World War III discussion

Dark_Ansem

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I would also like to add one thing about Russia: Putin has been murdering dissenting high profile oligarch. But this will backfire for two reasons.

First, those people are not replaceable. They're capable, educated, experienced and competent, his yesmen are largely imbeciles put there because of loyalty, not competence, with no real experience.

Secondly, those people are rich AND powerful, and I sincerely doubt they will stand-by waiting to be murdered.
 

Nikokaro

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... and I sincerely doubt they will stand-by waiting to be murdered.
Sure. But the Russian government is a den of spies, traitors, liars, sneaky, etc. and the only way to escape is to flee hiding abroad or pretend to be dead, simulate your own funeral and then change identity ... 🤣
 
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Creamu

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Ah well, it's complicated. Let me make it as brief as I can, as I'm also working.
  • The truth is, China right now does NOT have the military strength to invade Taiwan without burning it to the ground and massive losses, which would completely defeat the point of the invasion, since they want to annex Taiwan and incorporate their technological discoveries - plus there is the fact that Taiwanese and Chinese are not hostile to each other, so a massacre of taiwanese people and chinese army would NOT go well with the populace, and there's a billion of them, and they can easily overpower any domestic police force;
Good point.
    • Therefore, about Taiwan right now there is a lot of posturing and gestures like giving pandas to taiwanese zoos, but I think it's unlikely an invasion will happen, therefore the USA
I hope you are right!
  • Concerning the relationship between China and Russia, this is my belief:
    • If China could, they'd leave Putin to the Americans as fast as the speed of light and refuse to touch them with a bargepole;
      • Unfortunately, they cannot because the Chinese gov has spent FAR too much time and soft power being Putin's chums, therefore if they did so this would be another creak in the Party's reputation of peerlessness, which is the only reason they are still in power, so I think they'll taper down support to a minimum to ensure they don't upset USA or Russia, but without any meaningfulness either.
Okay, that sounds good.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...d-boris-johnson-downing-street-no-10-drinking

The conservative party of the UK is the perfect representation of an Elite completely detached from reality, The article says that while the UK was in COVID lockdown the Prime Minister and his entourage were having wild parties, with rivers of booze to the point people were vomiting.
That makes them look like they tell their populus things they themselves don't believe in, and force them to comply to rules they themselves don't think they are worth following.
10 years ago, this would have led to mass resignations, a GE and the Tories never in power for two decades. But in Post-Brexit UK, after the brainwash carried out by Rupert Murdoch and Putin, this behaviour is almost justified, which is nuts.
Rupert Murdoch and Putin are brainwashing the UK population?
Of course, the fault of this lies with the English, rather than the British, because they have a secret obsession for being ruled by rich white men with posh accents.
Yes, the bankers.
I can't speak for everyone, but this isn't necessarily true. This is what the right-wing press would have you believe, however, as part of culture wars.
I see, I only look at it from an outside perspective.
I don't think so. I would say the opposite, as our buddy here has already pointed out. In exchange for what ideas? Neo-communist? Neo-Nazi? Absurd. There is no alternative. Freedom is in the DNA of Europeans, and they would not give it up for anything in the world. Other ideologies will never appeal to the masses. The rest is talk.
But why did they vote for explicitly totalitarian regimes in the last century then?
I would also like to add one thing about Russia: Putin has been murdering dissenting high profile oligarch. But this will backfire for two reasons.

First, those people are not replaceable. They're capable, educated and competent, his yesmen are largely imbeciles put there because of loyalty, not competence.

Secondly, those people are rich AND powerful, and I sincerely doubt they will stand-by waiting to be murdered.
I personally believe that when oligarchs get so powerful that they could contra a dictator, they themselves have been to powerful to begin with.

I will now do some work, and may not respond. I will come to your post evenutally. Thank you for your contribution!
 

Nikokaro

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But why did they vote for explicitly totalitarian regimes in the last century then?
If you are referring to Fascism and Nazism, in both cases a handful of men took power with violence, explicit or threatened, and relying on the fear and selfishness of the masses. Like Communism, it was an experiment that man had to do himself, to realize its intrinsic madness and its counterproductive results for everyone. I am optimistic, today I don't think it will be possible to fall into the same mistakes.
 
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Nikokaro

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If I may add a few words about the title of the thread, Europe will do everything to avoid a direct war with Russia: it has too much to lose. Bringing the rawness, violence and ruthlessness of the conflict into our home, losing our loved ones, our property, and then the rape, the humiliation, the torture, the corpes, the limbs and the vivid blood on the walls: see our precious and artistic Berlin , Paris, Madrid, Rome bombed and razed to the ground: even the simple idea makes our rulers shake the legs, and they are more likely to bow down to the enemy than to witness this terrible sight.

While russian leaders have no conscientious scruples in sacrificing even their own citizens, mere numbers, in the name of the superior Russian patriotic ideology, western rulers are imbued with a widespread moral, humanitarian and empathic sensitivity that rejects the suffering and sacrifice of even an innocent person in the name of past traditions and abstract notions, but also, more selfishly, do not tolerate the idea of losing the well-being, comforts and quiet to which them are addicted, and which them cannot do without.

PS. Forgive my poor english. By now you will have understood that I am not a native english speaker (writer).😅
 
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Creamu

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If you are referring to Fascism and Nazism, in both cases a handful of men took power with violence, explicit or threatened, and relying on the fear and selfishness of the masses.
That is actually not true.
Like Communism, it was an experiment that man had to do himself, to realize its intrinsic madness and its counterproductive results for everyone. I am optimistic, today I don't think it will be possible to fall into the same mistakes.
I think we might be in for a suprsie the books they were burning were to a large extend about transgender operations. There are alot of parallels accumilating. Lets hope for the best.
If I may add a few words about the title of the thread, Europe will do everything to avoid a direct war with Russia: it has too much to lose. Bringing the rawness, violence and ruthlessness of the conflict into our home, losing our loved ones, our property, and then the rape, the humiliation, the torture, the corpes, the limbs and the vivid blood on the walls: see our precious and artistic Berlin , Paris, Madrid, Rome bombed and razed to the ground: even the simple idea makes our rulers shake the legs, and they are more likely to bow down to the enemy than to witness this terrible sight.
I agree. I don't quite know what a world war in this day in age looks like in detail at all. If China grabs Tainwan, the USA as the world police will be so humiliated, that it might strike against its own population.
While russian leaders have no conscientious scruples in sacrificing even their own citizens, mere numbers, in the name of the superior Russian patriotic ideology, western rulers are imbued with a widespread moral, humanitarian and empathic sensitivity that rejects the suffering and sacrifice of even an innocent person in the name of past traditions and abstract notions, but also, more selfishly, do not tolerate the idea of losing the well-being, comforts and quiet to which them are addicted, and which them cannot do without.
What about the massacre and allaround pointless wars in the middle-east?
PS. Forgive my poor english. By now you will have understood that I am not a native english speaker (writer).😅
No problem at all
 

Nikokaro

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...That is actually not true.
I explained myself wrongly. What I meant was this: while Hitler's party initially amassed support by appealing to the national interests of the working class and fears (toward Bolshevism and Marxism, strangers, outsiders, those who are different...), once in power it changed its face and twisted its initial program, establishing a dictatorship and stifling all freedom, sowing terror among the people, eliminating political opponents, Jews, homosexuals, the mentally ill, etc.
All this far beyond the interests and intentions of the majority of the German people.

Sorry if I went off topic. This is to reiterate that supporting the ideas of the "extreme right" (neo-Nazis, neo-fascism or the like) would mean preparing to give up one's freedom (of thought and action) and well-being sacrificed in favor of discipline, order and the national interest, and no sane people want that, especially in this day and age.
 
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Creamu

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I explained myself wrongly. What I meant was this: while Hitler's party initially amassed support by appealing to the national interests of the working class and fears (toward Bolshevism and Marxism, strangers, outsiders, those who are different...), once in power it changed its face and twisted its initial program, establishing a dictatorship and stifling all freedom, sowing terror among the people, eliminating political opponents, Jews, homosexuals, the mentally ill, etc.
All this far beyond the interests and intentions of the majority of the German people.

Sorry if I went off topic. This is to reiterate that supporting the ideas of the "extreme right" (neo-Nazis, neo-fascism or the like) would mean preparing to give up one's freedom (of thought and action) and well-being sacrificed in favor of discipline, order and the national interest, and no sane people want that, especially in this day and age.
I see your point. To be fair though, there are people who would prefer to have the option to say whatever they want about jews, homosexuals, transgender people, people of color etc. Yet there is a climate, that people fear to share their opinion and if people feel restricted to even share their thoughts, how much freedom is there really.
Does anyone else remember when some people believed WW3 would be triggered, because the US drone striked a general in Iran? Things seemed so much more calm back then.
yes things are getting increasingly unhinged. Iran is another important piece on the stage of world conflict.
 
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Dark_Ansem

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I see your point. To be fair though, there are people who would prefer to have the option to say whatever they want about jews, homosexuals, transgender people, people of color etc. Yet there is a climate, that people fear to share their opinion and if people feel restricted to even share their thoughts, how much freedom is there really.
You're mixing up freedom of speech with freedom from consequences. The former always exist. The latter does NOT need to exist, because being a bitch and spreading hate are not behaviours that should be tolerated, since we have seen the consequences of that, in the not so distant past.
 

Creamu

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You're mixing up freedom of speech with freedom from consequences. The former always exist. The latter does NOT need to exist, because being a bitch and spreading hate are not behaviours that should be tolerated, since we have seen the consequences of that, in the not so distant past.
It is not the american conception of freedom of speech, I dont believe that americans for example feel as passionate for those issues than the issue of freedom of speech. Look at it from the persepctive of people that dont share your sensibilities, they might see you as the mirror image of what you oppose.
 

Viri

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I don't recall that ever being a cause for WW3? And he really was a nasty POS
He indeed was, and he deserved the death that he got. But after he got droned, people online were freaking out like WW3 was about to happen. Iran attacked a US embassy, and shot down a Ukrainian flight, that had 0 US citizens, that took off from their own air port, and denied it at first. That was such an odd time.
 
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Dark_Ansem

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It is not the american conception of freedom of speech, I dont believe that americans for example feel as passionate for those issues than the issue of freedom of speech. Look at it from the persepctive of people that dont share your sensibilities, they might see you as the mirror image of what you oppose.
It's not about "sharing my sensibilities", it's about whether one is right or wrong. Relativism can only go so far.
 
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Dark_Ansem

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Doesnt sound very tolerant, why dont you consider the perspective of others?
Because their perspective is wrong. Hating gay people because they're gay is fucked up, and doesn't belong in society. Last time someone went on claiming to hate jews because they're "god-killers", World War 2 happened.

While everyone is entitled to their perspective, perspectives themselves are NOT equal.
 

Creamu

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Because their perspective is wrong. Hating gay people because they're gay is fucked up, and doesn't belong in society. Last time someone went on claiming to hate jews because they're "god-killers", World War 2 happened.

While everyone is entitled to their perspective, perspectives themselves are NOT equal.
Okay, so what is your suggestion is to be done to people that simply dont see things your way.

To get back on topic the afgahns for example did fight a long and hard war to oppose things like those values and the end of it was an ambaressment to the USA on the world stage that might have contributed to Putin feeling morilized enough to go for Ukraine.
 

Dark_Ansem

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To get back on topic the afgahns for example did fight a long and hard war to oppose things like those values and the end of it was an ambaressment to the USA on the world stage that might have contributed to Putin feeling morilized enough to go for Ukraine.
Not a really relevant example is it? Afghans were militarily invaded, which is nowhere close to "disagreeing about gay people".
Okay, so what is your suggestion is to be done to people that simply dont see things your way.
My way? I'm a nobody with no political responsibilities whatsoever. Which gives me both powerlessness and freedom.
 
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Creamu

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Not a really relevant example is it? Afghans were militarily invaded, which is nowhere close to "disagreeing about gay people".
Well they were taking down the rainbow flag as america left and change the law around sexuality quite drastically.
My way? I'm a nobody with no political responsibilities whatsoever. Which gives me both powerlessness and freedom.
I mean what should be done to people who simply see freedom of speech as a higher value as the subjects discussed above, in you view.
 
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