Covid-19 vaccine

[Foxi4]

It's not projection.

Are you claiming that there were healthy athletes dropping by the hundreds every year, prior to 2021?

Prove it. Show me ONE. I found more than one, but I just want to see you do your own research, since it's obvious you have no clue what you're talking about.

We hear about this pratically multiple times a week, these days. Funny, that. And it never happened before.

Feel free to prove me wrong. Athletes are dying around the world. CHILDREN are dying from spontaneous heart failure, and I have never encountered this before in my life.

But, feel free to continue to try to insult me. That's what you folks do when you have no argument and you're backed into a corner that you put yourself into.

I think the perception of all these deaths is skewed, and I’ll explain to you why politely. Never in human history have we ever mounted such a massive vaccination effort. Billions upon billions of people have been vaccinated to date - if my Google-foo is correct, around 5.55 billion doses have been administered to date. The reports of deaths are, overall, few and far between - if 1% of the vaccinated was affected, you’d have 55.5 million dead bodies all around the place, and you don’t. Let’s say you see a dead athlete, and for the sake of an argument, let’s say that the vaccines played a part in that death due to heart inflammation, or an allergic reaction, or any other side effect. Let’s agree this is true for the sake of a thought experiment. Athletes experience excess strain on their heart due to the physical exertion they regularly experience. Cardiovascular damage due to excessive endurance exercise is a known risk in sports, this cohort always had an outsized risk of suffering from these conditions as-is - there are numerous papers about this. Sometimes two infinitesimally small risks align, and you get a negative result, but that result is a freak accident, not a general rule. Your likelyhood of suffering the same condition is almost non-existent - it’s already small, and you’re not an athlete, so your heart is not under constant strain. Does that make sense?

Edit: Ah yes, the evidence.

An evolving body of data indicates that chronically training for and participating in extreme endurance competitions such as marathons, ultra-marathons, Iron-man distance triathlons, very long distance bicycle racing, etc., can cause transient acute volume overload of the atria and right ventricle, with transient reductions in right ventricular ejection fraction and elevations of cardiac biomarkers, all of which generally return to normal within seven to ten days. In veteran extreme endurance athletes, this recurrent myocardial injury and repair may eventually result in patchy myocardial fibrosis, particularly in the atria, interventricular septum and right ventricle, potentially creating a substrate for atrial and ventricular arrhythmias. Furthermore, chronic, excessive, sustained, high-intensity endurance exercise may be associated with diastolic dysfunction, large-artery wall stiffening and coronary artery calcification. Not all veteran extreme endurance athletes develop pathological remodeling, and indeed lifelong exercisers generally have low mortality rates and excellent functional capacity.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6179786/

This is a known risk. You’re hearing about it now because of vaccine concern, but it has always existed, and the two in conjunction may or may not be synergistic in certain extremely rare cases. I say they’re rare because there isn’t a pile of 55+ million dead bodies for me to observe, and that’d be 1%.

 

[WalterSlovotsky]

I think the perception of all these deaths is skewed, and I’ll explain to you why politely. Never in human history have we ever mounted such a massive vaccination effort. Billions upon billions of people have been vaccinated to date - if my Google-foo is correct, around 5.55 billion doses have been administered to date. The reports of deaths are, overall, few and far between - if 1% of the vaccinated was affected, you’d have 55,5 million dead bodies all around the place, and you don’t. Let’s say you see a dead athlete, and for the sake of an argument, let’s say that the vaccines played a part in that death due to heart inflammation, or an allergic reaction, or any other side effect. Let’s agree this is true for the sake of a thought experiment. Athletes experience excess strain on their heart due to the physical exertion they regularly experience. Cardiovascular damage due to excessive endurance exercise is a known risk in sports, this cohort always had an outsized risk of suffering from these conditions as-is - there are numerous papers about this. Sometimes two infinitesimally small risks align, and you get a negative result, but that result is a freak accident, not a general rule. Your likekyhood of suffering the same condition is almost non-existent - it’s already small, and you’re not an athlete, so your heart is not under constant strain. Does that make sense?

I fully understand. But I also look at the fact that an athlete is naturally healthier than most sedentary people, their cardio is MUCH higher, and they tend to be (without counting injuries caused by the sport they are playing) in peak condition for a human being. Again, this is most; if you're a 450-pound linebacker, I doubt you are healthy in any way.

But we have lithe, lean, completely healthy people dropping. And I agree; the mass vaccination effort ensured that most of the population either chose to, or were compelled to, get the jab. If any correlation exists, that would certainly account for it.

My entire point on this tangent is the fact that I have NEVER seen this happen before. Maybe that's due to the deeper addiction that everyone has now with the fifteen-second news cycle, and how EVERYTHING is reported and bruited about ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Maybe all of these other deaths just flew under the radar because no one had anything to tie it to. It COULD be that, but I haven't seen the evidence to support that.

I still haven't found more than 6 or 7 incidences of this happening in the ten years prior to the vaccine mandate. And I seriously did look, without bias. I don't like to express any opinion I haven't at least done my homework on.

I asked for examples of this ever happening before, and this isn't the first place I have asked this question. So far, not a single answer from anyone. Nothing but ad hominem and insults.

 

[Foxi4]

I fully understand. But I also look at the fact that an athlete is naturally healthier than most sedentary people, their cardio is MUCH higher, and they tend to be (without counting injuries caused by the sport they are playing) in peak condition for a human being. Again, this is most; if you're a 450-pound linebacker, I doubt you are healthy in any way.

But we have lithe, lean, completely healthy people dropping. And I agree; the mass vaccination effort ensured that most of the population either chose to, or were compelled to, get the jab. If any correlation exists, that would certainly account for it.

My entire point on this tangent is the fact that I have NEVER seen this happen before. Maybe that's due to the deeper addiction that everyone has now with the fifteen-second news cycle, and how EVERYTHING is reported and bruited about ad infinitum, ad nauseum. Maybe all of these other deaths just flew under the radar because no one had anything to tie it to. It COULD be that, but I haven't seen the evidence to support that.

I still haven't found more than 6 or 7 incidences of this happening in the ten years prior to the vaccine mandate. And I seriously did look, without bias. I don't like to express any opinion I haven't at least done my homework on.

I asked for examples of this ever happening before, and this isn't the first place I have asked this question. So far, not a single answer from anyone. Nothing but ad hominem and insults.

See edit above. Their cardio is, comparatively speaking, better. That being said, after periods of excessive exercise their hearts are particularly at risk of inflammation, specifically due to the strain they experience. Medical research supports this - their hearts experience temporary, or even permanent damage. Sometimes stars align and bad things happen. That’s nobody’s fault, that’s a freak accident. The article is from 2012 too, so it’s not biased - COVID wasn’t even a factor 11 years ago, and we already knew this to be true.

 

[WalterSlovotsky]

Whatever dude, I'm just gonna call out your bullshit until you post something verifiable that supports your claim.

Fortunately anyone remotely intelligent sees through your shit

Why are you so unwilling to do so and prove me wrong directly?

You can just say that you can't show me any examples of this happening prior to 2021 without continuing to lamely attempt to insult me. If you HAD any examples, you would have shut me down already, and it would be embarrassing for me to even continue this discussion in the face of facts.


Anger is the typical response of someone who painted themselves into a corner. I understand. Breathe, buddy. Breathe.

If this is the worst part of your day, you're having a great day. Chin up.

 

[supermist]

You can just say that you can't show me any examples of this happening prior to 2021 without continuing to lamely attempt to insult me. If you HAD any examples, you would have shut me down already, and it would be embarrassing for me to even continue this discussion in the face of facts.


Anger is the typical response of someone who painted themselves into a corner. I understand. Breathe, buddy. Breathe.

If this is the worst part of your day, you're having a great day. Chin up.

What corner? You don't understand what a statistical outlier is and you've proved that given your responses and fixation on half a dozen athletes

 

[WalterSlovotsky]

What corner? You don't understand what a statistical outlier is and you've proved that given your responses and fixation on half a dozen athletes

I just need you to show me ONE.

You aren't engaged in this discussion. You only want to be right.

You're done, here.

You have my permission to have the last word. You're a waste of time.

 

[supermist]

I just need you to show me ONE.

You aren't engaged in this discussion. You only want to be right.

You're done, here.

You have my permission to have the last word. You're a waste of time.

That's your responsibility. Do your own homework.

Fucking liar.

 

[Xzi]

Hippies leaning right is like pigs flying.

Indeed, that's why things happened the other way around. Snake oil salesmen, including the New Age ones, moved right as Republicans demonstrated more and more that that's where the demand is. Thus the reason Dr. Oz ran as a Republican even though his show would've had a mostly liberal audience at the height of its popularity. Jenny McCarthy and Sarah Palin are basically the same person, and both of them are female analogues to Trump.

Like I said, ever since Reagan the right will buy whatever a D-list celebrity is selling, so long as they're also peddling race and class divisions along the way.

 

[RetroGen]

I just have to ask again, of anyone who believes in getting this vaccine.

If it WORKS, and if it actually protects you, then why would it matter if someone else chooses not to get the jab?

If it's that effective, and will prevent you from contracting this new form of SARS, shouldn't you be totally fine?

Either you believe it works or you don't. If you believe, then have faith! You're TOTALLY safe!

Just ask Jill Biden, one of the people on the planet who has some of the best healthcare provided to anyone in the world.

Oh, wait. Quintuple-jabbed Dr. Jill JUST got COVID...

Hmmmm...

Binary thinking is not useful here. The name of the game is mitigating, not completely eliminating, risk. It is unreasonable to expect magic bullets when it comes to health and safety.

If you wear a seat belt, does it totally guarantee you won't be injured in a crash? How about if your vehicle has air bags? Crumple zones? Shatterproof glass? Helmets while on motorcycles? In fact, none of these things provides 100% protection from injury; so, by the thinking suggested above, there must be zero point in having any of them, right? Just ride and die a free man! No, that black and white thinking misses the point, as each safety feature significantly reduces the risk of injury and death.

COVID-19 vaccines have been statistically shown to reduce the severity of illness and greatly reduce the risk of death. Like seat belts, they are not an impenetrable shield, but rather serve to mitigate risk. Studies have also shown that they reduce viral load and the risk of transmitting COVID-19 to other people. And it is not just about me, either; personally, I don't want to be the one who infects another person, perhaps someone who is immunocompromised and cannot get vaccinated, and cause them to die or get long-COVID.

 

[WalterSlovotsky]

Binary thinking is not useful here. The name of the game is mitigating, not completely eliminating, risk. It is unreasonable to expect magic bullets when it comes to health and safety.

If you wear a seat belt, does it totally guarantee you won't be injured in a crash? How about if your vehicle has air bags? Crumple zones? Shatterproof glass? Helmets while on motorcycles? In fact, none of this things provides 100% protection from injury; so, by the thinking suggested above, there must be zero point in having any of them, right? Just ride and die a free man! No, that black and white thinking misses the point, as each safety feature significantly reduces the risk of injury and death.

COVID-19 vaccines have been statistically shown to reduce the severity of illness and greatly reduce the risk of death. Like seat belts, they are not an impenetrable shield, but rather serve to mitigate risk. Studies have also shown that they reduce viral load and the risk of transmitting COVID-19 to other people. And it is not just about me, either; personally, I don't want to be the one who infects another person, perhaps someone who is immunocompromised and cannot get vaccinated, and cause them to die or get long-COVID.

So, I ask again; if the vaccine is SO effective, and if it protects you, then why would it matter if I get the jab or not?

You're safe with those chemicals running through your veins. Totally safe and protected. Even if I expectorated directly into your face, you're Mario with an Invincibility Star.

I GET the argument that migitation is not absolute defense or protection, but if YOU have so much faith in it, then it really is a moot point if *I* get the jab or not. YOUR jabs should "mitigate" any risk to you.


So, get as many jabs as you want. It's your liberty to do so. If they make you feel safer, rock on! They totally worked for both Joe and Jill Biden, who have both contracted it, even though there are few people on the planet with access to the level of healthcare and protection that they have.

I'll continue to go unmasked, without allowing anyone to force me to get injected with something I do not have any faith in.

Ain't liberty swell?


I also made it clear previously that I couldn't care less if 90% of humanity died from COVID. I believe I mentioned that that's precisely what I WANT to have happen. I have no personal emotional attachment to anyone in the world. I don't care if the whole human race is annihilated by this new form of SARS that has a lower death rate than the flu. That includes me; I'd be happy to die tomorrow of COVID. Fuck, threaten me with a good time.

Point being, an emotional or compassionate appeal won't work on me. Humans are awful, and the world doesn't need us. I see COVID as a failed attempt by Mother Nature to thin out the herd. I just wish it was more effective.

 

[RetroGen]

So, I ask again; if the vaccine is SO effective, and if it protects you, then why would it matter if I get the jab or not?

You're safe with those chemicals running through your veins. Totally safe and protected. Even if I expectorated directly into your face, you're Mario with an Invincibility Star.

I provided a reasonable argument. You're still thinking in binaries. In reality, the universe is complicated and full of nuances, caveats, compromises, and opportunities to mitigate, but not completely eliminate, risk. There are no invincibility stars, except in Mario reality. I dunno about you, but I don't live in a video game... I live in reality.

 

[WalterSlovotsky]

I provided a reasonable argument. You're still thinking in binaries. In reality, the universe is complicated and full of nuances, caveats, compromises, and opportunities to mitigate, but not completely eliminate, risk. There are no invincibility stars, except in Mario reality. I dunno about you, but I don't live in a video game... I live in reality.

It's... a gaming forum, brother. I was using a Mario reference for that reason. You're a gamer. You understood what I meant.

 

[tabzer]

People offering medical advice on the internet is always interesting to me. Unfortunately, in this forum, people like to be condescending about it. Is there moral high ground in pretending to be a physician.

 

[KingVamp]

Considering this post, I'm not going to give them the benefited of the doubt of them not just being dismissive.

I can't believe we are having this discussion again, covid is and has always been bullshit, let them take there shots if they want, it gets rid of all the stupid people.

People offering medical advice on the internet is always interesting to me. Unfortunately, in this forum, people like to be condescending about it. Is there moral high ground in pretending to be a physician.

You are talking about the people who are throwing conspiracy theories everywhere, like 5G chips, right?

 

[tabzer]

You are talking about the people who are throwing conspiracy theories everywhere, like 5G chips, right?

What about 5G chips?

 

[NoobletCheese]

The law says so.

The law can say whatever it wants, it's not a source of truth.
I suppose if the law is informed by government agencies, those agencies wouldn't be a source of truth either.

That’s not how informed consent works.

That's why I said there is an exception if informed consent was given. The key word there is informed - you can't really be informed if the primary safety endpoint of the phase 3 clinical trials hasn't been completed, and they had already given the products full approval and were imposing mandates long before this.

I’d be against the existence of *any* protected group - the owner of the establishment should have the final say on who gets to enter and who doesn’t, regardless of whether other people consider that discriminatory or not...I don’t support discrimination on any basis and I’m against vaccine passports ideologically speaking. That being said, I recognise that the owner of the business has the authority in regards to who gets to enter and who doesn’t. It’s their property.

I take the above to mean that you believe it's virtuous to not impose a mandate (since you personally wouldn't have one) but also that mandates are permissible (others can still impose mandates if they want to).

In my view humans are obligated to behave rationally, so if the mandate is based on faulty reasoning then you're not permitted to have the mandate. Think of it as a rationality mandate which supersedes the vaccine mandate.

Also if a mandate entails force, and force entails obligation, then by permitting mandates you would be permitting that vaccines are obligatory, which is inconsistent with your personal decision to not have a mandate. An analogy might be allowing abortion in your state, but also allowing other states to illegalise it.

 

[masterofmoddz7]

why even have this debate. Just make it mandatory

you say "mandatory" now but lets see how you feel when your loved one drops dead. so before you judge people, empathize aka put yourself in someone else shoes. Misinformation leads to death and disinformation does too. know what u jab yourself with. Google "Marburg" you'll soon see see Virus' mutate. inform not enforce!!!

youFirst wave Zombie noob -_-

 

[SylverReZ]

People offering medical advice on the internet is always interesting to me.

Like when Americans think that drinking chemicals would cure COVID.

 

[NoobletCheese]

you say "mandatory" now but lets see how you feel when your loved one drops dead

The safety issue may not even be the main issue. The horror of 2021 was the revelation that most people want the establishment deciding what goes in their body. I didn't know most people were like this. I thought most people would prefer to make decisions for themselves. Instead I found that society is largely made up of psychopathic zealots who try to have you removed from society for not being a team player. We're dealing with some kind of condition of the human mind. There is some kind of "spiritual war" going on and I think Trump has something to do with it. I saw a lot of people become very angry and radicalised by Trump's presidency.

Like when Americans think that drinking chemicals would cure COVID.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory#Mandela_effect

 

[RetroGen]

The safety issue may not even be the main issue. The horror of 2021 was the revelation that most people want their bosses deciding what goes in their body. I didn't know most people were like this. I thought most people would prefer to make decisions for themselves. Instead I found that society is largely made up of psychopathic zealots who try to have you removed from society for being pro consent. We're dealing with some kind of condition of the human mind. There is some kind of "spiritual war" going on and I think Trump has something to do with it. I saw a lot of people become very angry and radicalised by Trump's presidency.

The people most radicalized are Trump's supporters... people who continue to support him regardless of the thousands of lies and dozens of felony indictments, and coincidentally also the people least likely to be vaccinated. You speak of rationality, yet avoid a vaccine which has been clinically shown to significantly reduce serious illness and death; bit difficult to reconcile how that is rational behavior. I get the consent angle, but that's a side issue from the rationality of accepting a vaccine that has been proven to mitigate risk.