleplaying genre was sort of invented on both countries at the same time, and evolved into different directions. I'd even argue that one of them (or even both) just change their name completely, as to indicate it's actually completely different genres.

Sure, the role-playing is a central element, but even that is pretty different. In Western RPG's, you usually ARE the main protagonist. You can often how he/she looks to fit your desires and have a wide open world.
In JRPG's, you PLAY the main protagonist. Though you can name them, the amount of choice you have is far less, or even non-existing. It's an interactive movie where you are invited to roleplay as THAT ONE GUY/GIRL.

I don't visit forums complaining about JRPG's often, but the stabs people take at final fantasy limiting choice ("corridor simulator" and such) are rather unjustified. You don't complain about books or movies being too linear, and there are plenty of games (most platformers, for example) that are linear as well. Truth is that JRPG's were never as much about exploration as they were about atmosphere and fantasy.

Yes we have, but it's not a genre.
Action RPGs, Turn-based RPGs, Strategy RPGs, dungeon crawlers, roguelikes, roguelites, etc are all genres.
jRPGs and wRPGs are not, they're regional terms as I said.
*sigh*

It's the same complaint I have, but unfortunately, it's not regarded that way. Nowadays, JRPG tend to mean more something like "an RPG in the Japanese tradition". The whole 'Japanese' part is actually irrelevant (it's like French fries...that isn't a regional term to how potatoes are cooked either ;) ).
 

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FAST6191

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Ignoring board games, physical arcades/fairgrounds/amusement parks/penny arcades, pen and paper, mathematical concepts of games and assuming computer games sprung out of the ether one day does not fly for me. It would be a bit like saying that TV ignores film, theatre and "over several nights at the fire" forms of storytelling.

Certainly computer games have gone on to explore abstractions that are all but impossible in the real world and in the real world dungeons and dragons, as meh as dungeons and dragons kind of is as a game, affords considerably more freedom/scope for unusual things than any AI driven computer game will have for decades.
 
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CompassNorth

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Compare something like Might and Magic to Dragon Quest and you have a fairly different style of game.
Yes, they're two different style of games, one is a dungeon crawler one isn't, it's not fair to compare them.

Usually though it refers to the storytelling style -- fairly open and with characters you can bias vs rigid story structure with predefined characters. Or if you prefer one wants to be a computerised version of dungeons and dragons where the other would be a kind of interactive storybook.
The whole "look at the storytelling!" point is bad. This is something that is only encountered in the "jRPG and wRPG are genres" debate. Games should be to be classified by gameplay and nothing else, this goes for art style too.

It is entirely possible for a dev to make a game in either style regardless of their region of origin

This is the point I'm trying to make

dragon's dogma being an example of a Japanese dev not using the formula, the eventual fate of the Wizardry series being another interesting one. Equally lines have been very blurred as tech got better and restrictions lifted.

And you lost me here. There is no country specific formula for creating a game.


It's funny you bring up Wizardry because Wizardry is a great reason why wRPGs and jRPGs as genres don't exist.

To the people who don't know Wizardry created the dungeon crawler genre and the franchise started in the early 80s by. Wizardry is a title that your typical modern gamer won't really know. Well not outside Japan anyways.

Wizardry did well in the United States and also in Japan. Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, Phantasy Star are just some of the games inspired by Wizardry.

But tell me this how come games like Etrian Odyssey, Class of Heroes, Demon Gaze are considered Japanese RPGs (genre), but Wizardry, Might and Magic, Bard's Tale are considered western RPGs (genre)?

There is enough distinct differences in gameplay and storytelling between the two styles to make them different subgenres at least.
As I said above storytelling does not contribute to gameplay mechanics which are how video games are classified.
Japanese RPGs were born from Western RPGs, and take influence from them too.
Turn-based combat originated from Western RPGs such notably Wizardry and the overworld RPG mechanic was used in Ultima which is another RPG that influenced Japan.

I know. But you're missing the part "Not in the historical sense in which most video game genres evolved, at least." (and I assumed we were talking about video game RPG's).

link to my own sources (from 1:00 onwards).
People need to stop linking that video. If there was one video I could delete from the internet it's that. The guy has no clue what he's talking about. Japanese games were inspired by Western RPGs video games, not Japanese board games.
He's talking out of his ass, Horii has said several times that Western video games influenced Dragon Quest and Sakaguchi and others has said the same or said that it was a mixture between western RPGs and Dragon Quest.
He also doesn't have any proof whatsoever to backup his info, he's assuming just because the same happened to Western RPG video games it applies to Japanese as well.
 

FAST6191

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Might and magic (and all the things like it) are usually given as classic examples in the wRPG tradition, Dragon Quest (and Final fantasy and everything like those) would be an example classics of the jRPG tradition. Both form the bulk of efforts in a concept when dividing by geographic area. The last few years may well have rendered this something of a historical note, and I am quite happy for that to be the case, but I would still hold that it existed in the fist place and owing to the rather undeveloping/static nature of most games once they have been released...

How is story, when a game has one anyway, not related to the concept of gameplay? The difference between meaningful choices and not/just being along for the ride, especially given all but the weakest games would have something to change how things work here*, would speak to

*my charisma matters little when I am using a spear or firing a bow, matters far more in town/non combat. If I have to spend upgrade points on one or the other then it plays into gameplay, especially if a branching path I might have had was changed. People seem to be calling Mass Effect a poor example but it still features this quite heavily.


""It is entirely possible for a dev to make a game in either style regardless of their region of origin"

This is the point I'm trying to make"

Nobody was really arguing otherwise, however in most things we tend to consider the most popular approaches and few would argue Japan was not mainly about what we have thus far dubbed JRPG. This modal average type approach is what I was heading for in those remaining examples.

"But tell me this how come games like Etrian Odyssey, Class of Heroes, Demon Gaze are considered Japanese RPGs (genre), but Wizardry, Might and Magic, Bard's Tale are considered western RPGs (genre)?"
Are they? Some might have confused the art styles but I am not sure if I have seen proper claims of them being JRPGs.
 

Foxi4

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They have different gameplay mechanics too.
Even if they had identical mechanics, stylistics are all it takes for a separate genre. JRPG's are easily recognizable, you can immediately distinguish them from western RPG's (because WRPG isn't a thing, the term is "RPG"), henceforth they are a separate entity, or rather, a subgenre in a broad category of role-playing. You'll have to give it a rest though, sometimes you just have to agree to disagree, despite overwhelming evidence.
 

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I don't complain about them, I just ignore their existence, just like every other game that doesn't interest me. A lot of newer Japanese media seem to have tropes I find annoying. Not saying I can't enjoy Japanese media, I enjoyed Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood and plenty of JRPGs from the 90s. It's just tropes that tend to be prevalent in newer Japanese media prevents me from enjoying the media.

Not saying that the tropes are wrong or anything like that, just that I don't enjoy them. If you enjoy them, then continue enjoying them.
 

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Calling a Japanese game a WRPG will never become mainstream. The first thing anyone will think is that you incorrectly assumed where the game was made. (especially if the game lacks an anime art style)

Saying that a WRPG means made in the west is the most intellectually straightforward use of the term. It technically doesn't describe the game any better than "RPG" but 1) genres don't do this anyway, they are just fast food labels (Mario 64 and Crash Bandicoot are both "3D platformers") If you want a know what a game is, ask for more detail, or play the damn game. 2) WRPG/JRPG do infer certain assumptions which often prove to be correct. Which is kind of the point of having genres. Not all fighting games are the same, but most are similar enough for the term " fighting game" to exist, which in turn helps to emphasize the significamce of those games which stray from the traditional mold. And lastly 3) Context matters. There are clues as to what someone means, besides simply the term they used.
 

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