Freedom of Speech is not Freedom from Consequence

‘It’s not transphobic to have concerns about transgender people,’ say various users of Mumsnet, outwardly liberal columnists, some politicians, and certain bigots who attempt to slide a wedge between trans women and feminism.

Hold up. What do they think the word ‘transphobia’ means?

If we swap the word concerns for fears it is textbook definition transphobia.

Of course that’s linguistic gymnastics. I guess you’re either prejudiced or not. Prejudice is so much more than a word: it’s a gut-deep, gurgling suspicion or malice towards a person or a group. These prejudices are perhaps based on nothing; on experience; on tradition; on tabloid rumours. Whatever the origin, taking that prejudice and applying it to countless, nameless people is a phobia. If you have ‘concerns’ about a whole bunch of transgender people, the vast majority of whom you don’t know and have never met, you are transphobic.

If you have met me and you still think I’m a cunt, that’s fine, I guess.

Amongst a litany of things transgender people are baselessly accused of, we are often told we are ‘silencing’ our critics. If only I could, they’re so fucking noisy. Ah yes, the refrain of bigots everywhere: ‘what about FREEDOM OF SPEECH?’

I always feel this is the last resort. When you have nothing left, it’s the crossed fingers behind your back or the ‘gotcha’ moment on a hidden camera show. One can rationally expose prejudice and discrimination, you can fall back on laws and legislation, but…oh wait, what’s that? ‘Freedom of speech’, you say. Oh great, I guess you win then? You got to speak.

Of course, debates around freedom of speech often lead to a brand of sixth form debate team mental yoga in which, if we silence homophobia, islamophobia, transphobia and racism, we risk villainous despots using those rules to similarly restrict political prisoners, amnesty, protesters and, heaven forbid, trans columnists from having a voice. That’s a valid point, and the reason why laws and legislation around freedom of speech should be closely monitored by both organisations like Amnesty, the UN, and governments. Restricting hate speech is clearly defined and set out in law: you cannot incite violence against those with ‘protected’ status. That includes transgender people because we are especially vulnerable to violence and harassment.

On a personal level, this means you, broadly speaking, have the right to say whatever half-arsed thought pops into your head. What no-one has the legal or moral right to is freedom of consequence. Such a thing does not exist. If you say outrageous things which promote violence, such as revealing the address, schools or workplaces of trans people, you can and should expect to feel the long arm of the law. This is letting violent bigots know where to find their victims. If you’re caught on camera speaking at foam-at-the-mouth rallies in which you advocate violence against trans women, expect to get a knock at the door from a police officer.

Another, and perhaps more likely, consequence of publically spouting off about trans people is you might find some theatres, universities and other arts spaces start to withdraw their offers of hosting you as a speaker. This has become known as ‘no-platforming’. Yes, this is a consequence of your words. If your words are unappealing, you can’t blame people for finding you unappealing. This is true especially if hosting a bigot is going to bring about consequences for the venue or organisation as a whole. Why would a space or company wish to associate itself with ass-backwards, hateful views?

It bears repeating: freedom of speech never came with a guaranteed booking at a university or literary festival. You have no right to a platform. It is the platform’s freedom of speech to say ‘no’.

Social media is one such platform. They too have the right and freedom to decide who gets to use them. Again, no-one ever said that your freedom of speech included the right to go into someone else’s home (in this case an online home) and say utterly abhorrent shit. If someone came into my house and started saying ghastly, prejudiced things, I would ask them to leave. Mark Zuckerberg and Jack Dorsey, among others, created these platforms. They do not ‘belong’ to us, as has been made abundantly clear in the way our data has been harvested from these sites.

For me, a trans woman living in the UK, this isn’t just about my freedom of speech, it’s about my freedom, full-stop. ‘We’re being silenced,’ whine people who advocate the restriction of my actual movements; my access to medical care; my ability to possess a birth certificate; my right to simply exist in my skin. But it’s not true. No-one is sliding a gag over their mouths. Instead, it’s just that some people are saying, ‘you can’t say that shit here’ or ‘you’re a bigot’ and that is very different. That’s our freedom of speech.

And if I see or hear something that is wrong I am absolutely free to say that I think you’re transphobic.
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I agree with your points. But "freedom of speech" is meaningless as the government would willfully define what is terroristic threats or actions and use the patriot act to undermine our constitution in the US. But yes Freedom of Speech just means the government can't silence you. If I want to clock you in the face for calling someone a n**** or saying all trans people should be euthanized that's not me impeding your speech. I'd be arrested for assault but like you said it isn't freedom from consequence and you aren't guaranteed a platform. And by the same vain that they've used to deny trans and gay people cakes or services any private platform has the right to deny them access. Twitter, Twitch, Youtube or Facebook really don't even have to give a reason. They're private companies. And that's how it should be. Ridiculous democrats in the US annoy me but the republicunts can fuck off with their special snowflake bullshit. They're the most sensitive group of people around that can't take an ounce of criticism. That said, I strongly disagree with how organizations like Black Lives Matters have pushed their messaging as well. They shot themselves in the foot by wording things in a way that makes it appear they mean "Only Black Lives Matter" instead of saying "Please consider that black lives matter too". It's all really frustrating. Then they use people like Brianna Taylor as martyrs instead of upstanding citizens. It undermines their own message. Obviously no knock warrants should be illegal but she was NOT an innocent or good person and she shouldn't have been the example when there's many children or good decent people that have been victims of police brutality. It's all deeply frustrating and it's easy to see how both sides are so fired up against each other.
 
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You got to accept that people also don't share your views. They have the same rights to argue against your rights, as much as you argue for your rights. That's what a democracy is about...
 
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@AmandaRose I fully understand the overall message. But their branding is trash and it's easy to see why they lose people. BLM and ANTIFA shot themselves in the foot with poor branding and not unifying their message or securing merchandising rights. By not being a centralized group BLM stiffed themselves and lost any group that matters. Obama's put it beautifully in multiple talks he's given regarding it. They're just a group circle jerking each other instead of trying to reach out and convince others. Then there's a lot of people that use the movement opportunistically to loot and that hurt the branding even more. It's all a big mess
 
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@linuxares yes they have the right to their own views but they do not have the right to be transphobic to me or others. This website does not allow views of a racist nature to be posted at all and such views are delt with in a timely manner. The same cannot be said for transphobic comments. There is only 5 staff members who actually do anything when such comments are posted the others just go its freedom of speech or it's only words ect. Bullshit there is zero difference between racism and transphobia. They both can cause long term damage to people on the receiving end. They are both classed as hate crimes in most countries around the world. This site needs to do more to protect people from such abuse its that simple really.
 
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"freedom of speech" since it's the orders we been told, to try to respect the talking. Racism is hate against a race and transphobia is the fear of transsexualism. They're in my mind not the same thing. One you're born with the other is an sexual dysfunction.

Same with Islamophobia. Just because I don't like religion doesn't mean I hate the people. It's a card you throw to stop critics.

When it goes overboard, report it. We will look at it.
 
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racism

/ˈreɪsɪz(ə)m/

noun

noun: racism

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

transphobia
/tranzˈfəʊbɪə,transˈfəʊbɪə/

noun
noun: transphobia
  1. dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.
Transphobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes, feelings or actions towards transgender people or transness in general. Transphobia can include fear, aversion, hatred, violence, anger, or discomfort felt or expressed towards people who do not conform to social gender expectations. It is often expressed alongside homophobic views and hence is often considered an aspect of homophobia. Transphobia is a type of prejudice and discrimination, similar to racism and sexism


Now tell me again how racism is not the same as transphobia
 
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@linuxares They aren't the same thing but I think the point @AmandaRose is trying to make is that rules against all kinds of hate speech should be banned. But that line is really difficult to draw at times. It's just a you know it when you see it. You cant just ban all opinions as that disallows any room for people to grow and change.
 
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Rj.MoG you are right and I'm also trying to get across the fact that the effects of those on the receiving end is the same and both racist and transphobic abuse can cause long term harm to the people on the receiving end. They both should be treated the same on this site the same way they are treated in law under the hate speech banner.
 
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Oh I totally get what it is. I agree that it's hate speech. But you must learn to difference different opinions.
Not everyone that is trans phobic that criticism transgender. Since it's still a very touchy subject since physiologic isn't still sure it's natural or other forces causing people to have a gender dysphoria.


Same as not everyone that dislikes Islam is a racist or Islamophobic.


I often use this as a source and not the Oxford Languages.
https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/gender-identity/transgender/whats-transphobia
 
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So what you linked to Linuxares pretty much backs up what I am saying especially the fact about the harm transphobic comments causes. But let's take a look at something else that was in there.

Transphobia can take many different forms, including

  • negative attitudes and beliefs

  • aversion to and prejudice against transgender people

  • irrational fear and misunderstanding

  • disbelief or discounting preferred pronouns or gender identity

  • derogatory language and name-calling

  • bullying, abuse, and even violence
So the first one there is negative attitudes and beliefs. This is seen in loads of posts in this very site. You know things like the constant posts that trans people all have mental health issues or we are all sexual predators ect. (These type of posts are never deleted)

Next we have aversion to and prejudice against transgender people. I shouldn't even need to point this one out just go read posts by some people in the political forum and you will see post full of this.

Next we have irrational fear and misunderstanding
Same as last answer just read posts in the political forum

disbelief or discounting preferred pronouns or gender identity. I have been told numerous times in the site I am not a woman you know because biology ect. (again these posts are never deleted)

Next up derogatory language and name-calling yip I have been called numerous things on this site including the T word and this is the only time when some site staff actually delete such posts.

Next up bullying, abuse, and even violence ok so the violence part doesn't really apply here. So let's focus on bullying and abuse. I have been told several times to go kill myself for being trans I have had comments wishing harm on all my family simply because I am trans and so much more.

All of the above is happening on the site to myself and other trans members pretty much all the time and it needs to stop. And it needs to stop being hidden under the excuse of free speech especially when your own link defines such actions as being transphobic.
 
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H
GBATemp - Independent Gaming Community

ok
 
@linuxares
Disagreeing with someone's existence isn't ok and shouldn't be treated like some humble opinion. We don't view the same kind of mentality as ok when it comes to other uncontrollable factors like race nor do we see people simply saying "You need to respect their opinion" when it comes to matters like racism. The same treatment should be given to transphobia, homophobia, etc. they are all simply wrong and shouldn't be respected. Transphobia is a problem, innocent people are being stalked, harassed, beaten, and even killed because of transphobia. The idea of respecting transphobia because "it's just their opinion" is extremely disrespectful towards trans people just trying to live their day to day life and not be killed for simply existing. Sorry, not sorry, trans people aren't a debate. Trans people are people and should be treated with respect.
 
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Call me an arsehole and don't be my friend if someone utters some words that fall into your arbitrary* categories. Fine. Indeed speech and association usually falls under the same freedoms.

Slap the cuffs on or see the government drain my bank account... different matter entirely. If this is also seen as a continuation of the other thread then this was also what that was about.
Free speech as a concept is also not necessarily a legal notion as much as a philosophical one (the idea did not arise out of a vacuum after all).

On universities then sure, they are however traditionally recognised as places where you get to have your views challenged. Backing out because of someone's views, and perhaps not even more so but notably if nothing else, when it is not even relevant to the discussion at hand does not paint the rosiest picture either.
This would also apply to online places. They, and laws, can say no thanks to your presence, however it is hard to then claim to respect the notion of free speech if you do. As far as "online home" that is a tricky debate, or if nothing else then should you rock up somewhere is the place expected to conform to you? Seems an excessive request, or liable to lead to them as well as debate (myself and a spambot have just created a "no trans allowed" PM group, what do? Same but anybody can request an invite (though keep in mind the premise of the group). What do?

*and it is arbitrary, and not even in a cute (thought I might say nihilistic, or possibly solipsistic**) "it is a social construct" sense. If not everything won't, arguably even can't, be agreed upon. If sticking with the trans thing then the sports question is a great example of this.

**In the spirit of not making it a sixth form debate using terms that not everybody knows so as to look smart.
nihilism = nothing matters therefore
solipsism = only my mind can be said to exist therefore

Hate speech and inciting violence are not the same thing. You can incite violence without it, and I would argue hate speech is not violence. Some will try to say words cause harm and thus violence, however that is arbitrary, unknowable beforehand (even as a probabilistic thing). Make a nice list of epithets that might apply to me and I probably thank you for the list of cool words I get to learn, or be bored. Same could well and arguably does, apply to many others and thus arbitrary and hard to enforce, even without variability with time -- leaving aside its long standing and consistent use as a shorthand for transistor, skateboard ramps and vehicle transmission then the t word you reference itself was not always (and debatably in some places still is not) a "hateful" term. By similar token there is also the subject of who gets a pass to use the term, or do I have to call for the censure of almost every rap song and comic even if they are black, and indeed what is black (which brings up a whole other kettle of fish for "passing").

Clocking someone however is violence. He who (or would that be Whomsoever) throws the first punch is the arsehole. Of course "while I don't condone it, I understand it" likely applies, even if it does represent a failure to control your emotions.

"especially vulnerable to violence and harassment"
OK. As an individual I don't have lobbies for me, charities to help me if I fall down beyond me and whatever services everybody gets. As far as violence goes I can run pretty fast for a long while, hit pretty hard (both traits I might enjoy over many) but even one on one it is not a risk free endeavour and get that to three on one and... better hope there is room for me to make a swift exit. Someone brings a gun and the group that is me vanishes off the face of the earth. Does that not make me, and by extension every individual (which again may be even less capable of survival than I), more vulnerable than that?

"who attempt to slide a wedge between trans women and feminism"
From a pragmatic sense they don't necessarily have the same goals in all cases, and in some cases might even have if not opposite then mutually exclusive. If you want to get really fun not everybody, or indeed the mere fact you have to prepend women to trans kind of says it all.
Pragmatically then combining funding and resources is not the worst plan either (less overhead, limited mindspace/advertising/lobbying time for the would be man on the street, politico and whatever else), however under standard "show me the incentives and I will show you the outcomes, and indeed the reverse" logic then I will note the differences in goals, philosophies (even if only of subgroups) .

"used to deny trans and gay people cakes"
That is actually an interesting debate under the law and philosophy.
The main case there was do you have a right to my actions, or possibly speech depending upon wording, rather than a cake from my counter. It is not a question with easy answers either.
Or if you prefer if you as the either trans or yay trans baker have someone rock up and want a cake saying "MTF in female sports is a bad plan" should you then be compelled by law to make such a thing, even more so if it violates a religious belief (you mentioned "Islamophobia" so presumably you note religions in such a debate, unless you are going for the washy "sometimes it is racism, sometimes it is religion" even if definitionally it should just be religion. Indeed would you compel*** a practitioner of Islam that is also a cook offering cooking services to cook some bacon under penalty of law, and is there a functional difference. Islam is none too accepting of the gays and trans**** peeps either in a great many cases) or indeed even causes great mental anguish, and while I still don't agree speech= violence then if we are to operate under that paradigm, to know you potentially furthered the goals of such people.

***I did actually do a website for a pizza restaurant once run by an Islamic guy and employing Islamic people. They were none too happy about ham and pineapple but not for the traditional debate over combination. Still did it though.

****yes I know about the various countries where they occasionally compel a change, even fund it, but looking at the underlying logic that is hardly a great example.

As much as I detest giving, even more so ending, in what is essentially a disclaimer the amusing part is for the most part we would probably agree on what makes an arsehole, my seemingly favourite word of arbitrary also applies (trans is an arbitrary characteristic as far as I am concerned and thus I am content if we are going to slap people down by law for not hiring, not renting... then include that. On the flip side good people are hard to find so dismissing someone because trans makes you a fool, and try not to associate with fools), and I am all about getting people to where they need to be (which includes funding it from the same pool that fixes my broken leg). There may be points of disagreement too -- the sports question is an interesting one I have yet to resolve for myself (there is fairness, there is safety, the check your blood levels is an interesting notion that poses further questions, though at the same time sports is and forever will be a genetic freak show...), forced treatment as well as what is the suggested path (even if I know what simple economics at the personal level says) is a further debate but pill that demonstrably "cures" dysphoria would be a wonderful thing (and it absolutely can exist, indeed I as a not very good medic could achieve the result with some seriously unpleasant side effects with the contents of the little village pharmacy down the road, I don't know the chemical pathways to a good one but that is a different discussion), no idea where you sit here but not wanting to sleep with is personal preference and not bigotry from where I sit (or if it is then it is a mild as hair colour), and while I could continue then at this point it might be putting words in your mouth and I might be more going against lunacy I see online so I will skip it/put it off to a further reply (short version is I go on merit where that is an option, matching percentages because it looks pretty is stupid and historical redress in percentages is an abomination, and actors act and writers write).
I similarly find you potentially unnecessarily combative (I understand the mindset that led to it, we see it in everything from gaming to run of the mill gays too when fights for freedoms others happily enjoy for possibly decades and nuance risks pulling focus. Whether it is the time for nuance as primary goals have been achieved is up for debate) for many things, would probably call your claims of "I can take it" dubious if indeed it often results in outbursts and "cooling off", and occasional wielder of dubious statistics (another popular trend among many that enjoy the aforementioned mindset), but that I am happy to take to a debate in those cases.
 
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Personally I would say Norway is sacrificing freedom not even for security but the illusion of it.
 
I occasionally get ridiculed for being homosexual.
I guess it's better then being the sad pillock that is ridiculing me :')
 
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DinohScene the key there is you occasionally get ridiculed. The trans community here are pretty much ridiculed on a daily basis on this site. And it's not right.
 
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They are not allowed to be racist or say anything against people of colour that is derogatory on the site yet they can be transphobic and discriminate against us. Sorry there is no difference between the two
 
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