Who should pay for the US/Mexican wall?

[Taleweaver]

I really wonder how we'll look back at this period in time in history. Trump already broke many traditions and honors and made more dumb and dangerous remarks than any US president I know. Not only is US on track for breaking the longest government shutdown in recent history, it is all for something that is COMPLETELY NORMAL. The border situation is at best moderately worse than before, but in reality it's just the same.

But Donald Trump made a campaign promise that was so ridiculously dumb that opponents didn't bother to disprove ("Mexico paying for a wall with USA? They already replied they weren't going to!"). Nobody thought that clown would beat all the other candidates, and even less people thought he'd attempt to follow through on his lie. The result: he's looking for someone to blame. Mexico would be pretty stupid to blame (he never even started any dialogue in that direction, he has zero bargaining power and - again - they denied they were going to pay for it even during the election campaign). So he once again tries to blame democrats.

Fucking democrats...how dare they not wanting to waste US tax dollars? Even worse: they chose to believe people in the field rather than...than...erm...well, who besides Donald IS saying this wall is a good idea?

And now it comes to this.
George W. Bush made a public speech after 9/11
Barack Obama made a public speech to announce they killed Osama Bin Laden
Donald J. Trump made a public speech to plea to build a wall


Honestly: why do you Americans let him do all that shit? He's on the brink of being trialed as a fraud, and in the mean time you just let him piss all over whatever ethical standards there are on being the president of the united states? Why?

...on second thought: don't answer that question. I don't wanna hear it.

 

[cots]

Your poll and your post are biased. You only take one side of the issue into account and then ask for opinions that don't allow anyone that doesn't blatantly hate Trump to participate. It's a simple "Let's Bash Trump" thread. No thanks.

 

[KingVamp]

Honestly: why do you Americans let him do all that shit? He's on the brink of being trialed as a fraud, and in the mean time you just let him piss all over whatever ethical standards there are on being the president of the united states? Why?

...on second thought: don't answer that question. I don't wanna hear it.

Honestly, our laws wasn't prepared for a Trump nor the things surrounding him. We are going need a whole lot of new or fixed laws to make sure this doesn't happen again... or at least combat it much quicker.

 

[DinohScene]

Trump is like a small child, take his internet access away for a while and ground him.

 

[Taleweaver]

Your poll and your post are biased. You only take one side of the issue into account and then ask for opinions that don't allow anyone that doesn't blatantly hate Trump to participate. It's a simple "Let's Bash Trump" thread. No thanks.

So...when Trump rallied his election entourage into shouting "build that wall", did you stand up to him and pointed out that he only took his own opinion into account and didn't allow for participation of others (like...the Mexican president who said outright "no, we're not paying for that") ?

The answer is, of course, no. You didn't. I didn't. No one did. So do me a favor: don't hold others to different standards. He never cared for politics, reaching agreements or being politically correct (or even polite, for that matter). He nor his followers should expect to be treated any different than they themselves treat others: with disdain, malice and without a fair chance to come with a reply.

It's been two years. In those two years, I've seen countless people attempt to argue and reason with him, and they all failed. Anyone in the government truly interested in the best of the country either quit or was fired before they got a chance to. So it's no coincidence that the only achievement that the Trump administration pulled through was a tax break for the rich. Everything else got shot down, delayed or canceled.

Is this a Trump bashing thread? Yes. What you should be asking is whether it is deserved or not.

Look...I've made a blog not too long ago about Belgian politics. Should I be being kind or forgiving when they screw up their job? Fat chance. But even in their bitter disagreement on issues, they acknowledge that these issues ARE, in fact, issues. You don't even have that. You've got a president who fabricates a problem that no one else can see and shuts down the government over it. That's worthy of a third world banana republic.

Questioning my objectiveness (which I never claimed) isn't going to convince me that the USA isn't becoming a dictatorship.

 

[The Catboy]

The wall is a complete waste of money and completely pointless. I am actually shocked (and also not shocked at the same time,) there are people stupid enough to support the idea of a border wall and don't see the countless flaws with it.

 

[DBlaze]

Hey, at least he's trying to keep his promises, can't say that about any of our politicians!
that was meant to be slightly ironic because he shutdown the goverment over a wall, but it's a good thing a politician tries to stay with his promises, i guess.

Other than that, I try to avoid political discussions like the plague, because there's always someone that will get butthurt over something.
The alternative to Trump wouldn't have been a whole lot better anyway.

I just hope for America's sake there will be better candidates next time.

He should just pay for his own wall

 

[leon315]

I picked the last one, it's a crime to not pick the last one.

Trump's foreigner politics will just isolate more USA from the rest of world, which he started wars he likely will never win and costs more day after days on his supporters' +all usa taxpayers' shoulders.

 

[FAST6191]

Your poll and your post are biased. You only take one side of the issue into account and then ask for opinions that don't allow anyone that doesn't blatantly hate Trump to participate. It's a simple "Let's Bash Trump" thread. No thanks.

So justify it or explain the nuance.

To most outside observers then looking to put 1300+ miles of rather high wall through a lot of desert, far from any infrastructure and having to build the infrastructure to start to build it... that is a serious affair*. It had better either generate serious revenue (unlikely) or solve a serious problem, and if it is just an extravagance then one really ought to be able to justify the funds which given the debts and deficits people the country presently runs... yeah.

*I am not much of a civil engineer but I have done plenty of concrete on farms where we first had to clear and build tracks or a base of operations, and I have also done things in hot and remote environments. Compared to doing it in a town where I can easily call a concrete lorry and have it drive out the next day it is a logistical nightmare (this even when I can then go home or to a nearby hotel at night) that sees costs shoot up and up and up vs doing similar things in towns. The scenario as posed previously is not likely to see either an economy of scale really kick in or things get easier, though I would be curious to see what goes with some of the prefab building sections made in a factory that China et al seem to be pioneering**. Maintenance costs, staffing costs and more are also a factor in this and I doubt it would want to be a folly abandoned in a few years when the next el presidente gets in, assuming it is even built in time.

**in case you had not seen it


So what is the problem it is looking to solve, or at least increase the efficacy of. Nominally it is claimed to be immigration of the illegal variety, and possibly smuggling of drugs and goods. Assigning a value to this one gets fun -- immigration of the sort demonstrably has a depressive effect on certain classes of wages***, and all sorts of weird knock on effects (UK wise the lack of cheap labour in some farms has seen automation kick in massively, and take out things once considered human only work. In this case though cross border trade might be impacted), and there are also crime stats and types to consider.

***typically not professional ones, which is fine as having your youth and low skilled peeps mill around is not a great recipe for good outcomes (see also the present fun and games with opiates/addiction, depression and debt among those). It is a rather humanitarian concern for a country without free healthcare (something the aforementioned might appreciate having actually)... maybe you can write it off as pure pragmatism.

How effective is it likely to be? One of the more interesting things I saw was that fairly small efforts prevent certain types from getting through. I don't mind scaling something and doing a desert crossing but trying to do that with elderly grandparents and young kids in tow is an entirely different matter. I might be prepared to send bitcoins home but others would be less inclined to leave family.
On the flip side would that just change the game a bit? Sitting in a boat makes me seasick but it is not so bad if just for a day or so. Similarly if I can go on holiday and just stay on (already a popular trick) then would that not become the more dominant method? Canada and down instead? I am told there are already tunnels so those would probably get a bit of boost. Drugs wise planes, subs, drones and more are popular and the drug peeps have lots of money to waste trying these sorts of things (percentage profit wise it is insane, and they already have lots in the bank to fund a bit of research, which is only getting easier as time goes on -- all those cheap remote control drones/planes/boats what would have cost hundreds and hundreds and be worse in my youth? Yeah).

For the problems discussed are there more practical solutions? If you are already going to be manning it then would those costs be more effective with intelligence, intelligence gathering apparatus -- a tower with an eye of sauron being cheaper than a few miles of wall, more people to guard/intercept, possibly some legal reforms to make it even less attractive (maybe keep someone's tax return if they can be shown to be demonstrably negligent in hiring, vs a slap on the wrist that it is now), drug wise there are some things able to be done (see something like Portugal, maybe also shove some funding into that cocaine vaccination stuff we saw a few years back, elsewhere in the world help and not handcuffs is also seen to do well and might help bring down incarceration rates, within the US what are the relative DUI/DWI rates where weed is legal?), if this wall is already something of a makework program and your cities are already prostrating themselves for big companies when it comes to concessions then looks like there are already the conditions necessary to do something fun there (might have to lessen that "government can't compete with private enterprise" nonsense, else just do the usual government loans end run of it all).

So again to outside observers the only reaction kind of has to be mockery, especially when "Mexico will pay for it" was a line from the mouth of the person pushing it, despite them not caring (nor likely to be able to afford it) and it making no sense in the history of business/international relations/logic.

 

[YetoJesse]

I remember this video of a colored man (I'm lazy, so my simple minded self would define him as a black man, others might call him 'African American' or whatevz) talking to a white millenial that was publicly ranting about trump being a racist and screwing everything up due to the news saying what not. In response, the other man said 'Thanks to Trump, unemployment rates in the black communities went down' he even went and said numbers were better than when Obama was president.

That being said, the only things I hear about America regarding Donald Trump are:
A. How bad Trump is, regarless of what he does. he's bad, even if it's something he said ages ago or whatever the situation. anything he says is bad.
B. He looks weird so he's a weirdo. But please don't just be, because you hurt my feelies. But Big 'ol Trumpy is a meanieboo..
C. The European economy is worse than it used to be because the american economy seems to be flourishing. (... this.... )

I mean... If I recall correctly, nearly nothing of what people were panicking about is happening.
But that could be me. It just feels like everyone loves to complain about anything that's in over their head because self importance is top priority..

I'm probably missing something, but all I'm hearing is 'My opinion is worth more than yours, because here are the research results on opinions.'.
Well, overpopulation is a problem too, though...

 

[kuwanger]

Your poll and your post are biased. You only take one side of the issue into account and then ask for opinions that don't allow anyone that doesn't blatantly hate Trump to participate.

Let me flip your complaint around for you: How would take the current situation, where Trump is demanding that American taxpayers pay for* a wall on the Mexican border** instead of his promise of Mexico paying for said wall, and in this this request he refuses to approve a bill to fund the US government until said demand upon American taxpayers, be met in a non-bashing, neutral/positive light? The only way I can see we can not blame Trump is if we blame all those in Congress who refuses to override Trump's veto to fund the government; of course, that doesn't really get Trump off the hook as it still makes him look like a petulant child. It's why I voted for the "have Donald J Trump pay for it" option, even though he couldn't legally do it anyways because he'd require the power of eminent domain (which would be outside his power using his own funds) and likely couldn't build on large parts of the extant government land.

'Thanks to Trump, unemployment rates in the black communities went down'

Except it's unlikely Obama or Trump was directly or even very much indirectly responsible for unemployment rates. I mean, maybe there's a psychological basis to believe "Trump is on our sides, so let's hire more people", but I don't tend to buy that. Nominally, government tends to only have an effect on the unemployment rate when it either (1) prevents or limits a catastrophe, (2) does a substantial amount of funding/spending on some projects, or (3) introduces new onerous rules/regulations that cost substantial amounts of money.

Tax breaks don't tend to do a lot. Obamacare could be said to be (3) except it at most slowed growth. Trump removing the health insurance mandate probably at best reversed the slowing of growth, but the consequences on the health care system as others have to start picking up the slack again probably just means a delayed reaction. These repeated government shutdowns are doing more of (3) than probably any of the feel good hiring. Overall, it's hard to claim any one person is responsible for the current circumstance of economic growth. Maybe the federal reserve and their interest rate/currency manipulations, but that's a board of people.

PS - One option you missed: a gofundme page.

* And blaming American Democrats in the process.

** For which at least part of which would violate treaties about not building in a floodplain upon the border without agreement and cooperation with Mexico, for obvious reasons.

 

[Deleted User]

Where's the "both countries" option? Not that I am going to choose it but I thought it would be there.

 

[Taleweaver]

Hey, at least he's trying to keep his promises, can't say that about any of our politicians!
that was meant to be slightly ironic because he shutdown the goverment over a wall, but it's a good thing a politician tries to stay with his promises, i guess.

Erm...the promise was actually that Mexico was going to pay for it. So this isn't anywhere near keeping his promise. Oh, and you're talking plural for some reason. I can name lots of other broken promises, but not really an important one that he managed to keep. That might just be me, though.

The alternative to Trump wouldn't have been a whole lot better anyway.

Sorry, but it's time to face reality: it would. I'm not much of a Clinton-fan, but really: even if she was just the run-of-the-mill politician with vague promises and no follow through, it still would've been a whole lot better.

I remember this video of a colored man (I'm lazy, so my simple minded self would define him as a black man, others might call him 'African American' or whatevz) talking to a white millenial that was publicly ranting about trump being a racist and screwing everything up due to the news saying what not. In response, the other man said 'Thanks to Trump, unemployment rates in the black communities went down' he even went and said numbers were better than when Obama was president.

I really don't know what to say to this. Obama started his presidency right after the largest financial breakdown in recent memory. Trump inherited a flourishing economy which is just the last couple of months starting to show some cracks. But it's not so much that I don't believe you, but that Trump is so busy insulting people and reacting to self-proclaimed insults that it's hard to pick up on whatever he does. If he really took steps in that direction, shouldn't he be tweeting that sort of stuff into the world rather than how everyone is victimizing him?

That being said, the only things I hear about America regarding Donald Trump are:
A. How bad Trump is, regarless of what he does. he's bad, even if it's something he said ages ago or whatever the situation. anything he says is bad.
B. He looks weird so he's a weirdo. But please don't just be, because you hurt my feelies. But Big 'ol Trumpy is a meanieboo..
C. The European economy is worse than it used to be because the american economy seems to be flourishing. (... this.... )

A. Sorry you only hear those things. It's not wrong either: the only thing I hear he had done right was arrange a tax break for the super rich. Would've been good news if all US citizens were super rich, but since that isn't the case I don't consider that good thing. What can I say? Perhaps that my news papers have no interest in his downfall, and thus just go with what he does rather than what he says.

B. he really has only himself to blame. if I dye my hair porn star blond, wear a ridiculous oversized tie, tout my mouth as a toddler sucking a tit and start repeating myself in mid-sentences, I get laughed at as well. For good reason. Really: if he doesn't want that, he shouldn't keep acting as a caricature.

C. ...but the European economy isn't worse than it used to be. Sure, we're recovering from the economic crisis worse than America, but we're better than we were before.

I mean... If I recall correctly, nearly nothing of what people were panicking about is happening.
But that could be me. It just feels like everyone loves to complain about anything that's in over their head because self importance is top priority..

I agree to that: nothing of what people were panicking about is happening. Remember that huge line-up of immigrants that were going to invade the USA a couple months back? Trump sent 5'000 troopers to the Mexican border, but it has gone pretty quiet on that front. Which is pretty much the opposite of what should've happened if you wanted to rally support for a wall.

I'm probably missing something, but all I'm hearing is 'My opinion is worth more than yours, because here are the research results on opinions.'.
Well, overpopulation is a problem too, though...

I consider that part of the problem: opinions that are weighed, researched and double checked are no longer considered to be worth more than opinions based on nothing (or even worth less than opinions based on emotions). I wasn't making up that experts claim the wall will do nothing to remedy the immigrant situation. But no matter how many experience they have, their collective opinion on the matter is ignored because someone with a blonde hairdo and extra large tie thinks otherwise.

 

[Technicmaster0]

I remember this video of a colored man (I'm lazy, so my simple minded self would define him as a black man, others might call him 'African American' or whatevz) talking to a white millenial that was publicly ranting about trump being a racist and screwing everything up due to the news saying what not. In response, the other man said 'Thanks to Trump, unemployment rates in the black communities went down' he even went and said numbers were better than when Obama was president.

The same happened when Hitler began to rule over Germany. But the work was funded on owes. Funny how the history repeats.
In addition to that the improvements since trumps election could still be based on the work of Obama. Some things need their time, you know

 

[the_randomizer]

There should be stricter, more efficacious immigration laws, a wall won't do jack shit.

 

[spotanjo3]

Well.. One thing I can say is:

Mexican steals American's job. Mexican came here illegal without a shots like flu etc can carry new diseases and speard to American people in America. I said NO!

If they want to come here... Legal, period. And don't bother becoming a legal because finding a job are impossible here for legal immigration people. Cost of living here is VERY HIGH and healthcare is POORLY system.

There should be stricter, more efficacious immigration laws, a wall won't do jack shit.

A stricter is not working. The law system is still failed.

 

[blahblah]

Silly thread. It should not and will not be built. America is no longer in the business of building racist monuments. Any other stupid questions?

 

[KingVamp]

Btw, I said Trump should build it (and maintain it), even if I think it is a waste of time and money.

Anyway, isn't population declining? If anything, we need more immigrates.

 

[WiiUBricker]

The first option is killing me

 

[linuxares]

Look how effective the Berlin wall was