Logic behind Christianity?

No? The logical thing to do is to be religiously unaffiliated or strongly atheist.
And if you're worried about being judged, click this.

Go to church and you will believe, (I recommend Catholic Mass on Sunday, but your choice there) Miracles do happen.

Please.

Can you be logical and believe in a given religion?
I don't think you can. There are contradictions everywhere and the fact that everything written down was done by the hands of man leads all information on the matter unreliable.

Can you be logical and believe in the possibility of a higher power?
I think that's entirely possible.
Logically speaking, until absolutely proven otherwise a possibility is still a possibility.
It's just as much a logical fallacy to dismiss the idea of a higher being just because it can't be proven with any current means.

Believing that there isn't a higher being of some sort with no proof is also blind faith.

Humans are blessed with curious minds. Don't close off an entire branch of possibilities just because it doesn't make sense to you.

[quote name='Ericthegreat' post='3769914' date='Jul 12 2011, 02:10 AM']Go to church and you will believe, (I recommend Catholic Mass on Sunday, but your choice there) Miracles do happen.

Please.[/quote]

I used to go to church every sunday. Sorry, no, Church does NOT make you believe. Only really proves that listening to them is kind of foolish.

@Proto You don't know that. So many people think Jesus' second coming will mark the apocalypse. And with the world the state it is now.....how do you know I'm NOT the second coming?

I think it's funny that this thread exists on a forum full of people who are deep into manga and anime and probably under 20.

[quote name='Zarcon' post='3769925' date='Jul 12 2011, 02:40 AM']Humans are blessed with curious minds. Don't close off an entire branch of possibilities just because it doesn't make sense to you.[/quote]
Really good post.
Check out this link
http://www.divinerevelations.info/

[quote name='kthnxshwn' post='3769935' date='Jul 12 2011, 04:00 PM']I think it's funny that this thread exists on a forum full of people who are deep into manga and anime and probably under 20.[/quote]
I don't think a lot of people in that thread are under 20. You are making invalid assumptions, you probably didn't even read the thread, there are some posts that make a lot of sense.
(#34th time I say it) the average age on the forum is 23.something

[quote name='VashTS' post='3767982' date='Jul 11 2011, 05:36 AM']my son is not going to be taught about religion. if he chooses to stray that way he can learn everything on his own, i will take no part.[/quote]

Apologies if I misinterpreted this and you in fact meant compelled/encouraged to follow a religion or three but to know nothing of them is not something many can sit behind- religions are historically, legally and from the points of view of several of the psychology/sociology type sciences quite important.


[quote name='Foxi4' post='3767985' date='Jul 11 2011, 05:39 AM']I'm a logical thinker and I'm also a Christian, those two things don't really cross eachother's paths. Logic and Religion should be kept separately - God's ways cannot be explained by simple human logic, his design cannot be described with letters or digits. There is a greater pattern going on in the world, something we cannot comperhend, just believe it.

Obviously, science unveils some mysteries, but do notice that explaining one thing creates two questions. I do believe that we'll never answer the questions like "what's the point of life" etc. - they're too subjective, too vague, and that's why "religion" was created.

The point of being religious is to believe in a supreme being - the world works according to too strict rules to be a coincidence in my opinion. It was "meant" to work as it does and left for us to keep and maintain. It's not supposed to have sense, it's supposed to be a moral framework of your life.

Take bible for example - a set of stories that are more or less sensical, mostly fiction though. However, following them does point towards what's "evil" and what's "good", and that was the idea behind creating it and editing it over and over.

Religion is not composed of "facts". That's what science is for. Religion is a set of vague theories that are open for interpretation. These are just things *you* believe in, the way *you* comperhend them. Truth to be told, *you* create your own version of "religion", whichever one you choose, since as a human being, you interpret things in a specific, one-of-a-kind way... and this is a good thing, really.[/quote]

There is a concept known as "god of the gaps" which should be mentioned alongside this. I see you addressed it in part in some of the later posts but thought I should mention it.

Likewise "supreme being" might not be a great definition- at various points in time natural forces themselves have been deified alongside concepts like Buddhism.

Take bible for example - a set of stories that are more or less sensical, mostly fiction though. However, following them does point towards what's "evil" and what's "good", and that was the idea behind creating it and editing it over and over.

Click to expand...

Ouch. As something of an aspiring writer, I take affront at this sentiment. Fiction is a form of escapism, not a guide for anyone. It's true, some works of fiction do indeed give out small facets of good or bad [thus protagonists and antagonists/conflict etc] but fiction is just that - fiction.

Please do not tell me that the bible is fiction. It does not fly - with me or with the people who [continually deny that they] supposedly created it. It's almost unfair to have something so reverently "holy" be called fiction - it's almost insulting. Again, you can't have things both ways, without taking the burden of either. Either the bible is God's words/our moral compass or it's fiction, and nothing other than fiction.

Click to expand...

Hmm.
"In days of old when knights were bold there lived two little boys. Billy took Gino's apple thus depriving Gino of his apple and his lunch. Without lunch Gino was unable to concentrate in the afternoon which impacted his day and possibly the ones after that."

One total work of fiction and several possible inferences, moral and otherwise, from it. Going further there have been authors using fiction (indeed entire books) to explore countless philosophies and modifications to existing ones.

Sticking with the bible them and related concepts the terms literalism and liberalism both in this case pertaining to methods of interpreting the bible (or I guess any other holy work). For the ultra quick version perhaps

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzEs2nj7iZM[/youtube]


[quote name='impizkit' post='3768972' date='Jul 11 2011, 07:26 PM'][quote name='Blaze163' post='3767146' date='Jul 10 2011, 01:53 PM']Hell, I've been technically dead for a few minutes and I have a hazy recollection of a voice (in case you're wondering, a female voice I didn't recognise, very soft sounding, telling me my time wasn't up yet and that I still had a task to attend to, and I do recall the faint smell of flowers), but even I refuse to place my faith in something that cannot be proven to exist. Even if there IS an afterlife, I'll deal with it when I get there. Simple fact is that I don't know for sure that there is anything else waiting for me at the end of it all. I DO know that I'm alive now. I'd rather worry about something real than something that could just be a load of old bollocks.[/quote]

You experienced this and still dont believe? That is something. I have had several experiences where I should have died, no explanation why I didn't accept it wasn't my time and God wanted me to live. If I wasn't a strong believer before(I was) then my close encounters strengthened my belief. And I dont believe if religion or follow a religion. I believe that the bible is telling truths, or stories to explain the truth. There is a God, as far as Im concerned.
[/quote]

DMT - it is wonderful stuff and produced by a dying brain.

[quote name='Wolvenreign' post='3769036' date='Jul 11 2011, 08:12 PM'][quote name='impizkit' post='3769010' date='Jul 11 2011, 07:52 PM']I wont ignore you Wolvenreign, it almost sounds like you are saying anyone that believes cannot be intelligent. That is pure ignorance. Everyone is able to have their own views and beliefs, but do not try to say that everyone that believes in God or religion is not of the same intellect as those that do not believe. You think that no scientists believe in God. Science and God can both exist. If not, explain why? We could go round and round all day. I just dont want you saying we believers are not as smart as those of you that dont.[/quote]

You did not read it properly.

What I said was that science is the antithesis of faith. A scientist happens to be one that practices science, and any intelligent person had become intelligent through scientific reasoning of their environment. Intelligence is, by definition, the ability to sort what is from what is not.

It is entirely possible, however, for someone intelligent and/or scientific to...shall we say...overlook aspects of reality which are already covered or predefined by their faith. There are some parts of their worldview which they they can place a foundation on, and never do they dare to undermine that foundation. However, if the foundation is false, what good is it? It does not help to determine the truth. Of course, that's IF the foundation is false.

Now, what is the only way to determine whether or not the foundation is false? Well, the only tools we have are examination, experimentation, and a generally scientific, methodical approach. Once again, this assumes you are willing to do so.

What I'm getting at here is that you can't assume something and still call it scientific. Scientists and generally intelligent people sacrifice curiosity and science when they do so. So are you less intelligent when you have faith? Maybe, I don't have the raw answer to that. What you are is less scientific, because you willingly blind a small, but important part of yourself.

It is also true, however, that you entirely missed the whole point of that writing. My intent there was to prove a vital contradiction between the writings of the bible and the reality of the human race.
[/quote]

How much stock I place in the following statement I will leave open to debate but "perhaps instead it is a vindication of the scientific method- a proper application of it can be pulled by anybody as long as they have the grounding of what came before it in place".

[quote name='Foxi4' post='3769071' date='Jul 11 2011, 08:36 PM']Science reffers to the rules of the world that are entirely explainable, factual events. Religion is for abstract ideas, like the existence of the soul or the afterlife. You can't "extract" a soul but you can't prove it's not there either, you can't scientifically prove me wrong saying there is no heaven, seeing that there is an infinite ammount of parallel universes, you can't prove that conciousness ends the moment you die - nobody died and returned to tell the tale yet, except Jesus and Lazarus, I suppose XP.

This is why Science should only be applied to the natural world while Religion should be applied to the spiritual plane of existence.

Sorry for "not replying" earlier, I was sort of occupied with different discussions.[/quote]

No abstract ideas in science? I would argue until such time as we reach a unified theory of physics (and enough data to run it) science is nothing but abstract ideas.
Entropy- energy distribution over a substance is random but scaled up enough it can be plugged into things to make free energy and the foundation chemistry.
Radiation- probably of decay (although decay can be induced natural decay which most are concerned with is totally random) scaled up enough means a predictable amount of radiation for a given time period.
Most of quantum physics
Materials science- plastics, metals, ceramics all have concepts entirely down to chance (polymer length- see of the free radical polymerisation, dislocation theory for metals, Griffith's crack theory or better some of the industrial ceramics concepts) but scaled up they allow us to build things that work.
Large fields of mathematics have at least initially been entirely abstract and others are modified to this day to remove the limitations of abstraction (although not all that recent the history of imaginary and complex numbers are a great example).
Psychology- all brains are unique but structures, chemicals and concepts means a good guess can be made and to what will happen, why something happened and such.
I could go on but I have hopefully made my point.

[quote name='Foxi4' post='3769139' date='Jul 11 2011, 09:09 PM']It should not be applied to things we cannot YET explain, it's to be applied to things that we will NEVER explain. There's a difference.

Each "we don't know yet" is followed by theories, and those theories are like beliefs. They're not proven right or wrong yet, their followers just choose to find them more probable than others until further notice.[/quote]


Despite my misgivings in assuming that there are unexplainable things I see this a minor iteration on the initial postulation- "it's to be applied to things that we will NEVER explain" is not all that different to things we can not presently explain as things can surely quite happily move from the unexplainable group to the explainable group as time drags on.


I guess I am now ending the post and that video earlier put me in the mood for some more George Carlin so I will

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPOfurmrjxo[/youtube]

[quote name='shinkukage09' post='3769926' date='Jul 12 2011, 08:43 AM']@Proto You don't know that. So many people think Jesus' second coming will mark the apocalypse. And with the world the state it is now.....how do you know I'm NOT the second coming?[/quote]
(Yes I do.)

He exchanged his perfect human existence to counteract the one Adam lost. Once he's given it away, he can't take it back again without invalidating that. Trust me, he's not coming back as a human.

[quote name='Ericthegreat' post='3769914' date='Jul 12 2011, 03:10 AM']Go to church and you will believe, (I recommend Catholic Mass on Sunday, but your choice there) Miracles do happen.

Please.[/quote]
Going to Church doesn't make a believer nor does it make someone of that religion.
I used to go to Church when I was a kid and honestly I would have to say it didn't quite make a believer out of me.

[quote name='A Gay Little Catboy' post='3770400' date='Jul 12 2011, 10:42 AM'][quote name='Ericthegreat' post='3769914' date='Jul 12 2011, 03:10 AM']Go to church and you will believe, (I recommend Catholic Mass on Sunday, but your choice there) Miracles do happen.

Please.[/quote]
Going to Church doesn't make a believer nor does it make someone of that religion.
I used to go to Church when I was a kid and honestly I would have to say it didn't quite make a believer out of me.
[/quote]


No, not everybody who walks into a church will be "filled by the spirit" but some will.
I think Ericthegreat wants more people to have that opportunity.

I hate to tell you but Catholic Church do not follow bible and ten commandments at all.

Anyway, for an example about ten commandments for idols:

http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/romanc...mmandments.html

Scroll down to compare. They do not follow the bible at all. I was Catholic until I leave them and I follow the bible from now on only and not the churches. Many Catholic priests , nuns, pope and bishops are false prophets and hypocrites . A wolf in the sheep. Scary!

Without checking the link, RockmanForte does bring up a good point.

Even the Pope's mitre is derived (i.e. has design elements) from Dagon; a Philistine deity which as I recall was half-fish.


(I'm not intending to offend any Catholics here, of course)

EDIT: @ProtoKun7, thank you.

I dont mean to offend any Catholics here for I was Catholic too until I found the truth in the bible more than churches can admitted because they dont bother to discussed deeply about the bible more than you think but I hope those Catholics here can read it and think twice about it. I also added this:

Catholic worship on Sundays, Muslim worship on Fridays, and Jewish worship on Saturdays. Those didnt existed in the bible. WARNING: Those are just man-made rules according to Matthew 12:9-14 as proof.

[quote name='Foxi4' post='3769842' date='Jul 12 2011, 06:31 AM']There are certain signs that will preceed the Second Comming. Not only that, you should probably be a bit more modest if you want to impersonate the Christ. Sorry lad/lady, but as of now, you're full of "it".[/quote]

One could easily argue that all the signs preceding the Second Coming have happened. Aside from the chap himself popping up what else do you feel hasn't happened out of those prophesied precursors?

[quote name='Vulpes Abnocto' post='3770411' date='Jul 12 2011, 07:47 AM'][quote name='A Gay Little Catboy' post='3770400' date='Jul 12 2011, 10:42 AM'][quote name='Ericthegreat' post='3769914' date='Jul 12 2011, 03:10 AM']Go to church and you will believe, (I recommend Catholic Mass on Sunday, but your choice there) Miracles do happen.

Please.[/quote]
Going to Church doesn't make a believer nor does it make someone of that religion.
I used to go to Church when I was a kid and honestly I would have to say it didn't quite make a believer out of me.
[/quote]


No, not everybody who walks into a church will be "filled by the spirit" but some will.
[/quote]
Well, that's a cruel thing for God to do.


@Wolvenreign: I read it, and I agree, pretty much (as I said it in a somewhat meaner way than you did). I think you're a little too optimistic on people and science (people use science for wrongdoing too).

[quote name='Uncle FEFL' post='3770465' date='Jul 12 2011, 11:21 AM']Well, that's a cruel thing for God to do.[/quote]

You could easily say that many aspects of our world are cruel.
but the door of the church isn't a portal of plenary indulgence. (most of the time)
Not every person who walks through it will be automatically converted.
but all who enter have the opportunity to accept that grace.

It's a matter of free will.

(Heh, listen to me. I sound like I never left the Fold)

[quote name='Ericthegreat' post='3769914' date='Jul 12 2011, 08:10 AM']Go to church and you will believe, (I recommend Catholic Mass on Sunday, but your choice there) Miracles do happen.

Please.[/quote]

Please let me know of a single one that hasn't being proven to at best be explainable by natural means or at worst a massive con.

And no, the ones that have no proof of ever happening at all don't count.

[quote name='Vulpes Abnocto' post='3770477' date='Jul 12 2011, 04:27 PM']It's a matter of free will.[/quote]

Or else.

[quote name='RockmanForte' post='3770430' date='Jul 12 2011, 10:56 AM']EDIT: @ProtoKun7, thank you.

I dont mean to offend any Catholics here for I was Catholic too until I found the truth in the bible more than churches can admitted because they dont bother to discussed deeply about the bible more than you think but I hope those Catholics here can read it and think twice about it. I also added this:

Catholic worship on Sundays, Muslim worship on Fridays, and Jewish worship on Saturdays. Those didnt existed in the bible. WARNING: Those are just man-made rules according to Matthew 12:9-14 as proof.[/quote]
Muslims worship every day. You know, daily prayers and whatnot. Friday is just a day for Muslims to assemble with other Muslims to do a group prayer as a part of the community.

[quote name='Vulpes Abnocto' post='3770477' date='Jul 12 2011, 04:27 PM']It's a matter of free will.

Click to expand...

Or else.
[/quote]
No, I'm pretty sure accepting a religion is a matter of free will.

[quote name='cwstjdenobs' post='3770550' date='Jul 12 2011, 05:20 PM']Please let me know of a single one that hasn't being proven to at best be explainable by natural means or at worst a massive con.

And no, the ones that have no proof of ever happening at all don't count.[/quote]

I'd be both surprised and mildly pleased to see a Headline that read - "Jean Paul II's Beautification Miracle - A MASSIVE CON!" although somehow i don't think it'd happen. It seems for religion most of us just don't want to fight over common sense issues, as there's no talking around the people who have the belief option. We just ignore it and get on with them.