What's the recommended way of watching Star Trek?

[Gahars]

Evidently, the crew was capable of using the array - they were right about to until the self-destruct sequence went awry.

As for the torpedo, there would be no need for dispersal - they could teleport them right to the array. We've seen crews do this in both TNG and Voyager (later on), so there's no reason it couldn't have worked right then and there.

Prime directive.
Even tho Janeway violated it many times she still kept to it.
Unlike Chakotay...

So... she didn't keep to it. Plus, blowing up the array counts as a violation of the Prime Directive (one of the characters explicitly states this in the scene).

 

[Guild McCommunist]

Um, the Borg survive the end of Voyager. They have like... Star Trek: First Contact.

Also the idea of a Borg Queen is completely contradictory to the idea of the Borg. They're supposed to be a leaderless, powerful mass. They have no weakness. There's no single Borg you could kill and end them all. That's what made them cool and powerful. Having a queen is just kinda dumb.

To be fair while I don't believe Voyager was terrible they had fucking Tuvix as an episode.

 

[LightyKD]

Considering the whole galaxy didn't like the Borg I doubt anyone gave 2 shits about them getting fucked up.

That may be true but, we're talking about the Federation. The hope and combination of all the good intentions of out galaxy. We are also talking about future humans who are supposed to be above such petty things as racism, nationalism and more importantly, genocide. Sorry but what Janeway did was inexcusable. ESPECIALLY since she knew about the Borg Queen's relationship with the Borg. all she had to do was disable the Queen and allow the rest of that species to figure out life for their selves but no... she had to blow them all up and send them to the Bajoran prophets.

 

[Lacius]

Um, the Borg survive the end of Voyager. They have like... Star Trek: First Contact.

While I don't think it's likely that all the Borg were killed, First Contact takes place before the events we're talking about.

 

[Guild McCommunist]

While I don't think it's likely that all the Borg were killed, First Contact takes place before the events we're talking about.

I swore it had Admiral Janeway in it as a cameo.

That may be true but, we're talking about the Federation. The hope and combination of all the good intentions of out galaxy. We are also talking about future humans who are supposed to be above such petty things as racism, nationalism and more importantly, genocide. Sorry but what Janeway did was inexcusable. ESPECIALLY since she knew about the Borg Queen's relationship with the Borg. all she had to do was disable the Queen and allow the rest of that species to figure out life for their selves but no... she had to blow them all up and send them to the Bajoran prophets.

The Federation aren't crusading good guys. This is more highlighted in TNG where the Prime Directive comes into play. An entire planet as advanced as us currently could be committing mass genocide and they'd do shit because of the Prime Directive.

There's also a shitload of bureaucracy in the Federation and other issues. They're generally good guys but they're a bit more grey in TNG and later on.

 

[Lacius]

I swore it had Admiral Janeway in it as a cameo.

That's Nemesis.

 

[LightyKD]

I swore it had Admiral Janeway in it as a cameo.

You're thinking about Nemesis.

 

[431unknown]

That may be true but, we're talking about the Federation. The hope and combination of all the good intentions of out galaxy. We are also talking about future humans who are supposed to be above such petty things as racism, nationalism and more importantly, genocide. Sorry but what Janeway did was inexcusable. ESPECIALLY since she knew about the Borg Queen's relationship with the Borg. all she had to do was disable the Queen and allow the rest of that species to figure out life for their selves but no... she had to blow them all up and send them to the Bajoran prophets.

Yeah thier "good intentions" were to fuck the Borg up for the sake of all the other species. Needs of the many and such nonsense.

They select a new Queen upon the death of the one before. It's stated in a few episodes. The queen is eternal.

 

[Gahars]

Also the idea of a Borg Queen is completely contradictory to the idea of the Borg. They're supposed to be a leaderless, powerful mass. They have no weakness. There's no single Borg you could kill and end them all. That's what made them cool and powerful. Having a queen is just kinda dumb.

That's another thing I don't like about the Voyager... it neutered the Borg. The Borg Queen (who may or may not have originated in First Contact, but the problem still stands) is just the tip of the iceberg. The crew encounters them constantly and outwits them every time; you can only beat an enemy so many times before he stops being threatening and starts becoming ineffectual.

Also, the difference between Q from TNG to Q on Voyager... don't get me started.

 

[Guild McCommunist]

You're thinking about Nemesis.

That's Nemesis.

Ah, that's my bad.

But then the question is raised, why didn't the death of the Borg Queen in First Contact kill them all? Or the one in Voyager?

 

[Lacius]

Evidently, the crew was capable of using the array - they were right about to until the self-destruct sequence went awry.

As for the torpedo, there would be no need for dispersal - they could teleport them right to the array. We've seen crews do this in both TNG and Voyager (later on), so there's no reason it couldn't have worked right then and there.

Pretending that it wouldn't have taken long for the crew to use the Array to get home, there was no feasible way for them to have their cake and eat it too. Despite their lack of technological advancement, the Kazon could have easily interfered with the placement of torpedoes around the Array. I also refer you back to my previous comment about tri-cobalt devices being required.

So... she didn't keep to it. Plus, blowing up the array counts as a violation of the Prime Directive (one of the characters explicitly states this in the scene).

There's no question that Janeway violated the Prime Directive when she blew up the Array. Sometimes the Prime Directive is a piece of shit that says you shouldn't covertly fix a planet's atmosphere to save millions of lives just because those lives haven't yet come up with warp travel.

 

[Maxternal]

While I don't think it's likely that all the Borg were killed, First Contact takes place before the events we're talking about.

You think in such three-dimensional terms. How small you've become.

 

[Lacius]

That's another thing I don't like about the Voyager... it neutered the Borg. The Borg Queen (who may or may not have originated in First Contact, but the problem still stands) is just the tip of the iceberg. The crew encounters them constantly and outwits them every time; you can only beat an enemy so many times before he stops being threatening and starts becoming ineffectual.

Voyager didn't encounter the Borg that much, and when they did, Voyager was usually no match. If I recall in TNG, it was pretty easy to outwit the Borg. There was also an episode where it was implied that uploading a single paradoxical file to one drone could possibly bring down the whole collective. Voyager didn't neuter the Borg.

Also, the difference between Q from TNG to Q on Voyager... don't get me started.

Picard was male. Janeway was female. It's understandable that Q would treat them differently.

Ah, that's my bad.

But then the question is raised, why didn't the death of the Borg Queen in First Contact kill them all? Or the one in Voyager?

The death of the Borg Queen only kills those Borg with a direct active link to her at the time, apparently. Only the Borg on the Enterprise-E died when she died because that was her mini-collective from the future. She was not in contact with the Borg of that period nor the Borg in her century she had just left. Although the Queen dies in Endgame and Unimatrix 01 collapses, we see other Borg ships still functional. There's no reason to think the Borg are extinct, and there's no reason to think the Borg Queen couldn't be reborn the same way she has been other times.

 

[Gahars]

Pretending that it wouldn't have taken long for the crew to use the Array to get home, there was no feasible way for them to have their cake and eat it too. Despite their lack of technological advancement, the Kazon could have easily interfered with the placement of torpedoes around the Array. I also refer you back to my previous comment about tri-cobalt devices being required.

They could phase torpedoes inside of the array, and the use of a timer would mean that the Kazon wouldn't have had enough time to do anything about it.

As for the Tri-cobalt device bit, that seems very ret-conny... plus, what would stop them from teleporting the tri-cobalt devices?

There's no question that Janeway violated the Prime Directive when she blew up the Array. Sometimes the Prime Directive is a piece of shit that says you shouldn't covertly fix a planet's atmosphere to save millions of lives just because those lives haven't yet come up with warp travel.

Oh, I'm not arguing with that - my point was that she didn't keep to it as Dinoh was saying.

 

[Maxternal]

I have unfortunately not seen the end of Voyager but at least in First Contact it seemed to me that the queen, rather than being a organic brain at the center with other mechanical implants, that when all her organic parts were washed away she had a machine instead of a brain. She seemed more like a machine made to represent the collective mind of the borg, not a living thing that happened to control them.

 

[Guild McCommunist]

Okay, the fact that we're getting so particular about the Array in Voyager shows it's bad writing. They just tried to shoehorn in some moral choice but it just left the whole thing so open that it basically paints Janeway as an idiot. Considering all the crazy bullshit maneuvers they can pull in Star Trek, it's completely possible they could've just rigged some way to activate the Array and detonate it remotely.

The fact that Janeway wouldn't try just shows she's an idiot. I mean they can make a Borg human again and do all this crazy shit in future episodes of the show but they can't rig up a few bombs with timers?

 

[Lacius]

As for the Tri-cobalt device bit, that seems very ret-conny... plus, what would stop them from teleporting the tri-cobalt devices?

It's established in the Voyager pilot that they needed and used tri-colbat devices. Also, beaming torpedoes wasn't something we saw as possible until much later in the series when a torpedo was beamed aboard a Borg vessel. Before that, it was common knowledge that anti-matter couldn't be beamed. Regardless, the Kazon fleet could have easily interfered with both the process of beaming torpedoes and the process of using the Array to get home, let alone the process of, well, not being blown up by a Kazon fleet.

I have unfortunately not seen the end of Voyager but at least in First Contact it seemed to me that the queen, rather than being a organic brain at the center with other mechanical implants, that when all her organic parts were washed away she had a machine instead of a brain. She seemed more like a machine made to represent the collective mind of the borg, not a living thing that happened to control them.

The Borg Queen is both organic and cybernetic. She was not fully functional after her flesh was melted away. She's also less a controller of the Borg collective (although she has that ability) and more a facilitator of the collective.

Okay, the fact that we're getting so particular about the Array in Voyager shows it's bad writing. They just tried to shoehorn in some moral choice but it just left the whole thing so open that it basically paints Janeway as an idiot. Considering all the crazy bullshit maneuvers they can pull in Star Trek, it's completely possible they could've just rigged some way to activate the Array and detonate it remotely.

The fact that Janeway wouldn't try just shows she's an idiot. I mean they can make a Borg human again and do all this crazy shit in future episodes of the show but they can't rig up a few bombs with timers?

Except that what you guys are describing had never been done before in the Star Trek universe, and you're neglecting the fact that Voyager was under attack by a Kazon fleet at the time.

 

[Gahars]

Voyager didn't encounter the Borg that much, and when they did, Voyager was usually no match. If I recall in TNG, it was pretty easy to outwit the Borg. There was also an episode where it was implied that uploading a single paradoxical file to one drone could possibly bring down the whole collective. Voyager didn't neuter the Borg.

This website says otherwise.

They made a big show about them being no match for the Borg... and yet this one ship managed to get one up on them over and over and over again. The producers kept using the Borg because they were big ratings boosters (from what I've read), but diminishing returns sunk in quickly.

In TNG, on the other hand, the Borg damn near conquered the Federation. They were far from being easy to outwit, and they were menacing because they were so rarely seen - it meant that much more when they showed up again. (There was the storyline with Hugh, but they made it clear that it was a special chance that they'd likely never have again. Besides, the focus of that episode was more on the ethical dilemma facing Picard than anything else.)

Picard was male. Janeway was female. It's understandable that Q would treat them differently.

It goes beyond just treating them differently because of their gender. Q was always a trickster, but in TNG, he was more of an enigma. Some days he would feel like helping the crew of the Enterprise; other days, he would dick around with them as a joke. The same being that would introduce mankind to the Borg in the first place was also the one that would help Picard understand the "tapestry" of his own life.

Then comes Voyager and he... wants to marry Janeway? And now he's having a kid? What?

The writers took the wackiness up to 11 while ignoring the rest, and his character suffered for it.

 

[Gahars]

It's established in the Voyager pilot that they needed and used tri-colbat devices. Also, beaming torpedoes wasn't something we saw as possible until much later in the series when a torpedo was beamed aboard a Borg vessel. Before that, it was common knowledge that anti-matter couldn't be beamed. Regardless, the Kazon fleet could have easily interfered with both the process of beaming torpedoes and the process of using the Array to get home, let alone the process of, well, not being blown up by a Kazon fleet.

For the first part, see the below response.

How would the Kazon have interfered? They're technological capabilities were extremely, extremely, extremely limited (like, so limited the Borg wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole). They could shoot, sure, but the Voyager had shields and wouldn't have needed all that much time to set everything up and skedaddle.

Except that what you guys are describing had never been done before in the Star Trek universe, and you're neglecting the fact that Voyager was under attack by a Kazon fleet at the time.

Not quite. They did that by the third season of TNG (and in the fourth), so it had already been well-established.

 

[Lacius]

This website says otherwise.

They made a big show about them being no match for the Borg... and yet this one ship managed to get one up on them over and over and over again. The producers kept using the Borg because they were big ratings boosters (from what I've read), but diminishing returns sunk in quickly.

In TNG, on the other hand, the Borg damn near conquered the Federation. They were far from being easy to outwit, and they were menacing because they were so rarely seen - it meant that much more when they showed up again. (There was the storyline with Hugh, but they made it clear that it was a special chance that they'd likely never have again. Besides, the focus of that episode was more on the ethical dilemma facing Picard than anything else.)

I didn't say Voyager didn't have more episodes involving the Borg than TNG. Compared to the rest of the series, however, Voyager didn't have that many episodes that were about the Borg. Also consider that many of the episodes on that list don't exactly count as "encountering the Borg" episodes (including but not limited to The Raven). As far as I can see, you've only got about four "encountering/battling the Borg" episodes, and it was made very clear that Voyager was typically no match for them each time. I saw no "neutering" of the Borg in Voyager. If anything, I thought the Borg were more menacing in Voyager.

It goes beyond just treating them differently because of their gender. Q was always a trickster, but in TNG, he was more of an enigma. Some days he would feel like helping the crew of the Enterprise; other days, he would dick around with them as a joke. The same being that would introduce mankind to the Borg in the first place was also the one that would help Picard understand the "tapestry" of his own life.

Then comes Voyager and he... wants to marry Janeway? And now he's having a kid? What?

The writers took the wackiness up to 11 while ignoring the rest, and his character suffered for it.

The relationship between Q and Janeway had both its serious moments and its silly moments. I saw no change in Q's character.

How would the Kazon have interfered? They're technological capabilities were extremely, extremely, extremely limited (like, so limited the Borg wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole). They could shoot, sure, but the Voyager had shields and wouldn't have needed all that much time to set everything up and skedaddle.

Despite how the Borg viewed the Kazon, they had weapons and shields, and an attack by a Kazon fleet isn't exactly a picnic. I refer you to Maneuvers in which a fleet of Kazon ships was indeed a threat to Voyager.

Not quite. They did that by the third season of TNG (and in the fourth), so it had already been well-established.

Could you be more specific about what was done in those episodes? I don't recall those things happening in either of those episodes.