Gaming MGS disappointing ?

[Pippin666]

I feel this MGS is one of those game want to say; "The 3DS is capable of running PS2 games", simple as that for me right now.

Pip'

 

[machomuu]

Watched the movie again just to be certain -- this looks like a first gen PSP game. And the framerate looks to be about 15fps.

The graphics are terrible.

I'd love to see that first gen PSP game you're referring to. I've not been able to find one that looks this good. Even with a worse framerate and muddier textures than the original on PS2, this still looks better than Peace Walker (one of the best looking PSP games).

QUOTE(brandonspikes @ Jul 9 2011, 06:12 PM) Trailers =/= real FPS.

The game will look okay and run at 30 fps.

The game runs anywhere between 15 and 30 frames per second, the trailer is accurate in this case. Off screen footage from E3 showed some serious framerate drops. You can tell there's serious drops when the actual game runs choppier than the video itself. Most of the framerate drops seem to happen during cutscenes for some reason. I've noticed fewer drops during actual gameplay.

The game isn't due out until the end of the year. So there's still plenty of time for optimizations. I've seen such improvements happen over a relatively short time to other games. Too early to judge the final game now. It's still inevitably going to end up as a lazy port. My guess is that Konami decided to just quick port it for kicks since they're also releasing the game in HD. No reason to put any effort into it (even though the 3DS is factually capable of so much more).

Can I has link?

Link to what?

 

[granville]

Can I has link?
Link to the footage i'm talking about? Sure, here's the clearest i can find-

Notice that youtube videos are capped at about 25-30 frames per second (i don't know the exact amount, but this particular video is running at about that rate). Also notice how even though the youtube fps cap allows that much (and that this video is displaying at such a rate), the actual game displayed on the 3DS here is far choppier than the surroundings outside of the game screen. If the video recording itself were responsible for the performance drops, the entire recording would be going at the slower framerate. As it is though, only the game itself drops. The real world around it remains smooth.

Gameplay is affected by these drops, but most notably are the cutscenes, which run very choppily. Particularly, the cutscene that plays at 1:44 in the video above shows some severe framerate drops.

I'll also note that at least one or two impressions i've read have confirmed even beyond the video evidence that the game suffers framerate issues. Nintendo Everything in particular went hands-on with the game and cited in their preview that the game suffered from severe performance issues (their preview overall was quite scathing)-
http://nintendoeverything.com/66799/

As i said though, it's too early to tell how the final game will turn out. It's not scheduled to release until the end of the year. All the issues could easily be fixed by that time if they wanted. I've seen games fixed up before with worse problems, so it won't do to complain until the final game is released.

 

[Guild McCommunist]

I was really disappointed. Seeing that MGS3 was coming to the 3DS in what seemed like a remade form was really my selling point for the system. I know I've criticized the system for remakes but I was expecting this one to be REALLY different. A huge graphical revamp, maybe incorporate some new elements from other games, fix any issues MGS3 had, all that. But instead it came off as a half-assed port with some touch screen and gyro controls and that's about it. On one hand you get the touchscreen to help fix any of the layout issues the original had. One the other hand, it's lacking a second analog stick (I think Subsistence used this for improved camera controls), L2/R2, and there's nothing new about it. MGS3 is also a game you don't want to be portable. It's something you'll need to sit down for hours and play. It's very cutscene based and something you need to get into.

Plus with the MGS HD Collection coming out for either less, the same price, or slightly more, this is an absolutely retarded purchase. Why buy this game for $40 when you can buy it, MGS3, and Peace Walker, all with some graphical enhancements (and Peace Walker getting a second analog stick and the like), for roughly the same price? Saying it's in THREEEEEE DEEEE and has some extra control schemes isn't worth it. EDIT: Or you can just buy MGS3 used for like $10.

I feel this MGS is one of those game want to say; "The 3DS is capable of running PS2 games", simple as that for me right now.

Pip'

The PSP was able to run games of equal graphical level (hell, I'd say even better in some areas) than the PS2.

EDIT: I had constantly dropping enthusiasm for the 3DS but once they showed this game off it basically killed the system for me. Third party games were already getting a bleak outlook and I don't want another "first party game player".

 

[granville]

I feel this MGS is one of those game want to say; "The 3DS is capable of running PS2 games", simple as that for me right now.

Pip'

The PSP was able to run games of equal graphical level (hell, I'd say even better in some areas) than the PS2.

The issue here is that the 3DS is most definitely not only able to run PS2 games, but outperform it in pretty much every way. It is cited as being on par with Wii by even High Voltage (among others). It also support visual effects that the PS2 can't do (normal maps for instance). Even Kojima said in an old audio interview that the 3DS was much stronger than PS2 (in reference to his early concepts for this remake, apparently before Konami decided to half ass it i assume against his wishes). So yeah, if this is their attempt to say 3DS can run PS2 games, they failed miserably and we don't need such proof (there are far more impressive 3DS games out there).

Though to be clear, while the PSP can run PS2 games, it cannot run them as well as the PS2 could, let alone better. PS2 is still more powerful and capable of superior visuals. The PS2's best looking games cannot be replicated on the PSP without lots of compromises. For all its flaws, i'd still like to see PSP run MGS3 intact with no downgrades besides resolution. Peace Walker looks nice, but it still can't compete with MGS3. PSP has had its power tapped by now, and it still isn't outputting visuals that can come up to PS2 standards. Somewhat close in some cases, but PS2 still kicks its ass.

This game was never a system seller for me. I don't count on remakes to sway me. The system sellers are upcoming games like Mario 3D, Kid Icarus, Luigi's Mansion 2, Megaman Legends 3, Kingdom Hearts 3D, Resident Evil Revelations, etc. The only remake i've given credit to is Ocarina of Time. And that's because it IMPROVED the original game which i've never even played (outside of maybe 5 minutes in a store demo).

 

[Amrulez]

I think it would be like the ocarina of time dilemma, where people didnt want to pay for the same game again.

OOT had its graphics improved compared to the original. For MGS I think graphics will even be slightly worse than the PS2 version.

I sincerely doubt that

 

[granville]

I sincerely doubt that

You might want to reconsider that doubt. Thus far, the game is a strait port of the original, though with a slower framerate and lower resolution textures. The only improvement was during the intro in the trailer where Snake is skydiving. His jumpsuit has a sort of shine to it that is reacting from a light source (use of the 3DS' superior shader technology). Unless the game changes by the time of release, it will overall end up looking slightly worse. Though it is fully plausible that the game is unfinished and the final will end up looking much better.

 

[KingVamp]

EDIT: I had constantly dropping enthusiasm for the 3DS but once they showed this game off it basically killed the system for me. Third party games were already getting a bleak outlook and I don't want another "first party game player".

Um, no you just trying so hard to hate on the 3ds. I know you don't like 3d or should I say "THREEEEEE DEEEE",but it has good support. It takes time to make
more good games. I didn't want them rushing and there are no reasons for them to rush.


I look forward to Dr. Lautrec & the Forgotten Knights,Tekken, or any other game.

Tho they need to stop holding back games in Japan. >.>

 

[Lucifer666]

Nintendo, the games released this year suck.
nuff said.
I was allowed to get any game I wanted for my 3DS today.
I couldn't decide. Not cause many are good, cause none is actually worth at the moment.
What would be TOTALLY cool is SM 3DS, LM 2, Paper Mario 3DS and Mario Kart 3DS.
Why the hell is Luigi's Mansion 2 coming in 2012? I have no idea.

 

[rad140]

Nintendo, the games released this year suck.
nuff said.
I was allowed to get any game I wanted for my 3DS today.
I couldn't decide. Not cause many are good, cause none is actually worth at the moment.
What would be TOTALLY cool is SM 3DS, LM 2, Paper Mario 3DS and Mario Kart 3DS.
Why the hell is Luigi's Mansion 2 coming in 2012? I have no idea.

Probably because it's still in development. I'd rather wait a few more months and have a better game than having it rushed for 2011 and ending up with a bad one.
Too bad MGS isn't following the same idea here...

I bought OoT because I never owned a N64 or played the original, so the $40 for a remake argument was moot for me.

I'm rather disappointed with both Snake Eater 3D and the MGS HD Collection. Snake Eater 3D looks like it's going to be a lazy port (ala Splinter Cell 3D) instead of the awesome remake The Naked Sample looked like it was going to be (ala OoT 3D). When I can get Subsistence for the PS2 for $10, which will obviously be a better game overall, I can't see myself shelling out $40 for a lazy port with 3D.

Good for Konami allowing people to play MGS 2 and 3 (even though it's an obvious cash grab), but they are still PS2 games... they will look better, but not mind-blowing better. I've seen footage of Peace Walker "HD" but it just looks an uprezed PS2 game. A lot of the textures look fairly low quality. I know it's a PSP game, but still.
I've played MGS2, own Peace Walker and can get MGS3 for $10, so I don't see the point in buying the HD collection either.

 

[Guild McCommunist]

EDIT: I had constantly dropping enthusiasm for the 3DS but once they showed this game off it basically killed the system for me. Third party games were already getting a bleak outlook and I don't want another "first party game player".

Um, no you just trying so hard to hate on the 3ds. I know you don't like 3d or should I say "THREEEEEE DEEEE",but it has good support. It takes time to make
more good games. I didn't want them rushing and there are no reasons for them to rush.


I look forward to Dr. Lautrec & the Forgotten Knights,Tekken, or any other game.

Tho they need to stop holding back games in Japan. >.>

Dr. Lautrec is just a Layton rip-off. Not my type of game.

Tekken is probably my least favorite "popular" 3D fighter outside of Dead or Alive. Plus there's already two excellent PSP games.

So far we've had, for third party games, mostly ports or remakes that are inferior to their console versions. Saying "it's portable" does not excuse a higher price tag for less content.

 

[Slyakin]

EDIT: I had constantly dropping enthusiasm for the 3DS but once they showed this game off it basically killed the system for me. Third party games were already getting a bleak outlook and I don't want another "first party game player".

Um, no you just trying so hard to hate on the 3ds. I know you don't like 3d or should I say "THREEEEEE DEEEE",but it has good support. It takes time to make
more good games. I didn't want them rushing and there are no reasons for them to rush.


I look forward to Dr. Lautrec & the Forgotten Knights,Tekken, or any other game.

Tho they need to stop holding back games in Japan. >.>

Dr. Lautrec is just a Layton rip-off. Not my type of game.

Tekken is probably my least favorite "popular" 3D fighter outside of Dead or Alive. Plus there's already two excellent PSP games.

So far we've had, for third party games, mostly ports or remakes that are inferior to their console versions. Saying "it's portable" does not excuse a higher price tag for less content.

Dr. Lautrec is an RPG with detective elements, is it not?

I think I remember seeing pictures of a battle system in there...

 

[Guild McCommunist]

Dr. Lautrec is an RPG with detective elements, is it not?

I think I remember seeing pictures of a battle system in there...

It came off as a Layton rip-off, my bad.

So it's just Nostalgia-meets-Layton.

 

[Slyakin]

Yeah, I totally agree. I was pretty shocked when I realized how similar the games were.

Are there patents for game design?

 

[rad140]

Yeah, I totally agree. I was pretty shocked when I realized how similar the games were.

Are there patents for game design?

I don't think so. Patents are usually for inventions, devices, physical things, etc.
There is copyright though.

And it's not like this is the first time something like this has happened either.

Back on topic, is there anyone who is going to buy MGS 3D/HD Collection if they've already played the originals? I'm interested to know.

 

[Avalyn]

Yeah, I totally agree. I was pretty shocked when I realized how similar the games were.

Are there patents for game design?

No, there is not. If there was, there would be lawsuits up THE ASS!!! (Gameloft, I am looking at you!)

 

[Deleted User]

Can I has link?
Link to the footage i'm talking about? Sure, here's the clearest i can find-

Eww, it looks horrible.

 

[heartgold]

I feel this MGS is one of those game want to say; "The 3DS is capable of running PS2 games", simple as that for me right now.

Pip'

The PSP was able to run games of equal graphical level (hell, I'd say even better in some areas) than the PS2.

The issue here is that the 3DS is most definitely not only able to run PS2 games, but outperform it in pretty much every way. It is cited as being on par with Wii by even High Voltage (among others). It also support visual effects that the PS2 can't do (normal maps for instance). Even Kojima said in an old audio interview that the 3DS was much stronger than PS2 (in reference to his early concepts for this remake, apparently before Konami decided to half ass it i assume against his wishes). So yeah, if this is their attempt to say 3DS can run PS2 games, they failed miserably and we don't need such proof (there are far more impressive 3DS games out there).

3DS’s polygon count is rather low so it hampers the visuals. By the far the most impressive game looks to be RE: Revelations, where do you game draw the line, around wii level or beyond? Visually speaking

 

[Ssx9]

I just want some guys to remember that Kojima is not working on this game. All he did was assist the team for the Tech demo (2010).

I still have hopes for this game, though. I'm also getting MGS HD Collection (But it's because I need PW, never played it.)

If you have MGS3 or is getting the HD Collection, I'd recomend you not to get this game, unless you want a portable version.

Oh, small edit. don't forget that were dumped had the size of a DS game, this one is using a 4GB cartridge.

 

[granville]

3DS’s polygon count is rather low so it hampers the visuals. By the far the most impressive game looks to be RE: Revelations, where do you game draw the line, around wii level or beyond? Visually speaking
The 3DS' exact polygon count is actually unknown due to the fact that the exact model of the GPU was never revealed. We know 3DS uses a Pica200 gpu, which isn't very helpful information when it's a SERIES of gpu's, not a single model. The weakest first generation pica200's could render around 15mil polygons per second @4k resolution. Assuming the worst model is used just for argument sake and a worst case scenario, that's considerably greater geometry than the PS2 could do at its peak. PS2 is realistically only capable of supporting around 5-6 million polygons per second in a real game scenario (Sony benchmarked it at ~60million, but this number was actually unattainable outside of texture-less flat shaded polygons without lighting). And back to the 15 million benchmark from the Pica200, that's also being rendered at around 4k resolution. Lower the resolution to the 3DS' physical 800x240 (yes i know it's only 400x240 effectively, 3D effect uses more) + 320x240 (lower screen being used for mostly 2D assets). With the lower resolution needed, the polygon performance (and overall gpu performance) actually increases substantially.

Now then you get to the fact that there are much stronger Pica200 models. There was a model showcased in a 2008 pamphlet capable of rendering more than twice the polygons per second than the oldest model (40 million instead of 15 million, and being able to render more at a far lower clock speed). This was on a newer chip that was built on superior architecture and was more energy efficient. Now we don't know WHICH Pica200 model is being used in the 3DS, but as there exists newer more efficient models, it's plausible Nintendo went with one of the more recent ones (or a customized one). At any rate, even given a worse case scenario with the weakest Pica chip, the 3DS is capable of rendering more polygons per second than the PS2 if properly pushed.

The issue here lies solely with developers unwilling to put in an effort. This happens often in the early life cycle of a system, but it's still laziness overall. The 3DS has been compared by many developers as closer to Wii in power. Not unsubstantiated either, High Voltage managed to port their Conduit engine to 3DS, with little effort according to them and no compromises either. As it stands, you'll likely slowly see more developers put more effort into pushing the system in the future. We're seeing glimpses of a few developers who already are trying.

QUOTE(Ssx9 @ Jul 10 2011, 01:27 PM) I just want some guys to remember that Kojima is not working on this game. All he did was assist the team for the Tech demo (2010).

I figure he has nothing to do with it. He attested to the power of the 3DS and put a lot of effort into that demo. It's likely either Konami booted him off and decided to hand it off to their lesser developers or he just wanted to work on other things. Either way though, the 3DS can do better by his own words.