'Loot Boxes' Declared Gambling by Belgium GC & Hawaii HoR, Both Seek Bans in Europe and the US

wolfmankurd · Nov 22, 2017

I hope they do gain the burden of being gambling.

IMHO the end result of loot boxes is games designed to sell loot boxes which hamper the fun of people who don't want them.

For example the star wars game will suck if every 13 year old has Vader and I don't because EA are greedy fucks.

WhiteMaze · Nov 22, 2017

Imagine the absolute chaos and commotion and EA's headquarters right now, with people being fired left and right, some pulling their hair out and others jumping out the windows.

You had it coming for a long time EA. Not just you. But you by far deserved it the most.

Ha.

wolfmankurd · Nov 22, 2017

WhiteMaze said:
Imagine the absolute chaos and commotion and EA's headquarters right now, with people being fired left and right, some pulling their hair out and others jumping out the windows.

You had it coming for a long time EA. Not just you. But you by far deserved it the most.

Ha.

Don't think any of that is happening.

Do we even have any data on loss of EA preorders compared to usual?

sarkwalvein · Nov 22, 2017

WhiteMaze said:
Imagine the absolute chaos and commotion and EA's headquarters right now, with people being fired left and right, some pulling their hair out and others jumping out the windows.

You had it coming for a long time EA. Not just you. But you by far deserved it the most.

Ha.

I can only imagine their lawyers finally working their asses off for their salaries, and their overworked lobbyists sucking VIPs' dicks all around, I wonder if they will achieve anything.

WhiteMaze · Nov 22, 2017

wolfmankurd said:
Don't think any of that is happening.

Do we even have any data on loss of EA preorders compared to usual?

This isn't about pre-orders or number of copies sold.

This is about where the real money is. It is fair to say, that for the past few years the majority of profits can be seen with micro transactions and the free to play model. The sale of the original game probably accounts for a small percentage of the profit a title makes. Games like CS GO or Dota 2 are prime examples of this.

With this development, not only loot boxes but micro-transactions in general could end up being banned in their entirety. Which for companies like EA, would be the same as going back 10 years when all you could do was develop a good game 100% complete and hope it sells. No season passes. No useless quick cashgrab DLC's. No bullcrap.

That is what's scaring EA and other gaming companies shitless right now.

Kioku · Nov 22, 2017

WhiteMaze said:
This isn't about pre-orders or number of copies sold.

This is about where the real money is. It is fair to say, that for the past few years the majority of profits can be seen with micro transactions and the free to play model. The sale of the original probably accounts for a small percentage of the profit a title makes. Games like CS GO or Dota 2 are prime examples of this.

With this development, not only loot boxes but micro-transactions in general could end up being banned in their entirety. Which for companies like EA, would be the same as going back 10 years when all you could do was develop a good game 100% complete and hope it sells. No season passes. No useless quick cashgrab DLC's. No bullcrap.

That is what's scaring EA and other gaming companies shitless right now.

This would probably force more season passes, quick cash grab DLC, etc... Since they don't fall under loot boxes.

WhiteMaze · Nov 22, 2017

Memoir said:
This would probably force more season passes, quick cash grab DLC, etc... Since they don't fall under loot boxes.

We shall see. Either way, the bad attention these companies have on them right now is unprecedented. They have already been branded illegal gambling companies and child predators, and this thing has only just started. I feel the potential for this to turn into an absolute nightmare clusterfuck for companies could be very real and well over their heads.

RustInPeace · Nov 22, 2017

Subtle Demise said:
Fire Emblem Heroes has loot boxes though lol

Okay. I was really just leaking stuff from the mind without any processing. I don't really play new video games unless it's Pokemon, and the exceptions are mostly Nintendo games, where I don't encounter loot boxes. I had to google the term, I don't know what it exactly means, shows how out of modern video games I am.

BORTZ · Nov 22, 2017

Except Loot Boxes aren't gambling.

Gambling requires wagering money. Since you aren't getting money back in exchange for loot boxes, technically this falls under "simulated gambling".
Gambling on something implies that you could lose it all and be left with nothing. Loot boxes, however shitty, still reward you with something.

However the ESRB does not even classify them as any form of gambling. If they were, games with said boxes would receive AO ratings and kill loot boxes all together.

MadMageKefka · Nov 22, 2017

Wooo! Its about time someone did something about the scam that is the video game market these days. Loot boxes, DLC planned before release but still charged for, freemium, pay-to-win, etc..... I'm so sick of game companies getting away with all this crap. Sick of game them thinking its ok to charge $10-$15 for a skin. I mean seriously, that had to take devs what? 30 min? ...An hour tops? There are plenty of FULL GAMES that cost less.

This is a great step forward towards a better community / market!

Kioku · Nov 22, 2017

BORTZ said:
Except Loot Boxes aren't gambling.

Gambling requires wagering money. Since you aren't getting money back in exchange for loot boxes, technically this falls under "simulated gambling".
Gambling on something implies that you could lose it all and be left with nothing. Loot boxes, however shitty, still reward you with something.

However the ESRB does not even classify them as any form of gambling. If they were, games with said boxes would receive AO ratings and kill loot boxes all together.

That's what I'm saying.

MadMageKefka said:
Wooo! Its about time someone did something about the scam that is the video game market these days. Loot boxes, DLC planned before release but still charged for, freemium, pay-to-win, etc..... I'm so sick of game companies getting away with all this crap. Sick of game them thinking its ok to charge $10-$15 for a skin. I mean seriously, that had to take devs what? 30 min? ...An hour tops? There are plenty of FULL GAMES that cost less.

This is a great step forward towards a better community / market!

Devs charge for individual skins? At $10-15 a piece?

MadMageKefka · Nov 22, 2017

BORTZ said:
Except Loot Boxes aren't gambling.

Gambling requires wagering money. Since you aren't getting money back in exchange for loot boxes, technically this falls under "simulated gambling".
Gambling on something implies that you could lose it all and be left with nothing. Loot boxes, however shitty, still reward you with something.

However the ESRB does not even classify them as any form of gambling. If they were, games with said boxes would receive AO ratings and kill loot boxes all together.

No, its the same scam being used on kids for generations now.

"Buy this mystery pack and see which action figures come inside! Bug your parents for more and more money until they finally break down and buy it at a hobby shop for $100, right before all the kids get bored with it and it becomes valueless."

Its wrong. They know kids will bug the living hell out of their parent until they get it. I agree that its not "gambling" per-se, but it is a disgusting business practice and its VERY close to gambling. Always has been.

Memoir said:
Companies charge for individual skins? At $10-15 a piece?

Look at MOBAs. Heroes of the Storm or League of Legends, for example.

Kioku · Nov 22, 2017

MadMageKefka said:
No, its the same scam being used on kids for generations now.

"Buy this mystery pack and see which action figures come inside! Bug your parents for more and more money until they finally break down and buy it at a hobby shop for $100, right before all the kids get bored with it and it becomes valueless."

Its wrong. They know kids will bug the living hell out of their parent until they get it. I agree that its not "gambling" per-se, but it is a disgusting business practice and its VERY close to gambling. Always has been.

Look at MOBAs. Heroes of the Storm or League of Legends, for example.

In game or through a third party marketplace?

MadMageKefka · Nov 22, 2017

Memoir said:
In game or through a third party marketplace?

Both? Not 100% sure what you mean.

Kioku · Nov 22, 2017

MadMageKefka said:
Both? Not 100% sure what you mean.

Do the devs charge for those items in game? Or do you pay for them through the likes of steam marketplace or some other third party website?

MadMageKefka · Nov 22, 2017

Memoir said:
Do the devs charge for those items in game? Or do you pay for them through the likes of steam marketplace or some other third party website?

You mean the skins? Its in game. Buy directly from the company that made the game.

Kioku · Nov 22, 2017

MadMageKefka said:
You mean the skins? Its in game. Buy directly from the company that made the game.

I see. So, that's micro transactions then? Not loot boxes?

MadMageKefka · Nov 22, 2017

Memoir said:
I see. So, that's micro transactions then? Not loot boxes?

Yes.... but I never said it was loot boxes. It was included in a list of gaming industry common business practices that I find to be greedy / bad / scammy / whatever you wanna call it.

tunip3 · Nov 22, 2017

HaloEliteLegend said:
In a very sudden development on the hot-button topic of 'loot boxes' and gambling in video games, the Belgium Gaming Commission has completed their investigation on the matter and have concluded that in-game 'loot boxes' are a form of gambling, and will likely be banned in Belgium. This could entail hundreds of thousands of Euros in fines towards Electronic Arts and other offending companies, as well as a ban on sales of games with loot boxes until companies acquire a gambling license or remove the feature from their games. What's more, Belgium is seeking to classify loot boxes as gambling across the entirety of Europe. Currently, the Dutch Gambling Authority has launched a similar investigation.

The Belgium Gaming Commission's statement roughly read, "The mixing of money and addiction is gambling." Belgium's Minister of Justice also chimed in, saying, "Mixing gambling and gaming, especially at a young age, is dangerous for the mental health of the child."

Following quickly after, and in a highly unexpected move, Hawaii House of Representatives rep. Chris Lee (D) held a press conference where he announced that the State of Hawaii would be introducing legislation to curb the "predatory behavior" of companies like Electronic Arts. He explicitly mentions Battlefront 2, calling it a "Star Wars-themed online casino, designed to lure kids into spending money." Highlights from that press conference can be seen here:

Lee said that new legislation in the coming year will target predatory microtransaction practices and that Hawaii would be speaking with other states to introduce similar legislation elsewhere in the United States. Parents also took the podium at the press conference to express their own concerns about loot boxes and microtransactions. Lee later wrote a Reddit post explaining the announcement, which can be read in its entirety by following this link. In the post, he calls on US citizens to contact their state legislatures and demand action against predatory microtransaction practices in the gaming industry.

The speed at which regulatory bodies are reacting to the loot box controversy is astounding. These developments come in the wake of EA's botched microtransaction scheme in Star Wars: Battlefront II that led to a Reddit post by an EA representative becoming the most downvoted comment in the website's history, prompting Disney to intervene and garnering mainstream media coverage on popular news outlets like CNN. This spells trouble not just for EA, but for all major publishers, including Activision-Blizzard, Ubisoft, 2K Games, and any other company engaging in 'loot box' practices and predatory microtransaction schemes.

Oh, how the tides turn.

Source 1
Source 2
Source 3
Source 4

I hope the company either gives away the stuff now or discloses how likely will it be that you get an item

FAST6191 · Nov 22, 2017

MadMageKefka said:
the scam that is the video game market these days. Loot boxes, DLC planned before release but still charged for, freemium, pay-to-win, etc..... I'm so sick of game companies getting away with all this crap. Sick of game them thinking its ok to charge $10-$15 for a skin. I mean seriously, that had to take devs what? 30 min? ...An hour tops? There are plenty of FULL GAMES that cost less.

DLC before release at least when it is things like

I can stomach
Don't even mind on disc DLC -- plenty of other software models have it after all.
Speaking of software models I am OK with some aspects of the rolling release model and that can have implications here.

I have problems with them carving up games such that you are left with almost a shell of a game and then not expected to purchase the rest but moves purposely designed to maximise people buying in stuff like that.

Freemium is what it is. I can dismiss that as "if you don't like it then don't play".

Pay to win, which is to say those that paid end up with a fairly clear advantage over those that did not, I have problems with and happily call such games broken if you are going to call such things a test of skill. That said I don't know if I can get as far as calling it a scam.

The skins thing
You get things like
http://store.steampowered.com/dlc/24010/
Which may have rights issues associated with them. Fair enough really there.
Similarly skins which had the effort put in I can live with. The ones that are functionally the alt colours from the 16 bit era, or could be made in 20 seconds with a colour slider is not a scam in as much as it delivers what was asked for but certainly ranks up there with the "shit I touched" things you see at events where they drag a noted person into and give them a desk to sit behind.

You occasionally get a phrase along the lines of gambling is a tax on idiocy, or maybe a specific type of gambling. It feels like something similar could be made for many of these things.

In any case you are unlikely to find me buying into such things -- make a broken game and there will be thousands of other things out there to occupy my time.

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There's hope for a Xenosaga port.

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DO NOT SCREENSHOT

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