Hacking Coding vWii 3-core support - everything you need to know.

[marcan_troll]

Personally I think that f0f is expecting a little too much. Almost all homebrew devs take a look at what is being asked and think "This is beyond me, so I'll just have to wait till it's done to start working on homebrew again."

Homebrew application devs, sure. What we're looking for is interested homebrew *framework* devs. Yes, there are fewer of those - but if none of them are interested in Wii U homebrew, then who is going to make it happen? People need to stop pointing at us as if we're to blame for nobody rising up to build a Wii U homebrew ecosystem. Sure, we could do it ourselves, but we don't find it interesting enough or worthwhile enough for the reasons I already stated in the first part of the Espresso article, so we're not doing it. Quite frankly, anyone who thinks they can guilt us into working on something we're not motivated to work on is an entitled asshole. But we're happy to hand over what we have to someone else who can do it and is interested (and there are quite a few in the Wii homebrew scene who have the skills to do it - I won't name any names since I don't want to redirect the whining to anyone else - and of course many more in other areas who could become interested in Wii U homebrew). None of them seem motivated enough to do it so far.

I know because I've reached out to many of them. I don't think the result would be any different if they had done the same thing with the Wii. Interest hasn't dropped (well maybe it has a little), it's just that they've forgotten what it's like to have the limited amount of knowledge of the average homebrew dev, and expect everything they know from the Wii (that's not a typo) to be known by us.

We didn't magically become experts on the Wii. Heck, I hadn't done any PowerPC before the Wii at all. We didn't hack every prior console before the Wii. I didn't know anyone in what now is fail0verflow before the release of the Wii. I ended up joining Team Twiizers by demonstrating interest and motivation by writing a partial high-level IOS kernel emulator to experiment with IOS modules (that later became a more complete Starlet emulator), even though I had zero experience with the Wii or the Gamecube before that. Granted, I had a pretty good idea of how computer architectures worked by that point - but I didn't have any specialized Wii knowledge.
The world has a continuum of people with different amounts of knowledge in different categories. You don't even need to have any specific knowledge working with consoles or PowerPC. Jumping between architectures of similar complexity level isn't too hard; just spend a few evenings reading through the architecture manuals.

You have to realize that nobody gets to jump from writing apps using existing libraries to developing those libraries in the first place from one day to the next. Before the Wii, I had messed around with the GBA and the PS2 for several years. At first I had no idea what I was doing either. Maxternal is on the right path - is he going to start up a Wii U homebrew ecosystem? Probably not. But if he gets this working, even if it takes a year, he will have learned enough that he might help start up the homebrew ecosystem of the next console. For the Wii U, we need those who already have been down this path for a while - say, people who started off as Wii homebrew devs and then moved on to deeper topics - or people who already did this kind of thing for another device or ecosystem. It's up to them to show interest and speak up.

For those who want to see Wii U homebrew happen, but can't do it themselves: Find someone interested who can make it happen, or give up and move on to other platforms.
For those who wish they could help make Wii U homebrew happen: Start deepening your knowledge. You won't make it in time for this generation, but you might be leading the next.
For those who want to see Wii U homebrew happen, and have the technical chops to do it, and the motivation to actually go and do it: Tell us already. We haven't seen evidence that you exist so far.

 

[marcan_troll]

Also, allow me to paraphrase, summarize, and anonymize an IRC conversation that I had the other day. A is another fail0verflower (who developed the exploit in question), B is a respected Wii homebrew dev with more than enough skills to work on getting Wii U homebrew started, and one of the 30-ish people whom I said have access to the Wii U mode exploit.

[referring to posts on this thread where I claimed the 30-ish people had the exploit]
<B> marcan: you never actually gave us a usable exploit
<marcan> Huh, I thought we did.
<B> I can't use it because <reasons>
<marcan> Weird, I didn't know that was the case. It's not in A's style. It should be easy to fix that problem.
<A> Actually, I fixed that months ago. I just haven't been putting any effort into this for the past year or so, and never got around to sharing the fixed version.
<A> Ah, I need to change something else now. I'll do it, but not this second.
<B> TBH, I'd rather work on <Wii stuff not related to the Wii U> first, because it annoys the shit out of me.
<marcan> Keep in mind that none of that would be useful for the Wii U.
<B> Yeah, but I keep running into it.

See? Lack of interest. B would rather be working on something else. I don't blame him. But understand that this is the pattern that I've been seeing - the general feeling that Wii U homebrew would be cool, yes, but nobody capable is motivated enough to go from "it would be cool" to "I'm going to get my hands dirty and actually get this started".

 

[OncleJulien]

"If something's too hard then it's not worth doing"
“I was thinking about learning programming and try to self-motivate myself in learning C, Linux and eventually ASM, but guess there's no real need now”
“In my opinion, learning to program won't do jack squat in the grand scheme of things, so why should I even bother learning?”

sentiments you share with exactly 0% of the attendees of CCC/30c3.

you can choose to be part of the solution or part of the problem, to simply speak or to go out and do...your call - marcan cant stop you, f0f cant stop you, only you can stop you.

 

[the_randomizer]

sentiments you share with exactly 0% of the attendees of CCC/30c3.

you can choose to be part of the solution or part of the problem, to simply speak or to go out and do...your call - marcan cant stop you, f0f cant stop you, only you can stop you.

I'm not arguing with that at all, of course I could learn to code.

 

[pwsincd]

<B> marcan: you never actually gave us a usable exploit
<marcan> Huh, I thought we did.
<B> I can't use it because <reasons>
<marcan> Weird, I didn't know that was the case. It's not in A's style. It should be easy to fix that problem.

does that say that they never had a usable exploit meaning thats why they aint progresssed anything ? and never bothered to ask lol

 

[Vappy]

It's a bit of an assumption to make, but I'm wondering kind of the same thing as pwsincd. Is it possible that some lack of communication for however long and some developers believing that there was a lot less usable than there actually was maybe contributed to the lack of attention or interest?

And cautiously optimistic, maybe too much so, but B says he'd rather work on other stuff 'first', maybe meaning he's considering getting into the Wii U stuff after he's done with whatever it is he's currently more engaged with? Or I'm just being blindly hopeful

Also marcan, I know GBATemp is hardly your favorite community, so I appreciate you taking your time to give these lengthy replies and explanations.

 

[uyjulian]

Guys, please stop arguring over pointless things like its fof's fault or marcan is fucking shit for not releasing the exploit it's their fault.

You guys will probably not stop, through.

 

[marcan_troll]

It's a bit of an assumption to make, but I'm wondering kind of the same thing as pwsincd. Is it possible that some lack of communication for however long and some developers believing that there was a lot less usable than there actually was maybe contributed to the lack of attention or interest?

There was a slight miscommunication, but I don't think it made a huge difference. Had there been real interest it would've been fixed much earlier. If anything I think the fact that nobody came shouting "But this is broken! Fix it! I really want to do this!" on day one is more evidence of the rather mellow enthusiasm.

And cautiously optimistic, maybe too much so, but B says he'd rather work on other stuff 'first', maybe meaning he's considering getting into the Wii U stuff after he's done with whatever it is he's currently more engaged with? Or I'm just being blindly hopeful

Sure, lots of us spent a lot of time considering, etc. It takes an important leap to go from that to doing

I don't blame B at all; I'm the first one who keeps procrastinating on things, even things that I am motivated to do. It's worth noting that B's "other stuff" is a pretty big project itself. If he does get started on Wii U homebrew (and especially if that kicks off others' interest), things could get interesting indeed.

 

[Vappy]

All very true, I was just trying to read out some hope from what you've said to counteract all the pessimism going on here, hah. And that's some right there, if he's someone you've got faith in to spearhead it, I'll be keeping my fingers crossed he finds interest in it eventually. Oh, also I didn't mean to insinuate the unmentioned other project was just some small distraction, I don't doubt he'd be quite so into it if it weren't interesting.

If nothing else, I'm hoping someone does eventually take up the reigns because it seems like it'd be wasted effort that you guys put into finding the exploit, aside from the fun I'm sure you had figuring it out.

 

[marcan_troll]

If nothing else, I'm hoping someone does eventually take up the reigns because it seems like it'd be wasted effort that you guys put into finding the exploit, aside from the fun I'm sure you had figuring it out.

The fun alone was well worth it. Actually, I like some of the more "useless" hacks too because they were more interesting to me. In fact we're still working on one tiny bit of the Wii U for fun - and if we can get that hack to work by 30c3 it'll be a pretty epic thing to describe, purely from a hacker pride and educational perspective. It's an awesome trick, regardless of what it will do for the Wii U.

 

[obcd]

Homebrew framework dev's?
Is there a reason why we should create a new framework instead of using linux?
Wiiu seems to have enough memory and cpu power to run linux? What am I missing?

 

[the_randomizer]

Homebrew framework dev's?
Is there a reason why we should create a new framework instead of using linux?
Wiiu seems to have enough memory and cpu power to run linux? What am I missing?

Maybe it's the way or efficacy of how unsigned code is executed? Maybe running a framework would be more advantageous in the long run.

 

[obcd]

If I buy a pc, I won't consider writing a homebrew framework for it..
I'll either use Windoze which will likely be preinstalled or
I will use linux which should also run on it without issues.
But again,...Maybe it's my age...
There are disadvantages like a longer startup time, but if that's worth creating a new homebrew framework...
I just can't lose the feeling someone of the mighty 30 was already working on a homebrew framework...
Maybe it's B from the Irc? (We need someone good at math as well..)

 

[Coto]

Homebrew framework dev's?
Is there a reason why we should create a new framework instead of using linux?
Wiiu seems to have enough memory and cpu power to run linux? What am I missing?

Maybe because of running real code on every physical part of the hardware (which is "the real feeling") it gives you when it actually works, without relying on patches, I'd stay away from generic frameworks..

running the real thing:

A (operators on hardware) leads to B


generic frameworks

generic A (requires basic map area and kernel[this clamps up your environment]) -> (simulated operators on software threads by kernel) -> leads to B

.. it's not the same..

 

[delroth]

By "homebrew framework" marcan means Linux on Wii U + all the drivers required to do useful stuff (GPU, but also DRH support if you want to do anything useful with the gamepad).

 

[obcd]

Thanks delroth. I'll check coto's post again in the morning.. It's probably just me...
I was thinking they expected someone to take a real time multi threaded embedded open source os and add all the drivers (like usb stack and bluetooth stack) to that to get the hardware running.
A bit like devkitpro and libogc, but for wiiu and designed from scratch.
Maybe even like mini was designed to be a replacement for ios? Or am I getting that wrong as well? Learning by the minute...

 

[the_randomizer]

Maybe because of running real code on every physical part of the hardware (which is "the real feeling") it gives you when it actually works, without relying on patches, I'd stay away from generic frameworks..

running the real thing:

A (operators on hardware) leads to B


generic frameworks

generic A (requires basic map area and kernel[this clamps up your environment]) -> (simulated operators on software threads by kernel) -> leads to B

.. it's not the same..

So what would be the best course of action to take? Is it even feasible to write the right kind of framework for the Wii U? If it can be done that way, we should probably take it.

 

[JoostinOnline]

Quite frankly, anyone who thinks they can guilt us into working on something we're not motivated to work on is an entitled asshole.

I sure hope that wasn't directed towards me, because I haven't done anything to guilt a f0f member.

But we're happy to hand over what we have to someone else who can do it and is interested (and there are quite a few in the Wii homebrew scene who have the skills to do it - I won't name any names since I don't want to redirect the whining to anyone else - and of course many more in other areas who could become interested in Wii U homebrew). None of them seem motivated enough to do it so far.

Really? I was unaware of that. I could think of maybe 5 people (who aren't f0f members), and a couple of them have sort of dropped off the grid.

For those who wish they could help make Wii U homebrew happen: Start deepening your knowledge. You won't make it in time for this generation, but you might be leading the next.

Lol, that's hardly encouraging. 6+ years might be enough.

 

[the_randomizer]

I sure hope that wasn't directed towards me, because I haven't done anything to guilt a f0f member.

Really? I was unaware of that. I could think of maybe 5 people (who aren't f0f members), and a couple of them have sort of dropped off the grid.

Lol, that's hardly encouraging. 6+ years might be enough.

So, if we were to get their (those five or so guys) support, that would better than nothing, at least I think. It'd be a great start

 

[comex]

(following opinions may be influenced by the fact that I'm crabby and too tired to get any useful work done, which is my favorite time to talk about drama; they may also better reflect my depression than anything to do with the Wii U.)

As for me, now that MacBooks have built-in HDMI ports and my Ouya has been sitting unopened in its box for something like half a year, I have a hard time caring about the practical implications of yet another underpowered way to connect Linux to a TV. Which is not to say that reimplementing the wheel in general isn't a fun way to learn things, or that porting Linux wouldn't be a fun way for me to learn things, but when the end result of the latter is so uninteresting, I have better things to do. (Or, mostly, procrastinate on and ultimately not do, but some things get done...)

But I also don't care about piracy that much. At least I'd like to believe that I don't care, because I am very selfish and one of the things I hate most in the world is when something interesting is kept secret from me, so I detest doing the same to others; and because trying to weigh the benefits of openness versus the drawbacks of piracy makes me feel like some lord in a high castle and also stupid for caring so much about running code on a game console. Guess I got myself into that mess by writing the exploit, and it's not like most reverse engineering projects are any more practically valuable, with a few exceptions... but a year is long enough to have avoided the problem by ignoring the project, and I still can't be comfortable with secretiveness, so something must give.

And there is one thing that matters: Project M. And Newer Super Mario Bros., and other game mods, but mostly Project M. Just about everything else the Wii homebrew scene ever produced will soon be or has already been forgotten, but unless Smash 4 is much different than expected, competitive gamers will probably be playing that mod for years to come; just think how long they've held onto Melee. It's a project that a rather large group of people can look at and perhaps, if they care, appreciate Wii homebrew for, which makes it a lot easier to say it was worth it.

In fact, that makes the piracy question a lot simpler, because on a sufficiently powerful device, modding and piracy are pretty much inextricable. Similarly, it makes the issue with developing an ecosystem and making Linux run irrelevant: while that would be nice, the aforementioned only thing that matters won't be able to take advantage of any of it anyway, so there's no reason to wait for it.

Of course, Project M is not my work, and I don't know whether anyone will make a similarly lasting mod for a Wii U game. But Project M came three years after the host game was released, which was two years after its console was released: there's plenty of time, but there needs to be some sort of mature homebrew ecosystem for mods to get started, well before any release date. This goes especially so on a console with title updates: you will be able to stick Project M on a SD card and run it straight from Brawl forever (and were able to do that before the Wii stopped being updated in general) due to an unfixable vulnerability in Brawl itself, but without that there's no way around a continual succession of exploits, which requires continual effort and momentum. If it's not there (like on iOS), well, being able to guarantee that your users can actually run your mod, I suspect, would tend to be a big discouragement from developing one, especially for anything remotely resembling a competitive setting. (I suppose an alternative would be writing an emulator, which can't really be patched, but talk about encouraging piracy, TV isn't entirely a non-issue, and such an emulator would have to perform better than Dolphin, which is doable, but certainly nontrivial.)

So I think this should happen. And who knows? Maybe natural momentum (plus the CCC talks) will be effective at enticing participation despite the lack of it over the past year, simply by avoiding the chicken-and-egg problem. Well, I can hope...