Gaming FFXIII: what did(n't) you like about it?

[Foxi4]

that's the very start. in the first hour of gameplay then they dump onto you all the information about NORA, the fal'cie, sanctum, pulse, etc etc.

Actually they don't. Most of the information is in the collectible logs which you have to read to even know what's going on. None of the characters ever explain what a fal'cie even is - all we know is that they pick people and make them l'cie, l'cie being branded people who need to fulfil some sort of purpose to turn into a crystal instead of turning into a mecha zombie. They're boned either way, so from the start they have no reason whatsoever to find out what their focus is - they're going to die anyways. Frankly, they have all the reasons not to look for their focus and instead try to find a way to remove the brand. The game attempts to pretend that you're an inhabitant of the world and already know these things, but you're not - a part of good storytelling is to provide exposition that doesn't seem out of context but at the same time explains the premise to the audience.

 

[dimmidice]

Actually they don't. Most of the information is in the collectible logs which you have to read to even know what's going on. None of the characters ever explain what a fal'cie is - all we know is that they pick people and make them l'cie, l'cie being branded people who need to fulfil some sort of purpose to turn into a crystal instead of turning into a mecha zombie. They're boned either way, so from the start they have no reason whatsoever to find out what their focus is - they're going to die anyways. Frankly, they have all the reasons not to look for their focus and instead try to find a way to remove the brand.

actually the game does mention what a fal'cie is. though briefly. a godlike being who is not understandable to humans and that they rule over the government and hold up cocoon. 's in a cutscene.

That's the key phrase right there, I think.

Think of Star Wars - the plot would be a mess if "A New Hope" dropped everything about the Empire, the rebellion, the force and Jedi in the first scene. Instead, it gives you everything you need to know to start off - there's an evil empire, a ragtag rebellion, and a princess in peril. That's just about it. Those other, important details are filled in later as the plot progresses and develops.

ff13's plot never really thickens much when you play the game. the plot pretty much only happens at the start of the game and nearing the ending.
the center is just a bunch of angst and flashbacks about the most boring of character backgrounds. oh and whiny people. and tutorials.

 

[Hyro-Sama]

We're seriously beating a dead horse at this point. No point in having this discussion over and over again if the same people are just going to post the same shit.

 

[Black-Ice]

Correct me if I'm wrong,

ok i'll try

FFXIII dumps you into a scene with the main characters (maybe? We don't know who they are yet)

Ummm, Yeah I guess

in a train with a bunch of prisoners (maybe? It's not established at that point)

Nope it isnt IIRC. But you find out later, everything is sorta fed to you in a fragmented fashion which creates either a desire to find out more or confusion and anger for those who want a linear approach to the story (ironically the ones who also complain at the linearity of the gameplay)

who then fight some soldiers (for some reason?) to get off the train (why?) and free the people who are wearing the stupid glowing robes (who are they?).

Yeah, I guess. Another "you find out as you progress thing. Other games have done similar before.=

From the very first minute you have no f*cking clue what's going on, who are the characters, what's their motivation and who are they fighting. What you do know is that you can shoot massive armored mechs into submission using an assault rifle and pistols, which defeats the purpose of having massive mechs in the first place.

You find their motives as you progress through the game, I kinda liked that. And their motives were easy enough to grasp for me. Also things adapted to change their initial motives as it progress rather than just "save the princess - game done"


Did I do well?

We're seriously beating a dead horse at this point. No point in having this discussion over and over again if the same people are just going to post the same shit.

I do agree. But this forum does that a lot.
Its not like you can stop people having redundant-repetitive conversations i guess[/quote]

 

[Foxi4]

actually the game does mention what a fal'cie is. though briefly. a godlike being who is not understandable to humans and that they rule over the government and hold up cocoon. 's in a cutscene.

That's another thing. The player assumes that the fal'cie are some godlike creatures (it's not *explicitly* explained what they are, that can be found in the logs) who cannot be understood by mere humans, hence they never explain people's focuses... and then the big bad turns out to be a fal'cie himself and talks to the main characters. Explain to me why he can't just tell them what their focus is? Is it his godlike plan to expect them to do the right thing without actually giving them an objective? Because that's a terribly inefficient plan.

Did I do well?

You did terribly.

Character motivation can change over time, but you need some motivation from the start. If I have to spend 20+ hours to find out what the f*ck my objective is, I have no motivation to play the game whatsoever. The same goes for Xenoblade Yawnicles - if it takes 40 hours for the game to start being fun, it's a waste of my time. It doesn't matter what happens after those 40 hours, I still wasted 40 hours of my time. I don't care that the game is fun later, why can't it be fun now?

 

[dimmidice]

That's another thing. The player assumes that the fal'cie are some godlike creatures (it's not *explicitly* explained what they are, that can be found in the logs) who cannot be understood by mere humans, hence they never explain people's focuses... and then the big bad turns out to be a fal'cie himself and talks to the main characters. Explain to me why he can't just tell them what their focus is? Is it his godlike plan to expect them to do the right thing without actually giving them an objective? Because that's a terribly inefficient plan.

can't say too much about that actually. i quit the game in chapter 7 or so. then i read up on the rest of the story in 13-2's codec because i wanted to play that game. from what i read it was pretty half-assed.

thankfully 13-2 did turn out be somewhat good. eventhough the story was just as bad, if not worse. at least you had freedom and sidequests, and exploration.

i still boggles my mind how much i loathe FF13. i've played every single final fantasy from the main series (except the mmos)
i've liked every single one (yes even X-2), loved many of them (7,8,9,10,12 most of all) but this one i just could not keep playing because it was that bad. the gameplay bored me, the story was confusing and not interesting, and i felt trapped constantly.

also from typing all of this up i just realized my #1 grievance with this game.

it's a final fantasy game. the whole time i played i not ONCE encountered a town or village, not ONCE could i talk to a NPC. (except for the main characters occasionally)
final fantasy games always have a big world to explore, sidequests to do, NPCs to interact with, actual shops to buy from.

this had none of that. IMO it's by FAR the worst FF i've ever played. even one of the worst RPGs i've ever played.


sorry for the ranting~

 

[Ace Overclocked]

Actually they don't. Most of the information is in the collectible logs which you have to read to even know what's going on. None of the characters ever explain what a fal'cie even is - all we know is that they pick people and make them l'cie, l'cie being branded people who need to fulfil some sort of purpose to turn into a crystal instead of turning into a mecha zombie. They're boned either way, so from the start they have no reason whatsoever to find out what their focus is - they're going to die anyways. Frankly, they have all the reasons not to look for their focus and instead try to find a way to remove the brand. The game attempts to pretend that you're an inhabitant of the world and already know these things, but you're not - a part of good storytelling is to provide exposition that doesn't seem out of context but at the same time explains the premise to the audience.

No, did you even play the game through?
I never bothered to read a damn datalog and understood the story pefectly, everything is explained at some point in the story, can't expect everything to rush in at the beginning can you?

can't say too much about that actually. i quit the game in chapter 7 or so. then i read up on the rest of the story in 13-2's codec because i wanted to play that game. from what i read it was pretty half-assed.

thankfully 13-2 did turn out be somewhat good. eventhough the story was just as bad, if not worse. at least you had freedom and sidequests, and exploration.

i still boggles my mind how much i loathe FF13. i've played every single final fantasy from the main series (except the mmos)
i've liked every single one (yes even X-2), loved many of them (7,8,9,10,12 most of all) but this one i just could not keep playing because it was that bad. the gameplay bored me, the story was confusing and not interesting, and i felt trapped constantly.

also from typing all of this up i just realized my #1 grievance with this game.

it's a final fantasy game. the whole time i played i not ONCE encountered a town or village, not ONCE could i talk to a NPC. (except for the main characters occasionally)
final fantasy games always have a big world to explore, sidequests to do, NPCs to interact with, actual shops to buy from.

this had none of that. IMO it's by FAR the worst FF i've ever played. even one of the worst RPGs i've ever played.


sorry for the ranting~

You should give it another try at some point or just download a save file at chapter 11 onwards and you'll get all the sidequests you need, also do you hate it just for changing a bit of the formula? it made sense for them not interacting with many people cause they'd be caught and shot dead
This proves matpat's point

 

[Foxi4]

No, did you even play the game through?
I never bothered to read a damn datalog and understood the story pefectly, everything is explained at some point in the story, can't expect everything to rush in at the beginning can you?

No, not everything. I expect expository scenes. Let's take that train scene. Have the characters address each other by name and consult how they want to escape. Make them mention who they're escaping from and why. Take the fal'cie for instance. If they're godlike then they must have temples of some sort, right? Have the characters visit a temple during some sort of a sermon and insert exposition on what a fal'cie is.

You were never lost in the game because you can't get lost in the game - it's a corridor.

It made sense for them not interacting with many people cause they'd be caught and shot dead

No they wouldn't. At one point in the game Snow directly interacts with a f*cking army and talks them out of shooting him square in the face even though for all intents and purposes the soldiers have all the reasons to shoot him in the face. Final Fantasy armies are the most incompetent bunches of fools in the universe.

 

[Ace Overclocked]

No, not everything. I expect expository scenes. Let's take that train scene. Have the characters address each other by name and consult how they want to escape. Make them mention who they're escaping from and why. Take the fal'cie for instance. If they're godlike then they must have temples of some sort, right? Have the characters visit a temple during some sort of a sermon and insert exposition on what a fal'cie is.

You were never lost in the game because you can't get lost in the game - it's a corridor.

Lots of things exposed us to what a fal'cie is:
Fighting the Fal'cie on many occasions
The nautilus festival
Visiting a Fal'cie temple as you said (the pulse vestige as an example)
The cutscenes with barthandellus, cid raines and the electricity plant where kujata resides, taejin's tower, oerba etc
Also, it was an escape, they did discuss a little bit but they were running away dude.
As always, most arguments i hear against XIII is what people hear on the internet with little to no evidence.

 

[dimmidice]

No, did you even play the game through?
I never bothered to read a damn datalog and understood the story pefectly, everything is explained at some point in the story, can't expect everything to rush in at the beginning can you?

You should give it another try at some point or just download a save file at chapter 11 onwards and you'll get all the sidequests you need, also do you hate it just for changing a bit of the formula? it made sense for them not interacting with many people cause they'd be caught and shot dead
This proves matpat's point

there's 13 chapters in the game. if the game puts you in a cage up to chapter 11 then the game sucks.

and no i don't hate it for changing a bit of the formula. i hate it because it's a bad game. also removing towns and villages and exploration from a FF game isn't changing it a little bit. it's changing it entirely.


i'l sum up my biggest issues with it

- much too linear

- boring yet overly complicated battle system

- odin transforming into a horse.

- too much dumped on you at the start, then after that it's just boring background flashbacks with 0 interaction

No, not everything. I expect expository scenes. Let's take that train scene. Have the characters address each other by name and consult how they want to escape. Make them mention who they're escaping from and why..

like in FF7 with the first reactor. it explained a lot while still having you actually do things. it explained the relationships between the characters and established a lot of the lore and such without being overwhelming or boring.

edit: also i've been thinking it over and you might be right about the fal'cie being in the codec. i remember reading virtually everything in the codec as it unlocked because i wanted to feel submersed in the world. (which i didn't feel at all)

 

[FAST6191]

• I like Lightning. Unlike most FF women, Lightning can actually stand on her own 2 feet, despite their cliche's I liked all the others too, but then again every FF has cliche characters too.

So I read that and my initial thoughts might have been heading towards agreement. Then I ran the numbers and came back with a "squeh?" as a response to that. I am almost reminded of the time a question on an exam, in this case I think for general studies, ran something like "Pulp fiction is a bad film because it demeans women", my response to which was "have you actually seen Pulp fiction?"

Had you said most of the male leads were whiny punks that the group would probably have been better to shiv and dump before they left the first area* then I might have agreed.

*but of course we have deus ex machina, or worse, with them being the chosen one or something.

 

[Originality]

I felt FF13 wasn't as bad as people make out... but I never got round to finishing it. When certain battles start getting too hard to progress through, one turns to the equipment and tries to level up a bit... but this game doesn't feel like it's designed for that, which is what made me rapidly lose interest. Every other final fantasy, any difficult spot I encountered I could just grind for a half hour and manage afterwards.

Aside from that, I actually liked the story (watched the movie version of the games) and the graphics and I've nothing against the linearity. The combat was alright, but it never really felt immersive. Music was good, and I didn't mind the character's voices (Vanille wouldn't have been a better character no matter what voice they used).

 

[Foxi4]

Lots of things exposed us to what a fal'cie is:
Fighting the Fal'cie on many occasions //This does not explain what a fal'cie is. To the contrary all fal'cie appear to look completely different, they're random monsters, no more, no less. Some fal'cie are beneficial (the one that creates nutrition for example. Of course you plan on destroying it because the characters are assholes), some want to destroy the world, it's a mish-mash of ideas that never actually explains what they are.
The nautilus festival //You visit it at Chapter 8. Thanks for wasting 40 hours of my time
Visiting a Fal'cie temple as you said (the pulse vestige as an example) //Thanks for reminding me that there's Pulse l'cie/fal'cie and Cocoon l'cie/fal'cie just to convolute things a bit
The cutscenes with barthandellus, cid raines and the electricity plant where kujata resides, taejin's tower, oerba etc //Barthandellus is a fal'cie and yet he never actually tells you what your focus is, making him an inefficient villian. Again, this is stupid. You also meet him in what, Chapter 11?
Also, it was an escape, they did discuss a little bit but they were running away dude. //And...? They couldn't talk with each other on all the other numerous occasions when they do f*ck-all?
As always, most arguments i hear against XIII is what people hear on the internet with little to no evidence. //Or they just have a different opinion.

 

[Black-Ice]

So I read that and my initial thoughts might have been heading towards agreement. Then I ran the numbers and came back with a "squeh?" .

Oh well that statement was based on my belief that most of the women in FF games have little to no personality other than their love attachment to said whiny punks.
It may be a rash statement since I havent studied every FF female character in the series of course but its a trend among those I've seen.

 

[Foxi4]

I forgot to mention Snow's interpretation of keeping a low profile, since we're continuously on about how they're "on the run" and "can't engage or interact with people or they'll be caught and killed".



Responsible and sensible. Apparently the police isn't that much of a threat.

 

[dimmidice]

Oh well that statement was based on my belief that most of the women in FF games have little to no personality other than their love attachment to said whiny punks.
It may be a rash statement since I havent studied every FF female character in the series of course but its a trend among those I've seen.

have you played other final fantasies? there's no need to study anything, just playing them should tell you plenty.

lets take "dagger" from FF9. really strong character IMO. she defies her mother and her entire kingdom all on her own. (or at least, was planning to do it on her own)

the other games,

FF8 had rinoa can't really call her a strong woman.


FF7 there's aeris who is an interesting character but again can't really call her a super strong women.

FF10 had yuna as female lead, i'd say she's pretty strong, eventhough on the outside she seems really weak.

FF 12 had ashe (this is up for debate as there's no clear female lead in this one) who is an incredibly strong female character. and no love interest in the game either.
then there's penelo who is bossy and stubborn, also fairly strong, and fran who doesn't take shit from anyone.

plenty of strong female characters in FF's IMO. i can't talk about 1-6 as i don't remember them clearly enough

 

[Gahars]

Wasn't Final Fantasy VII's Tifa a "strong female character," both figuratively and literally?

 

[dimmidice]

Wasn't Final Fantasy VII's Tifa a "strong female character," both figuratively and literally?

i was only really taking the lead females, (ff12 has no clear female lead) but yes i'd say she was a strong female as well.

FF8 has quistis who is also a strong female character, though no as strong as lets say ashe.

edit: how could i forget yuffie! she definitely counts as a strong female.

 

[Black-Ice]

aeris

rinoa

yuna

T_T
Three strikes, you're out.

Wasn't Final Fantasy VII's Tifa a "strong female character," both figuratively and literally?

You got me there, she's kind of an exception but still mostly just a love interest

 

[dimmidice]

T_T
Three strikes, you're out.

you clearly didnt even read my post. i said aeris and rinoa WERENT strong women.

as for yuna, she's definitely a strong female. spoiler's just incase.

Spoiler

she takes on a profession that she knows will kill her, she goes against everything she's believed in her entire life, and she tries to take out seymour all on her own