Belgium and the UN migration pact

Migration certainly is a hot political topic. Where the political left sees refugees from wars and natural disasters, the right sees potential criminals and a more restrictive culture. Donald Trump and the Brexit are (at least partially) consequences of people being afraid of the changes within the country.

In 2016, the UN drafted up a text on how to regulate and co-ordinate how their members could go about handling migration in a decent matter. It's non-binding, so it's more a framework and guidelines than an actual rule.

Nonetheless, it wasn't much of a surprise that Donald Trump's USA chickened out and proclaimed it was inconsistent with U.S. his personal immigration and refugee policies. Despite being heavily contested, the USA isn't alone. Bulgaria and Slovakia also pulled out. And Belgium...is a special case.


I know that it's more fun (and more important on world scale) to talk about the US, but I feel I should explain a few things about my country (fellow Belgians: feel free to correct or add comments :) ). Up until a week ago, our federal government consisted of the following political parties: N-VA, MR, open VLD and CD&V. It's a "center right" government, though on US terms it'd probably still be left-leaning. MR and Open VLD mostly cater to the middle class. CD&V is about as centered as a centered party can be: always looking to please "the people", their opinion is pretty much what that friendly uncle of yours might say. N-VA is...it's not exactly a traditional rightwing party, but other than a party that's openly racist (Vlaams belang) they're the closest thing to it. All the parties have mutually agreed never to form a government with Vlaams belang, no matter how many votes they get. During the last federal government elections, N-VA was (IIRC) the largest party on flemish side*.

In spring of this year, our government reviewed the UN migration pact. Nobody (including N-VA) saw a problem with it, so our prime minister - Charles Michel of the MR-party - promised in name of our country that we'd approve the pact in Marrakech in december.

Opinions on how to word it might differ, but the fact is that since a couple weeks, N-VA strongly disapproves of the pact. Like Donald, they fear all sorts of consequences (mass migration! women forced in burqa! Mass unemployment!), but suggest more than that they actually say. Their arguments are in the trend of "if it's non-binding, then what's the harm in not signing it?".
As said: they represent a significant part of the votes, so our prime minister couldn't simply ignore it. But it was pretty clear from almost the start that neither side would budge. All the other parties (as well as everyone but Vlaams belang on the opposition) are in favor. Oh, and there are new federal elections in June, which undoubtedly also a factor.

That also causes another weird situation: neither side wants to be held responsible for crashing the government. The way I'm telling the story, it's pretty obvious that N-VA is responsible (they caused this crisis, and missed their opportunity to properly voice their concerns). They, on the other hand, try to frame it differently. "We give in so much, but when we ask for something it's suddenly denied!". And "We don't quit. It's just that when Michel goes to Marrakech to sign the deal, we consider ourselves fired from the government".

Assholes. :angry:


In any case: whether you want to blame the N-VA for this mess or not, we are now in a pretty strange situation. It apparenly IS possible and legal to have a government that doesn't represent the majority of voters. It's just that for every potential law change, enough political parties have to be found to agree to it. For the UN migration pact, that was fairly easy (as said: everyone but N-VA and Vlaams belang were on board). But the rest of the political agenda can get pretty strange. Opposition parties like Groen (who mainly focus on the environment) now say things like "yyyyesss...we MIGHT help getting some climate laws getting passed, but we don't want to be pinned down as a party only caring about the environment". This situation clearly isn't what N-VA had in mind and are now claiming/complaining/demanding** that parlement should intervene. The remaining government, however, does something I would describe as "nah na naaaaah...you've quit, so your opinion is but an opinion". N-VA pouts that the parties are "holding a coup", but it's a matter of perception on whether you believe that or not.


In closing comments...that migration pact is slowly shifting to the background. Is it signed? Yes. In name of our country? Yes. So does that mean that N-VA has nothing? I...honestly don't know.

What I do know is that this is all a war for perception. The brexit came out of nowhere. Trump's election came out of "extremely unlikely". And while I can say that N-VA is really neither (heck...their chairman - Bart De Wever - is mayor of Antwerp), I fear that our country is also starting to get far more polarized than it should have been. :(



EDIT: okay...ten days later, and this minority government ("minderheidsregering") is no more. And the whole "who is to blame?" question is even weirder than it was. I'll get to that.

First off: remember that we were scheduled for an election in May. I initially thought that a fall of the government would just speed things up, but apparently that's against the constitution. That may be, but that puts us in the situation of either having an early election for the massive length of 4-5 months, or just faffing along without a government. Knowing our country, it'll most likely be the latter. That's not even a joke: we hold (held?) the world record of forming a government. And with nearly 2 years without a government, what is 5 months really?

...except that forming a government can then only start AFTER election in May. :unsure:

So what has really happened? Well...representing a minority of votes, it's obvious that the government had to change their tune a bit. Vlaams belang isn't an option, N-VA obviously not eager to backtrack on their earlier departure and every center political party in the government, it's only obvious that some leftist ideas are brought out of the fridge ("hey...perhaps keeping global warming under control shouldn't be the very last of our priorities?" /sarcasm). Result: N-VA claimed they "knew" that it was the correct course to bail out, Groen, PS and SP-A (basically the leftist parties) are highly skeptical of this sudden shift, and of course there's that Marrakech thing. Granted: our media would've forgotten about it, but y'know...you can always count on rightwing hooligans to eat up misinterpretations and protest against what the treaty was never about by riotting in Brussels. Well...at least they had the decency to do it in the Europa-zone (while it's in the same street, it's pretty separated from our government).

And then Open VLD made a move. While Charles Michel (MR) was seeking agreement with said lefties, Gwendolyn Rutte (chairwoman of open VLD; basically the Flemish counterpart of MR) twittered that it was never the intention to change anything on what the government initially agreed upon.

*sigh*
I'm all in favor of women in politics, but honestly...this is a stupidity of Brexit-calibre. While Michel tries to find common ground with the opposition, she basically shouts off the rooftops that the only reason said opposition is needed is to help out a government plan that they've been opposing for the last four years. Yes...OF COURSE they'll be eager to help out! :rolleyes:

Result: the opposition (SP-A) files a motion of distrust, Charles Michel offers the resignation of the government to the king and that's that of our government. RIP.

So...who's to blame? Well, take your pick: everyone blames most if not every other party (it's just more fun because unlike in the US, there are more than two parties involved :P ). And everyone's fighting for the narrative.


At this point, I've got no clue what's going to happen. New elections? Another government? Hard to say. Nobody really knows. But wait...you might have recalled me mentioning "the king". That's right: Belgium is a monarchy! We have a king. A king that shakes hands, is part of the furniture when new buildings have to be inaugurated and is the poster child for post stamps, tourists and...erm...other ceremonial ceremonies. He doesn't have political power, of course, because democracy. But for matters like this, it's at least something to cling to.

Our king - Philippe - now has to meet everyone and makes sure everyone calms down enough and do some co-ordination. No idea whether he can order new elections, but I'd say he holds the most influence as of now.







*that's another weird and potentially unique system: Flemish voters can only vote on Flemish parties, Wallons only on French parties. And with our country consisting of roughly 60% Flemish and 40% French people (I'm excluding Brussels here, which...erm...is more or less a mishmash of both), it's virtually impossible to create a government that represents the majority of people, unless they consist of a multitude of parties. In this case: MR was the only Wallonian party, which brings tensions in itself. But in an almost ironical twist: in this situation, these tensions aren't an issue...at all!
**take your pick, depending on YOUR political view :P
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It apparenly IS possible and legal to have a government that doesn't represent the majority of voters.
In dutch we call this a minderheidskabinet. It's possible if no coalition can be worked out between enough parties to create a majority vote but there's still enough people that want to work together in a coalition.

I presume Vlaams belang is a lot like our PVV (Partij voor de vrijheid)? If so, fuck 'em with a rusty rake.

NV-A sounds a lot like our VVD (making populist claims during election period while otherwise being moderatley conservative right wing).

"if it's non-binding, then what's the harm in not signing it?".
The image you give of to other countries. If it's non-binding, signing it means you are willing to tell other countries "yes, we're willing to cooperate and work together to solve this issue". Not signing it on the other hand means you tell other countries "yeah that immigration shit? none of that here, solve your own goddamn problems."

Guess what looks better internationally.
 
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G
Donald Trump and the Brexit are (at least partially) consequences of people being afraid of the changes within the country.

If that's what helps you sleep at night, more power to you, political expert.
 
Read this when it was made but could not think of a salient comment at the time. That said it was before I saw the UN wants to add to hate speech regs stuff.

Saiyan Lusitano said:
If that's what helps you sleep at night, more power to you, political expert.

Do you have another suggestion? Or are you going with the "they were only voted for because there are still a bunch of racist lackwits in the respective countries" notion?
 
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I'm not sure how on-topic this is, and most of my fellow Libertarians would disagree (not that I identify totally with the Libertarian Party to begin with), but I feel that a nation's sovereignty is important for the liberty of the people in that nation. I feel that the unification and open borders between member nations of things like the UN and EU have the potential to undermine national and individual sovereignty. It's kind of hard ti explain right now, but maybe after a few more drinks I can get my ideas out easier.
 
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@Subtle Demise - On the other hand, having open borders means that people are more capable of interacting and gaining new experiences from people who migrate to and from their country, promoting cultural diversity and giving people a wider view of the world.

That said, this pact is entirely non-binding and doesn't introduce any laws, it's more akin to saying as a country "yes, we're willing to work on this". The US saying no on this I find very uh... telling of what the POTUS thinks about foreign nations, international relationships and immigrants. (Hint: he doesn't like either very much since he's a bigot who doesn't even slightly seem to understand the value of keeping track of your longest standing allies while at the same time getting all nice n squeezy with Russia, China and North Korea, countries who all have issues and should not be considered allies to the US for varying reasons.)

It's a non binding pact that refusing to sign only makes your country look backwards, stupid and ignorant of global issues that will eventually result into it affecting your country. Not to mention potential indirect strains this brings with diplomatic relationships between countries which can affect trade between these countries which as a result would do nothing but damage the economy of the country that refuses to sign the pact.

Long story short; not signing a non-binding pact is kinda stupid, particularly if its a universal agreement on issues that affect everyone.
 
@Ev1l0rd Usually when there’s a talk about immigration they usually combine legal immigrants with illegal immigrants in statistics. It makes illegal immigration look better. But when you seperate the two the statistics looks different. And that one separation that so many people miss changes the entire argument.

What most people are against is illegal immigration. Practically most countries on the planet doesn’t just let people in, they usually run a background check. Legal Immigrants they are fine with.
 
@SG854 The hypocrisy I find in that is that most people who push 'legal' immigration are still against granting asylum to people who seek it. Which is a perfectly legal option in the US. Not to mention they oppose implementing a path to citizenship or other streamlined methods for becoming a legal citizen.
 
Like for example the Heritage Foundation found that unlawful immigrants receives $24,721 in government benefits but only put in $10,334 in taxes. Which produced an annual deficit of $14,387 per household.

When you combine both in statistics they put in a lot more. But when you seperate the 2, legal immigrants put in more then illegal ones. This is just the U.S. example. Other countries have to do this to if they want to know the actual impact of illegal immigration.

https://www.heritage.org/immigratio...lawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer
 
@Xzi asylum would be if the country they came from is war torn or destroyed from some natural disaster. People are ok with asylum, but even then they just can’t come in, they have to go through a background check.

There are lots of immigrants that don’t come from war torn places and don’t qualify for asylum.
 
@SG854 Fair enough, many come from unstable banana republics that the US had a hand in destabilizing, but even then they're probably better off taking their chances with their despots rather than Trump's America which is guaranteed to hate/villify them.
 
@Xzi There are lots of people that want to come to U.S. because there is so much opportunity here. Your average poor person in the U.S. would be considered middle class in Mexico.

Your average poor person in the states has more housing space then the average European. Not your average poor European, but average European period.

No matter how bad people may perceive the U.S. they still see better life in Trumps America then they do from their place of Origin that has worse conditions. They would have stayed in their home country if Trunps America was worse.
 
Wow...many posts. I won't respond to everything (it went sort of off-topic in the end...I really can't comment in the sort of needed detail on US migration right now), but it's certainly interesting. :)

@Ev1l0rd : I'm very familiar with the term (I'm Dutch myself), but "minderheidskabinet" probably wouldn't be understood by non-Dutch speakers. ;)

Vlaams belang is indeed the political same as PVV (Filip De Winter and Geert Wilders are best buddies). I only partially share that opinion with you. You can't have a real democracy if you don't allow opinions you don't like.

@Saiyan Lusitano : you're entitled to disagree. Bring decent arguments to your line of thought and I might consider it. Your post isn't convincing anyone.

@Subtle Demise : they certainly have the potential. We already have local politicians grumbling that Europe sets the rules and they can't just change laws according to how they see fit. But apart from a few things (like how the Greece depth situation was handled), I don't really see much wrong with EU legislation. It's just that the media barely focuses on what the EU's long term visions are. Right now, the EU pretty much exclusively makes the news in terms of the brexit negotiation. It's certainly not unimportant, but the EU is - or at least should be - much more than this sort of bickering.
 
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@SG854 "No matter how bad people may perceive the U.S. they still see better life in Trumps America then they do from their place of Origin that has worse conditions. They would have stayed in their home country if Trunps America was worse."

Well they quickly fucking learned better when we tear gassed women and children at the border, didn't they? :O
 
Well, that escalated in a bloody mess. Hope your country gets itself sorted out.
 

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