Why vista should have been an expansionpack

Movi

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Good reply
smile.gif


About the security : Well, i know backward compatibility is important to them, otherwise they woudnt still be lumping APIs from the 90's into this system. But i call for removal of those from the main OS, and put them in a virtual machine. Of course this could potentially brake some very specific cases (like specific devices on strange buses - Im thinking the old AutoCad parallel dongle), but first off - if some company is using a program written in Win9x API, they probably dont have any reason to upgrade anyway.

About managed code - yeah i think i managed to miss spell my thoughts - what i wanted to write is exactly what youre saying
smile.gif


I never used windows-64b, only read about it. Hence the wrong directories - i was guessing on common sense here. Guess Microsoft has none
frown.gif


DX10 - maybe so, but i dont really have a reason to check - I wouldnt be using it anyway, because MacOS X and Ubuntu cater to all my needs, and my DS and my Wii provide me with all the gaming i need. Ill probably come back to Vista in the name of reserch once something big happens, but except that - meh.

Azimuth - that there is the I/O buffer, which handles only file read/writes - this is especially visible on flash drives. It doesnt handle code storage and retention in the memory.
 

Strokemouth

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Kernel: Just a side note, the next installment of windows is supposed to be a complete overhaul to have a genuine microkernel (once again).

Care to place bets on whether or not that will happen?
nyanya.gif


As of about a month ago (we probably read the same articles), MinWin didn't even have a graphics subsystem and my impression was that it wasn't getting one. That is supposedly going to be the basis for Windows 7 and other projects, but it's only a minimalist variation of the Windows 7 kernel itself. I'll be surprised to see what they do with it. Especially given the fact that MS is shooting for a 3 year development cycle on Windows 7. Hell, they could barely get Vista out in 5 and that is essentially just an incremental release with a few of the biggest features I was looking forward to being ripped out (WinFS, for example). I doubt MS will be able to live up to the expectations it's setting for Windows 7 already, strictly because of a few of the things you mentioned, such as security, backwards compat, etc.

They should really take a page out of Apple's book and tell everyone now that they are starting from scratch and companies should start to plan for migration. Let's face it, screw the home user, enterprise customers are where the focus is. Then, develop a DECENT compatibility layer for the transition, then 5 or 6 years down the road, drop legacy support completely...you can't move forward by focusing behind you. Apple did it right with the whole Classic/Carbon/Cocoa stuff.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and as for the 64bit directories, I initially thought it was silly too that they would keep the 64bit dll's in sys32. But we ended up getting this flashy marketing DVD a while back in our MS Partner stuff that basically said "this is staying this way because everyone's programs suck and are hardcoded to look in sys32, so your 32 bit dlls can go in the WOW64 directory for some hot Windows-on-Windows action!" They made it sound like gay porn.
 

Lukeage

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Just before I start, I reread my original post and I really should be shot for using such terrible English. My mind must have been off elsewhere (Note: Excuse any terrible English that follows
tongue.gif
)

Kernel: Just a side note, the next installment of windows is supposed to be a complete overhaul to have a genuine microkernel (once again).



Care to place bets on whether or not that will happen?
nyanya.gif


They should really take a page out of Apple's book and tell everyone now that they are starting from scratch and companies should start to plan for migration. Let's face it, screw the home user, enterprise customers are where the focus is. Then, develop a DECENT compatibility layer for the transition, then 5 or 6 years down the road, drop legacy support completely...you can't move forward by focusing behind you. Apple did it right with the whole Classic/Carbon/Cocoa stuff.

I too am cynical about Microsoft delivering, but the kernel has been one thing that Microsoft has done quite a good job on in the past.

On BC, I wonder if MS is really in a position to completely cut off older APIs and deliver something new. I have heard from numerous sources that one reason their APIs become such a mess is due to Developers utilising undocumented features, then when Microsoft updates the API, these undocumented features become broken, so to appease the big players, they work hacks into the system just to recreate these 'side effect' results. BC is extremely important to big business and anything that hinders them will drastically set back any uptake of a new OS lacking it. I wonder how much trouble it would be to deliver this in some sort of VM subsystem.

Just as a side note example (I'll slightly vague on the details, but the main point will be here), there is a steelworks near where I live which back in the 70s were using some sort of control software on some sort of IBM mainframe. When they upgraded their mainframe, it was decided that the easiest way to port the software was to write an emulator for the previous system and run the software inside of that. No big deal, probably happens a lot in industry. Move forward another 10 years or so and they decide to upgrade the system again to yet a different architecture. Someone decides the easiest solution again is to emulate....the previous system. So now they have the original software, running in an emulator, in an emulator, on the newest hardware. As far as I am aware, this is still how this system runs.

All the upgrades and writing of the emulators was handled directly by IBM. This is the type of support MS would need to deliver to big business to be able to make a clean cut.
 

ZeWarrior

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Good reply
smile.gif


About the security : Well, i know backward compatibility is important to them, otherwise they woudnt still be lumping APIs from the 90's into this system. But i call for removal of those from the main OS, and put them in a virtual machine. Of course this could potentially brake some very specific cases (like specific devices on strange buses - Im thinking the old AutoCad parallel dongle), but first off - if some company is using a program written in Win9x API, they probably dont have any reason to upgrade anyway.

About managed code - yeah i think i managed to miss spell my thoughts - what i wanted to write is exactly what youre saying
smile.gif


I never used windows-64b, only read about it. Hence the wrong directories - i was guessing on common sense here. Guess Microsoft has none
frown.gif


DX10 - maybe so, but i dont really have a reason to check - I wouldnt be using it anyway, because MacOS X and Ubuntu cater to all my needs, and my DS and my Wii provide me with all the gaming i need. Ill probably come back to Vista in the name of reserch once something big happens, but except that - meh.

Azimuth - that there is the I/O buffer, which handles only file read/writes - this is especially visible on flash drives. It doesnt handle code storage and retention in the memory.

You're not into good more advanced games right? Those consoles have what's the word... '' kiddy '' games. And Yes I own both of them 2 but i game on my PC + PS3 more :S than both of them combined.
 

Movi

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About minwin : ah, but youre (at least theoretically) wrong. Now with Vista, it makes it a breeze. Vista decoupled the graphic subsystem from the kernel, in fact making it a X-like subsystem, where you have a DRI-likeish driver in kernel space, and a usermode driver for everything else, and a userland server for the windowing system. When UAC kicks in and aero glass is shutting down, you have a black screen - thats the windowing system shutting down and restarting. If memory serves right, Microsoft advertised that in Longhorn Server one could disable the GUI completely letting the server run the command line only. This kind of modularity is what exactly what the doctor ordered, and could potentially make Windows 7 feel fast - but only potentially.

Why? Because like DirectX 10, Aero Glass and DWM are clearly broken somewhere. Lecture time:

The sotyr goes that until Vista, the graphics that you saw on-screen (when not playing a game obiously) would be rendered almost entirely on the processor. That is, applications "tell" the kernel what they want on their windows, the kernel draws those, composes all of them in main RAM, then sends the result to the video card do display, rince repeat 60 times a second. The exceptions are D3D/OpenGL apps, Overlay video (the pink box). Also, MS used a hack for making some windows transparent - but again, this was not accelerated in the sense that DirectX was doing it.

This is of course bad, because we have $300 graphics cards that sit there doing nothing 95% of the time, generating heat and wasting power. Apple (again) with the release of Jaguar pioneered a GPU-accelerated desktop. The processor would render the content of the window, but that image would be immiediately sent to the Graphics RAM, and from there on the GPU would compose all of those windows into the desktop - this is how stuff like Expose and the Genie Effect are possible. This is also what supposedly Aero Basic does.

The next logical step would be for the GPU to render ALL of the stuff - the window contents, font rasterization et al. Theres a bit of problem with this though - this can potentially take up a lot of VRAM. In fact, you can go overboard, so you need to virtualize your VRAM and make it seem infinite - this is what Linux people are NOT doing, and so people with nVidia drivers are getting black windows. Mac OS X has had this from 10.4 (Quartz Extreme 2D) but not enabled, because it was potentially dangerous and would slow down the graphics subsystem instead of speeding it up (mainly flash - it has a _lot_ of quirks to make stuff fast on a general processor that just dont translate to GPU instructions). Its also in Leopard (now its called QuartzGL) but this time around each app must specifically ask for it to be enabled. This is also what Aero Glass does.

The only problem is Mac OS X for the latter to work requires any Pixel Shader 2.0 card with 64MB VRam. This means that my GMA950 qualifies for this easily (while the GMA950 is not DX9 compliant, it does have Pixel Shader 2.0. The problem with it is the lack of T&L - it delegates T&L operations and Vertex Shader operations to the CPU). Now, Microsofts Aero Glass subsystem needs at least a Nvidia 6600 class card with 128MB Vram for the same stuff. Oh wait - did i say the same? Nooo. Moving a window in Vista with Aero Glass turned on eats away 20% CPU on my desktop PC with a 6600GT (256MB Vram). On my Macbook it eats up about 14% on doing the same (but the Macbook has a Core2Duo 2Ghz, while the desktop one has a Celeron 3.0 Nocona).

So heres my question - why is the technology that is supposed to take away the burden of drawing the GUI from the processor actually making the CPU do _MORE_ work?

End of Lecture

To the person with the PS3 : I used to play "popular" games on my PC. However, coming from an 8bit Atari and 16bit Amiga background, after a couple of years i found the popular games scene to be lacking to say the least, and beeing a pile of dogshit for mindless drones to say thruthfully. I gave up entirely after Doom 3 and Quake 4 failed to inject any positive reaction towards me, not to mentioned i saw what used to be a great game - Need for Speed 2, turn into a MTV-gangsta_rap bare slutfest for hip-hop black wannabees. I have to thank Playstation 2 for this mostly, and Halo. Now there are exceptions for this rule - Portal is great, i played it on my brothers PC, but it just proves the point that originality has been lost somewhere along the way and nowadays kids just want to play Dog Shooter 5 for the Playstation 13, or the Bling-Car racing game. I long for the days when games had a soul like Omikron : The Nomad Soul, The Outcast, Day of the tentacle, Earthworm Jim, Sensible Soccer, Turrican. From todays title it seems that only Double Fine tries to keep their products have a bit of that somethin (Psychonauts ftw!)

But then again looking at todays youth culture (sex) visuals matter more that the sense of what theyre experiencing - just looking at the newest videoclip of Justin Timberlake, or .. So its no surprise that you have a PS3 - guess having HDR visuals shot in you face/seeing realistic guts in God of War is enough to make it hard for you. Ill take my childish Mario/Zelda/Metroid titles then, thank you very much
smile.gif


P.S. On a different note - I enjoyed Silent Hill on PS1, and all of the sequels on the PS2 very much. However, it seems that SH5 is in the hands of a bunch of jyofull idiots so i think ill pass. Also, if this was /. someone should mark your port -1 Flamebait.
 

Strokemouth

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That's awesome, I wasn't aware that Vista had pulled the graphics completely from the kernel. I knew it was offloading to the GPU finally, but didn't see the specifics, so I just assumed it was magic. That's a great start.

It's funny you mention Psychonauts...I had been scouring video game stores for a few months looking for it and just stumbled upon it in the bargain bin at Wal-Mart. I'm amazed that it didn't sell by the truckload. I just finished Lungfishopolis and am amazed by the whole game. I get the same grin playing through that as I did through any of the old point-and-click adventures (I was always partial to DotT, even though I wasn't a fan of Maniac Mansion).
 

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