1. urbanman2004

    urbanman2004 GBAtemp Regular
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    Rather they delay it instead of becoming a guinea pig beta test for a broken game title in an unplayable state.
     
  2. DANTENDO

    DANTENDO I Won year sub Edge mag 1996 hot topic digitiser
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    Mayb these developers need to be told by us a game doesn't hav to hav tons and tons of content - games tht take 40 hours or so wil be just as good as 50 hours - we all want our games full of content but most of these openworld games are full of side stuff to do which is great and I luv it but I'm sure they could cut it down a bit and we wouldn't miss it-and tht should reduce ther time in development by few months
     
  3. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer
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    I have played those bare and empty open world games, or if you prefer see the 1990s and early 2000s on the PC... would not fly today. If they manage to crack proper procedural generation then maybe. Also is the delay for side content or to flesh out mechanics?
     
  4. Ev1l0rd

    Ev1l0rd (⌐◥▶◀◤) Developer - noirscape
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    Never fucking mind then. Screw CDPR. Crunch is bad and if you're going to delay the title, the assumption should've been that you don't do crunch, because that's what the extra time should've been meaning to avoid.
     
  5. DANTENDO

    DANTENDO I Won year sub Edge mag 1996 hot topic digitiser
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    I didn't say bare bones - my msg ment say a game has 30 side missions it would still be fine if has 20 or 15
     
  6. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer
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    Why does crunch seem to bother you so much? Is it not part of the industry (and again one of the reasons I am not in it -- being paid awfully, dealing with sub par code and working my bollocks off... no thanks). I am still not sure why you would assume delay translated as "does not mean long hours to get it done", delay just means delay unless otherwise stated. It is quite the odd jump to make.

    Can be the same thing and only a handful of side missions (or more specifically a handful of interesting side missions) can still leave there being bugger all to do.
     
  7. Ev1l0rd

    Ev1l0rd (⌐◥▶◀◤) Developer - noirscape
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    Just because it's part of the industry doesn't make it acceptable.

    You yourself already say you don't like or plan to enter the industry because of the awful working conditions. That doesn't change that it's still bad for the people working in it and that it oughta be criticized for those working conditions.

    As to why I assumed it, animal crossings delay was specifically to make sure Nintendo employees wouldn't be overburdened by the games release. I guess I projected it on cdpr in the hopes that in light of their criticism they'd changed course and did it for similar reasons.
     
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  8. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer
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    Is it not acceptable though? In my case I am all about that easy life but others do like to struggle and strive and make things, and being nice programmers and whatever else they usually have an exit with the same skills in a nicely paid field if they so desire.

    There are things I am up for criticising as an outsider, and if there was an industry revolt I would certainly pay attention but for the most part it seems to be an accepted part of life that people willingly engage with rather than some dirty secret (see something like euthanasia with doctors). Criticism in that case seems utterly redundant and pointless.

    So one game was nominally said to be delayed to prevent it, to make the leap to that is/should be the case is a rather large and blind one.
     
  9. Dax_Fame

    Dax_Fame Annoying Member
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    Gotta carefully work the micro-transactions into the game
     
  10. Pipistrele

    Pipistrele GBAtemp Fan
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    Still not acceptable - in fact, that's why there's so much noise about poor working conditions and pushes towards unionization lately. Besides, there's a difference between "struggle and strive and make thing" and, say, "overworking yourself to the point of mental and physical damage and literal PTSD".

    There's a lot of accepted things in different industries - for example, child labor, sweatshops, unpaid overtime, invasion of privacy, etc. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be brought up, criticized and deal with - if we won't do that, then industry revolt is out of question in the first place, and we'll just stick with status quo of horrible working conditions.
     
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  11. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer
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    Has there been a push for game dev unions? I saw the game journalists variously shoot themselves in the foot by forming them but nothing really for game devs. I agree there is a difference between those two things but is that what is happening here? Other than carpal tunnel/RSI and sitting at a desk making people fat bastards, all of which apply to a dozen fields, are we seeing damage and actual PTSD? If we are seeing PTSD I am going to have to wonder as well -- if it is happening then treat it but why would people be getting such when it is typically traumatic situations?

    With the possibly exception of unpaid overtime those are happily called bad things by most, having to work hard/long hours is a different matter. This seems like so much "can't stand the heat then get out of the kitchen", and in this case their problems will likely get solved by doing so.
     
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  12. ThoD

    ThoD GBATemp Addict (apparently), but more like "bored"
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    So bare open world games are bad? The entire S.T.A.L.K.E.R. series would like a word with you:rofl2:

    Let's be honest, Nintendo while employing some VERY shit strategies around it's game releases still has some decency. They never do crunch for more than a week even if needed and should games/systems flop, it's whoever's in charge that takes responsibility (eg: WiiU failing had the CEO and all the high ranking staff take pay cuts instead of firing employees). CDPR isn't the same, it's been proven to be one of the worst companies to work for in the AAA industry, so of course they'd have crunch even on delays!


    There HAS been a push for unions, repeatedly even, it's just that they get squashed by the bosses at AAA companies before they can even properly start the union, let alone actually do something to improve things. Huge companies have a LOT of push, a single word from them and some twisting of facts is enough to force lower-ranked devs to leave the industry for good, things are absurd nowadays! And yes, we ARE seeing PTSD and a ton of other disorders happening, things are basically just a step away from Japan where people DIE ON THE JOB from overwork working office jobs! No rest and a lot of pressure can cause heart attacks among other things, but of course you'll ignore that because you only want games, not proper working conditions. Let me remind you one thing though, all good games ever made were made with hardly any crunch if any, crunch games just lack the inspiration to make something good and are instead shat out of companies' assholes, how can an original game be made when the people making it are too tired to think straight? Same goes for a lot of recent buggy games, devs are too tired to pay full attention to what they are developing causing oversights which result in bugs.
     
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  13. Pipistrele

    Pipistrele GBAtemp Fan
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    There was a push, a ton of it in fact. Protests are being organized, whistleblowers started appearing, and it's not a coincidence that the issue of overwork culture in gaming industry gradually became a major topic in 2019. And again, if you think the only thing intense gamedev conditions amount to is capral tunnel and getting fat, you probably missed reports on Canadian devs having mental breakdowns mid-work during the crunch, or increasing practice of hiring therapists to control "stress casualties" within development teams (instead of, well, looking after them in the first place), or pretty much every piece of news about working conditions in Konami. If you want to look into it yourself, there are some extensive reports on NetherRealm Studios, which go into details on how its developers worked for 100-hour/week shifts on an ultraviolent game and gained legitimate mental issues (insomnia, phobias, etc.) while higher-ups did jack crap and often left job early.

    As for "don't step into the kitchen" mentality, I'll just call BS on that and paraphrase our chunky boi JIm Sterling: "Crunch isn't a triumph of work dedication, but a failure of management". Nobody benefits from crunch periods but big-wigs and executives who most of the time don't participate in crunch in the first place. Just the fact that it's overtime, yet it's still mandatory and expected, is an issue in itself - workers should be entitled to reasonable work hours and adequate work-life balance regardless of industry, and deflecting it via "well, just find another job" is kind of piss-poor excuse for blaming people on not wanting to sacrifice their time with family and long-term health.
     
    Last edited by Pipistrele, Jan 18, 2020
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  14. Ev1l0rd

    Ev1l0rd (⌐◥▶◀◤) Developer - noirscape
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    @FAST6191 @Pipistrele @ThoD - I feel it might also be useful to show some sources on this so uh...

    Let's start with the infamous Rockstar Spouse letter. This letter was as it implies written by the wives of people who work for R*. It's anonymous because Rockstar is infamous for getting litigious when people try to call them out on their shit.

    We also have the crunch going on at Epic Games' Fortnite division article from Polygon. I will point out here that it would outwardly appear that EG did eventually change course and is now taking a more relaxed approach to the notion of crunch (by steering away from their high-speed constant update cycle), which indicates that this kind of thing becoming known and being treated as a serious issue is having an effect on the industry for the better.

    Finally, we can't forget to make mention of Bioware, whose aimless development of Anthem led to the game being crunched out over the course of one year, which is suspected to be a large factor as to why the game is so barebones.
     
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  15. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer
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    Have you played the original S.T.A.L.K.E.R. without mods lately?
    Also they were not bare games, nor particularly open world -- everything funnelled you to new and interesting places and as such rank up there with good designs. Compare it to something like Dungeon Lords instead if you want what I was thinking of there.

    Care to link some of these calls? I saw all the stuff for the online journalism set and I would have expected those to cover such things fairly extensively. Instead I have randoms at kotaku writing about it off their own back and not much else, and it is not like all the other places won't whine, bitch, piss and moan at the drop of a hat.

    As for never made... I have been reading stories of devs forgoing social life to develop games on a shoestring budget since the Amiga (about when I started paying any attention) and earlier stories of the atari and like that I read after that painted much the same picture.

    From where I sit crunch is akin to overtime to get things done, something that most others get thrust upon them from time to time. It is not a great way to run a company, and again one reason I don't develop games.
    I don't know if I would put the buggy nature of more recent games at the feet of tired devs. From what I have seen many in gaming world are not so very hot to begin with and don't adopt best best practices (see how slowly version control gets adopted and how testing gets done by testers without version freezes and whatever else), on top of not having great tools (though I am not expecting console makers to have tools on par with whatever MS have spent decades now doing for Windows). Whenever I pick apart games I have seen mistakes I would not expect a tired dev to make (those tending to be typos or "fuck it just use bubble sort").
    On forcing devs out then is this going in the west? Japan is an interesting one for that but I was not seeing it elsewhere.

    What link between " ultraviolent game" and the rest of that is there? Odd to bring up such a thing.

    I don't see how the can't stand the heat thing is linked there. I do agree proper time management is a good thing and crunch is no fun at all. If these are all nice programmers though then they can do the same tasks in another field and get paid handsomely (I saw some whine about pay rates in San Francisco a while back, to which I wondered why they would take the job of the rates weren't competitive), probably right next door to where they work now (especially California, Washington state, New York, Texas, Vancouver, Montreal or Toronto which covers most North American locations where game dev, and coincidentally tech and/or finance business, is located). It is not like they are skilled manual labour in a one horse/one factory town or unskilled labour in an even more desolate place. They choose to engage with such conditions and have endless options otherwise. Some of the artists might have a slightly harder time elsewhere as some of those don't have the most robust film/TV industry to slot into in those areas but most still have some considerable stuff.
     
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  16. Jiehfeng

    Jiehfeng a.k.a, Your Maitreya
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    I can picture that man with the big cigar in his mouth, legs on the table, just waving his right hand like buzzing off a fly, to the lower employee in charge who is by the door of his high tower office. "Just delay it and don't ask me why, both of us will get richer, now leave."
     
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