Xbox gave RROD after X-clamp fix

Discussion in 'Xbox 360 - Games & Content' started by Sportsmaniac1322, Mar 21, 2009.

Mar 21, 2009
  1. Sportsmaniac1322
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    Member Sportsmaniac1322 GBAtemp Maniac

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    Three weeks back my friend's Xbox gave a RROD, so I successfully revived it with the X-clamp fix. Well just today it's got a RROD again, this time with a 0103 error code. He did some research on it, and he says it's a GPU error. Since I just did an X-clamp fix, I'm assuming that isn't the problem. So how do I fix his Xbox?
     


  2. Joe88

    Member Joe88 [λ]

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    did you do the x-clamp on both (cpu/gpu)?
    some kits only come with the parts for one
     
  3. Sportsmaniac1322
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    Member Sportsmaniac1322 GBAtemp Maniac

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    Yeah I did it on both. I even cleaned off both chips and put arctic silver on both.
     
  4. lenselijer

    Member lenselijer GBAtemp Maniac

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    call with microsoft to check if you still have warranty, be sure to put the stock xclamps back when you sent it in.
     
  5. Sonicslasher

    Member Sonicslasher In Law we trust.

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    Pretty sure that opening your Xbox 360 violates the TOS. That would mean that your warranty is void.
     
  6. War

    Member War Take it easy~

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    Unless you carefully removed the sticker and placed it back after you were done.
     
  7. FAST6191

    Reporter FAST6191 Techromancer

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    Maybe you need clarity on the difference between manufacturers/sales warranty and implied warranty:
    http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cos53.htm
    This being said I am not sure how this plays out.

    Finally what difference does it make, if it were pure user error on the part of Sportsmaniac1322 (say he tried to solder something and borked it) then I might be inclined to say ripping people off is not on but for this then MS can pay.
     
  8. raulpica

    Supervisor raulpica With your drill, thrust to the sky!

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    Most of time, if it RRODs again, the X-Clamp fix wasn't well done. It could also be a case of "unfixability". I've found that the Zephyrs and Falcons can't be properly fixed, and will almost certainly RROD again.

    So.. it's a Xenon? If it's a Xenon, did you try fastening/loosening some of the screws? The X-Clamp fix needs to be equilibrated perfectly (no places more tight than others or more than the necessary), otherwise it'll RROD again.

    BTW, try concentrating on the GPU X-Clamp fix, the problem is probably a broken solder joint around there.
     
  9. Sportsmaniac1322
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    Member Sportsmaniac1322 GBAtemp Maniac

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    So basically what you're saying is that I need to do the X-clamp fix over again, but worry more about the GPU then the CPU? If it's a broken solder joint, then would overheating the GPU fix it?

    I don't know exactly what model his motherboard is, but it's definitely one of the earlier ones, so I hope that it is fixable.
     
  10. lenselijer

    Member lenselijer GBAtemp Maniac

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    i've fixed alot of 360 with xclamp but the problem will always come back, sometimes in 1 week,sometimes after 3 months.

    you get 3 year warranty from microsoft, i sent mine in without warranty sticker at all and got it replaced with a brand new one.
     
  11. Yoshimashin

    Member Yoshimashin Penguin Spy

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    Buy a used one at Gamestop and swap the insides.
     
  12. Commadore64

    Member Commadore64 GBAtemp Regular

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    I have purchased xbox 360's off of eBay with RROD
    so far 4 for 4 I have fixed following this video
    and the $6 in materials from Lowes
    1 of the xbox's gave me trouble but this seemed to fix it...
    Take apart xbox
    remove heat sinks and clean off the artic silver
    reapply new artic silver and put back the heat sinks and finger tighten the bolts - I mean once you feel a little tension, stop spinning
    plug in unit and unplug the fans
    wait until you get 2 flashing lights - you will smell the heat of the heat sinks
    unplug and tighten up the screws on heat sinks - normal tighten but not too hard..just normal
    plug back in and keep fans unplugged
    turn back on and wait for 2 flashing lights - (smell the heat again?)
    shut off unit and plug in fans
    turn back on - fans will be very very loud as it is cooling off cpu
    within a few minutes the fans will quiet down

    I never had a RROD problem again
     
  13. Sportsmaniac1322
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    Member Sportsmaniac1322 GBAtemp Maniac

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    Now I'm really confused. His Xbox is switching error codes, sometimes giving 1 RROD, sometimes 3. So far he's had error codes 1433, 4141, 4143, and 4142. I don't know what the deal is anymore. Can anyone diagnose what's going on inside his Xbox?
     
  14. Commadore64

    Member Commadore64 GBAtemp Regular

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    1433, 4141, 4143, and 4142
    *There is no 4...it is 0 so the errors are
    1033 -(not yet known)
    0101 -unknown
    0103 -CPU Error/ CPU Overheating - see solution for error 0102
    0102 -unknown error

    * though it's most likely GPU related literally means the console does not know what is wrong. possibly a short or cold solder joint somewhere. So far there is 1 major theory for what causes most of these errors is that the Ram, CPU, or GPU are not soldered properly to the mother board due either to poor manufacturing or excessive heat up and cool down cycles that stress, weaken and eventually break the soldered connection.
    There are two theories to fixing this one deals with the "X" clamps that hold down the chips. The other involves re-Heating the chips. DO NOT attempt either of these if your console is still under warranty. If your console is still under warranty return it to the store where it was purchased or call MS to have it replaced. I have also heard of limited success by simply switching the AV cable from "HDTV" mode to "TV" mode.



    Courtesy of Llamma
     
  15. Sportsmaniac1322
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    Member Sportsmaniac1322 GBAtemp Maniac

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    His Xbox is way out of warrenty, so there's no issues there. Plus the fact that I've already opened and basically destroyed his warranty sticker, the warrenty is gone either way. Do you guys think I should re-attempt the X-clamp fix? If I do a better job, do you think it would fix the RROD issues (hopefully for a longer period of time)?
     
  16. FAST6191

    Reporter FAST6191 Techromancer

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    Re warranty: you can buy stickers if you are so inclined, a couple of dollars is what they usually go for.

    Re red ring: it is cowboy fixing but grab the original xclamp and put it back on and swap the new one for the GPU/CPU (whichever one you did not do), I would not rely on this for long term use but for fault diagnosis it should work OK.
    If you want to go one stage further you can actually get the correct pressure with two diagonally opposed bolts although it is damn hard to do. Despite what is said you can usually find the appropriate size bolts in shops although without either grinding them down or drilling out the metal case you can not use them in the original case.
    You can also abuse your existing clamps and use them as a fixed clamp if you want (you bend round the sections to use as bolt guides)
    The next stage is pro level fixing (heating up the chip is very crude but it is the same idea as fixing it properly), a proper lab is needed for this sort of thing and just blasting it with hot air is not on as far as I am concerned (the motherboard is already under some stress).

    Of course it could also be solder whiskers in which case is it top level lab or try again with a new xbox.
     
  17. War

    Member War Take it easy~

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    I would say just try again :\ The warranty is already void, so there's really nothing to lose. Just make sure that your friend knows that there's a pretty damn good chance that he's gonna have to get a new 360. Even if you do manage to fix it again, I really doubt it's gonna last forever...
     
  18. Sportsmaniac1322
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    Member Sportsmaniac1322 GBAtemp Maniac

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    Microsoft really screwed up didn't they [​IMG]

    @FAST6191: I already threw away both of the X-clamps that I replaced because I figured I'd never need them again, so I have no clamps to put back on the motherboard. That's probably stupid on my part, but how would I have known?

    If I re-attempt the x-clamp fix, do you think that would fix the problem at least temporarily? I'm nowhere near knowledgeable enough to try and perform the more long term fixes that FAST6191 is describing. If someone else could do it, I might even be willing to spend a little money on his behalf. Getting a new Xbox is basically out of the question, since my friend is basically broke [​IMG]. So should I try the x-clamp fix again, or find someone else to do a hopefully longer lasting fix?
     
  19. FAST6191

    Reporter FAST6191 Techromancer

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    It is widely believed that a combination of stress, creep and poor design regarding both of them (there is a reason we do not tend to use high end electronics in fixed setups like this) is what causes RROD (either that or whiskers which is still poor design, more on whiskers: http://www.cinemag.biz/rohs.html . There is a reason MS would rather send new ones than repair them).
    If you are a fan of irony MS are not alone, I had to use the same techniques to fix my motherboard a few months back.

    Minimising these factors should increase lifespan.
    Stress: the motherboard is poorly supported and polyweave boards are not so good at exerting forces, to fix this you reduce the effect. More properly placed supports at better tolerances is the aim of the game here.

    Creep: creep is one of the primary failure methods of metal at high temperature, long story short higher temperatures mess it up and higher stress messes it up. Stress is above and temperature is easy enough to solve.

    The theory: rather than use pins or a zif socket or one of the usual methods MS decided to essentially float a chip on a series of solder balls. The only real difference between soldering and brazing and to a lesser extent MIG welding is the temperatures involved (solder being the lowest). Creep as I mentioned is a failure method that affects things at high temperatures (usually 0.4 to 0.6 of the melting temperature in Kelvin depending on the stress, material and a few other factors), if you want more is here http://thayer.dartmouth.edu/defmech/ (chapter 1 has some diagrams)
    This is also why should think very long and very hard about using solder in a mechanical joint let alone as a mechanical joint.

    Naturally under stress in a different direction to what is needed (twisting of the board), combined with high temperatures and bad clamp design that provides little force these joints mess up either by essentially making a dry join or by a proper open circuit failure; either way though the GPU or CPU (it can easily mess up with just a single join going) on your 360 goes and up come the red rings. I posit that sometimes the earlier failures where a "video cable out" errors comes up are actually RROD a few hours (minutes?) before it happens.

    By reheating the chip (the "towel fix" is a very very crude way of doing this) you can abuse creep for your own ends and hopefully redo some of the joins.
    The xclamp fix also uses a similar method but it is a bit more targeted and it aims to stem the effects mentioned above. The additional stress may also help joins reform and stay that way.
    Heating the chip is even more directed.
    A proper rework can even fix whiskers but as I mentioned we are talking serious equipment and skill to pull this one off, not something I see available all that often (removal, cleaning/reworking and reattaching are each epic tasks) and certainly not for fixing 360s.

    Also note by using high temperatures and powered equipment you do however increase the risk of what is considered to be the primary failure* method of all microelectronics otherwise known as electromigration ( http://www.csl.mete.metu.edu.tr/Electromigration/emig.htm ), also know that here the high temperatures cause a lower strength of material speeding the process up (no idea of timeframe but exponentially is not outside what I could expect having played in overclocking circles for a while now). Heating the chip avoids this somewhat by ideally not being powered during the event.
    Also what ratio of the subsequent failures are due to this or the joins failing again I doubt anyone knows as the same error codes would appear but I can see it being a good ratio (again overclocking).

    *this and bad solder joins would be one and two in my experience closely followed by corrosion when looking at industrial machinery/cars.
     
  20. Burt0

    Member Burt0 GBAtemp Regular

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    Just posted this in another thread but I though it may help you too.

    I did the x-clamp fix on my xbox ages ago and after a few months it fucked up again.

    So I removed the thermal paste, re-applied some fresh paste and did the fix again (including the overheating part). Seemed to work for about a day then it stuffed up again.

    After that I started experimenting with different washers and combinations, like 1 flat washed, 1 spring washer, 2 normal washers and so on. Also I played around with the tightness of the screws. After a while a found that 1 flat washer on the underside of the motherboard (just to protect the copper pad from the turning screw) and 1 flat washer then 1 spring washer between the GPU the heatsink with just the right amount of tension worked great.

    This way you dont have to do the overheating part (it should fire up straight away). Although I had to keep tightening/loosening the screws to find the right amount of pressure. I found that doing all the screws up as tight as you can didn't work for me (unless i overheated it and then it was only temporary).

    I do have holes drilled in my chassis so it was easy for me to have the xbox half together so i could quickly turn it off and adjust the screws then try again.

    Hope this helps.
     

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