What sources back up the anti-vaccine movement?

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The Catboy

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I at least don't know where you base your claims the vaccine wouldn't cause similar effects, but I speak from personal experience and observation seen over a large sample of patients (average of 50K patients). I don't know if vaccines you have access to cause similar symptoms or not but the ones we have (Pfizer with the least percentage of adverse effects, followed by Moderna and Astra Zeneca as the highest) have a wide variety of symptoms and side effects which are identical to a real COVID infection.
Based on my personal observations and the collective points of view with my peers and colleagues, I'd recommend distancing over our locally available COVID vaccinations and their rushed claims of minimal risks any time of the day.
It indeed is career ending to disregard all conclusion and blindly recommend this vaccine fully knowing it never came close to the proper extended trials to prove its safety and cause harm to my patients. I'm not fully disregarding pros of this vaccination but I'd recommend avoiding the disease altogether rather than risk any amount of health.
The covid vaccine causing temporary illness and other temporary issues are known side effects and are known to last 8 to 24 hours. Even the most complicated side effects have been documented and found to clear up with 24 hours to maybe a few days. This is still nothing compared to the possible long-term side effects caused by Covid.
Your argument is comparing a few hours of discomfort to a possible lifetime of having lungs problems, these aren't the same.

I do want to stress that this thread isn't just limited to the Covid vaccine and is about the greater movement of those against vaccines or not wanting to be vaccinated in general. I want to understand what evidence they used to come to their conclusions and if that evidence is backed by peer review.
 

Lacius

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Agree, but as I said before, symptoms include more dangerous side effects like strokes, pulmonary embolisms, DVTs and severe allergic reactions. And that's precisely why I still prefer safety precautions towards contracting the disease rather than vaccination at the time being.
I'm not in any way an anti-vaxer but this particular vaccine didn't go into enough testing to warrant my complete trust like other vaccines.

COVID virus itself wouldn't survive much on its own (with approximate half life of 3 hours on regular conditions). Had people decreased its spread by isolation and following precautions, this entire ordeal could potentially have ended long ago instead of allowing it to stick this long and mutate. Stopping the disease is the main goal and not only alleviating its symptoms.
The vaccines went through rigorous safety testing, and at least Pfizer has gotten full FDA approval (not just EUA). The data is abundantly clear with all three of the vaccines in the United States are as safe as any other vaccine. To suggest we have any reason to think they're unsafe is as dangerous as it is stupid.

Any reputable epidemiologist will tell you that vaccines are the most important tool we have to combat the spread of disease: even more important than physical distancing and other similar mitigation strategies.

The goal is also to prevent serious illness and death among those who get infected. 1,873 Americans died of COVID-19 yesterday, and statistically, about 1,723 (~92%) of them were unvaccinated. Anything short of saying "the vaccines are safe and effective, and anyone who can get them should get them" is moronic.
 
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Any reputable epidemiologist will tell you that vaccines are the most important tool we have to combat the spread of disease: even more important than physical distancing and other similar mitigation strategies.

Well, that is blatantly false since there are breakthrough infections with the delta variant, and it is literally impossible to transmit the virus unless you are in the same vicinity as someone else. The problem got as bad as it is due to those who refused to follow lockdown properly (including damn politicians).
 

Lacius

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Well, that is blatantly false since there are breakthrough infections with the delta variant, and it is literally impossible to transmit the virus unless you are in the same vicinity as someone else. The problem got as bad as it is due to those who refused to follow lockdown properly (including damn politicians).
The fact that breakthrough infections are possible and that those suffering from breakthrough infections can spread the virus is irrelevant to anything I've said. Vaccines are the #1 way to fight a pandemic, and they're more effective than lockdowns and other mitigation strategies.

Next, you're going to tell us abstinence-only education works. Go talk to an epidemiologist, and you'll stop yourself from looking foolish before it happens next time.
 
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The fact that breakthrough infections are possible and that those suffering from breakthrough infections can spread the virus is irrelevant to anything I've said. Vaccines are the #1 way to fight a pandemic, and they're more effective than lockdowns and other mitigation strategies.

Next, you're going to tell us abstinence-only education works. Go talk to an epidemiologist, and you'll stop yourself from looking foolish before it happens next time.

The only person who has consistently looked foolish in these discussions is you with your Sith-like absolute approach to everything. It would be easy to come to the conclusion that your political affiliation is more important to you than the actual outcome of this pandemic. Go back and look at how often you used the term 100% to describe things that are far from it. It's impossible to have a nuanced discussion with someone like you which is why I've often just let it go as I will this time too.
 
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Lacius

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The only person who has consistently looked foolish in these discussions is you with your Sith-like absolute approach to everything. It would be easy to come to the conclusion that your political affiliation is more important to you than the actual outcome of this pandemic. Go back and look at how often you used the term 100% to describe things that are far from it. It's impossible to have a nuanced discussion with someone like you which is why I've often just let it go as I will this time too.
Sometimes, things are black and white. Two plus two equals four, the Earth orbits around the Sun, and vaccines are the most effective tool we have against the pandemic. Last time I checked, we still live in a world of facts where some things are correct, and some things are not correct. Acknowledging this isn't "Sith-like," lol. But please, continue to post deflections instead of talking about the facts.

I didn't bring up politics, and I don't consider the pandemic to be a political issue; it's a scientific one. If you want to talk to someone who values political ideology over the facts of the pandemic, I suggest speaking with one of the roughly 1,700 people dying in the United States per day because they were unvaccinated.
 

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Agree, but as I said before, symptoms include more dangerous side effects like strokes, pulmonary embolisms, DVTs and severe allergic reactions. And that's precisely why I still prefer safety precautions towards contracting the disease rather than vaccination at the time being.
I'm not in any way an anti-vaxer but this particular vaccine didn't go into enough testing to warrant my complete trust like other vaccines.

COVID virus itself wouldn't survive much on its own (with approximate half life of 3 hours on regular conditions). Had people decreased its spread by isolation and following precautions, this entire ordeal could potentially have ended long ago instead of allowing it to stick this long and mutate. Stopping the disease is the main goal and not only alleviating its symptoms.
Safety precautions can only go so far when so many people aren't willing to do it. Why else is the virus still spreading so fast? We've had mandates with isolating cities and such, but that barely helped and would come back hard with more infections once lifted.

All vaccines have to go through a certain amount of testing before they become as commonly used. Even the flu vaccine had to go through years upon years of work to get to where it is today and we have the data to show that it provided a good amount of protection even in the early days of it. We also have to take into account the technological advancements we've had over the decades which also helped advance medical research even further by providing more references and data on other viruses and such to combat and identify COVID-19 as quick as possible. If the vaccines haven't been released at the time and took another year or two or so, we'd definitely would have had lots more deaths in not only regular people, but also even within the medical profession with doctors and nurses. Which would mean even more lack of staff to help work in hospitals and that's already a huge a problem as many of them are filled to the brim with COVID-19 unvaccinated patients.

Those symptoms you mentioned are extremely rare cases especially when you take a look at the millions of vaccinated people that have already taken the vaccines. The same can be said of any vaccine and they, too, can cause dangerous side-effects depending on the person. It's understandable that there are folks that won't fare well with the vaccine's side-effects due to how different everyone's bodies are.

Besides, we've already seen how very effective the COVID-19 vaccines are against the virus. Most, if not all, vaccinated people who got sick from COVID-19 showed huge improvements in recovery compared to the unvaccinated. Of course, it's not 100% effective, but honestly, no vaccine is. It's there to improve the chances of surviving and not suffering from the worst illnesses that can come from it.

Yes, yes, if people followed the whole isolation and precautions, then perhaps we'd be out of it faster, but as we all can see, no one likes to be "ordered" or "mandated" to do things. Which is why this is all getting out of hand and so many people are still going out and going to places with other people whether it be a party or some other crowded area thereby getting infected and even spreading it out further in the process.

The vaccine is literally the best thing, at this very moment, to better survive and slow down the spread as much as possible. As long as folks keep preaching their "freedumbs" and such, it won't end any time soon and may last for years longer.
 
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You guys are oddly militant about this. I noticed no one responded when I brought up the leaked DoD document about Project Salus where 5.6M medicare beneficiaries were studied. Remember when it was normal to be suspicious of the Pharm industry instead of other people? Maybe none of you had serious heart problems due to having known problematic drugs being pushed onto you like Vioxx.

Anyway, the pdf of that study is available to download and view. It's pretty clear from reading it that the problem isn't unvaccinated people but the waning efficacy of the vaccines themselves. It's okay though because Merck is here to save the day with a $700 pill to help when being vaccinated isn't enough.
 

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You guys are oddly militant about this. I noticed no one responded when I brought up the leaked DoD document about Project Salus where 5.6M medicare beneficiaries were studied. Remember when it was normal to be suspicious of the Pharm industry instead of other people? Maybe none of you had serious heart problems due to having known problematic drugs being pushed onto you like Vioxx.

Anyway, the pdf of that study is available to download and view. It's pretty clear from reading it that the problem isn't unvaccinated people but the waning efficacy of the vaccines themselves. It's okay though because Merck is here to save the day with a $700 pill to help when being vaccinated isn't enough.
Really?? because most research is showing “ hospitalization rates were 17 times higher in unvaccinated persons compared with vaccinated persons” soo.. yea pants are on fire?
 

Lacius

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You guys are oddly militant about this. I noticed no one responded when I brought up the leaked DoD document about Project Salus where 5.6M medicare beneficiaries were studied. Remember when it was normal to be suspicious of the Pharm industry instead of other people? Maybe none of you had serious heart problems due to having known problematic drugs being pushed onto you like Vioxx.

Anyway, the pdf of that study is available to download and view. It's pretty clear from reading it that the problem isn't unvaccinated people but the waning efficacy of the vaccines themselves. It's okay though because Merck is here to save the day with a $700 pill to help when being vaccinated isn't enough.
If I'm militant about anything, it's about the importance of science. Unfortunately, we have users here, like you and others, who don't care about science and push unsubstantiated nonsense.

We know that vaccine efficacy against infections wanes over time, which is why booster shots have just been approved in the United States. However, even today, an unvaccinated person is 6 times more likely to test positive for COVID-19, 10 times more likely to be hospitalized due to COVID-19, and 11 times more likely to die from COVID-19. Every reputable epidemiologist agrees that the main problem is so many people are unvaccinated, both when the problem pertains to transmission and mortality. Even if we take the conservative estimate, 92% of COVID-19 deaths are unvaccinated. This is publicly available information from the CDC.

The Merck pill isn't a substitute for getting vaccinated, and it isn't an excuse to not get vaccinated. As you mentioned, it's far more expensive than the vaccine, and it's also only about 50% effective.

Edit: In case I wasn't clear, I'm glad the pill exists, and it should be utilized. The vaccine just saves many times more lives, and it wouldn't be needed nearly as much if people would just get vaccinated.
 
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LinkmstrYT

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If I'm militant about anything, it's about the importance of science. Unfortunately, we have users here, like you and others, who don't care about science and push unsubstantiated nonsense.

We know that vaccine efficacy against infections wanes over time, which is why booster shots have just been approved in the United States. However, even today, an unvaccinated person is 6 times more likely to test positive for COVID-19, 10 times more likely to be hospitalized due to COVID-19, and 11 times more likely to die from COVID-19. Every reputable epidemiologist agrees that the main problem is so many people are unvaccinated, both when the problem pertains to transmission and mortality. Even if we take the conservative estimate, 92% of COVID-19 deaths are unvaccinated. This is publicly available information from the CDC.

The Merck pill isn't a substitute for getting vaccinated, and it isn't an excuse to not get vaccinated. As you mentioned, it's far more expensive than the vaccine, and it's also only about 50% effective.

Edit: In case I wasn't clear, I'm glad the pill exists, and it should be utilized. The vaccine just saves many times more lives, and it wouldn't be needed nearly as much if people would just get vaccinated.
It's funny how lots of these folks don't realize the irony of basically agreeing that the vaccine does work as intended if they're pushing the whole "waning efficacy of the vaccines".

Like you said, vaccines efficacy wanes over time for practically many vaccines. Why else do people have to take yearly flu shots and the like? Just seems really dumb to highlight this one specific point when it's been the case for ages with many vaccines. Booster shots being a thing too.

While it's nice the pill exists and such and I do agree that it should be used if it can help other people. However, as you mentioned, it's far more expensive to get than the vaccine shots and the vaccine shots are more readily available to get in so many places. And for free in many places, too! It's a hell of a much better opportunity and chance than to get sick and die from COVID-19 along with the expensive af hospital bills left for surviving family members and having to go over to GoFundMe and beg to others to give them money to pay for the bills and funerals in the US.
 
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If I'm militant about anything, it's about the importance of science. Unfortunately, we have users here, like you and others, who don't care about science and push unsubstantiated nonsense.

That's hilarious. Yeah, there are many doctors out there that dont care about science, like the ones prescribing ivermectin right? It doesn't matter that it may well have saved lives in some cases because that's not the important part of all this.

Btw, I'm about to get my booster but i guess it's more convenient to lump me in with "those people" eh. It would be impossible to have conflicting views about something.. but then I'm not a Sith.. or autistic. This is off topic but I remember when people used to come here asking for specific help about a particular custom firmware and while others would try to help, you would invariably turn up with your "Get Luma" post. At least you're consistent.
 

Lacius

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That's hilarious. Yeah, there are many doctors out there that dont care about science, like the ones prescribing ivermectin right? It doesn't matter that it may well have saved lives in some cases because that's not the important part of all this.
Any doctor who prescribed ivermectin to treat COVID-19 is anti-science and should have their license to practice medicine revoked, yeah.

Btw, I'm about to get my booster but i guess it's more convenient to lump me in with "those people" eh.
You're peddling anti-science bullshit, so I'm going to (rightfully) lump you in with the anti-science crowd. You getting the booster doesn't change my position, and it doesn't make my position inconsistent.

It would be impossible to have conflicting views about something..
It isn't impossible to have conflicting views about something. A person could have Belief A that's true and justified, and they could have Belief B that's untrue and unjustified. Holding Belief B is still a problem, and if it's unjustified or irrational, then that person is behaving irrationally. I'm not sure what your point is.

but then I'm not a Sith.. or autistic.
Neither am I, so I'm guessing this is another one of those waste-of-time deflections I mentioned earlier.

This is off topic but I remember when people used to come here asking for specific help about a particular custom firmware and while others would try to help, you would invariably turn up with your "Get Luma" post. At least you're consistent.
I'll address this even though is an off-topic deflection (while trying not to let your incessant focus on me inflate my already inflated ego): If someone were to have a problem with an outdated CFW, I'm going to include the obvious advice of updating to a better CFW. Depending on the problem, I may offer advice on how to solve the problem while on the ancient CFW as well as recommend the newer CFW. Depending on the problem, I might only recommend the new CFW.

These are the right things to do. Aside from an obviously desperate attempt at a personal attack that failed, your point is lost on me, and it's grossly off topic. Instead of talking about me, maybe we can talk about the scientific facts behind COVID-19. I don't think I've talked about you once. The person who is on the right side of an argument typically doesn't have to resort to changing the topic of conversation to be about the person they're arguing with.
 

UltraDolphinRevolution

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Any doctor who prescribed ivermectin to treat COVID-19 is anti-science and should have their license to practice medicine revoked, yeah.
I am sceptical about the effectiveness of ivermectin. However, a vaccine is useless once you already have COVID19. If a patient is desperate enough and willing to take the risks of side effects (which seem to be mild), why not prescribe it? A doctor serves the patient and the patient cannot prescribe medication by himself or herself.
 

Lacius

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I am sceptical about the effectiveness of ivermectin. However, a vaccine is useless once you already have COVID19.
Yes, a vaccine is useless while the patient actively has COVID-19. It should be noted, however, that the patient should get vaccinated after recovering from COVID-19 if they haven't already been vaccinated.

If a patient is desperate enough and willing to take the risks of side effects (which seem to be mild), why not prescribe it? A doctor serves the patient and the patient cannot prescribe medication by himself or herself.
Because a doctor takes an oath to do no harm, and ivermectin as a COVID-19 treatment has been demonstrated to be a.) Harmful, and b.) Useless as a COVID-19 treatment. Any doctor who prescribes it is incompetent and reckless.
 

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Yes, a vaccine is useless while the patient actively has COVID-19. It should be noted, however, that the patient should get vaccinated after recovering from COVID-19 if they haven't already been vaccinated.


Because a doctor takes an oath to do no harm, and ivermectin as a COVID-19 treatment has been demonstrated to be a.) Harmful, and b.) Useless as a COVID-19 treatment. Any doctor who prescribes it is incompetent and reckless.
Of note, every variation of the Hippocratic Oath includes both a "do no harm" clause and a "prevention is always preferable to cure" clause. Prevention, when possible, is always cheaper and more effective than treatment.

You know what's cheaper than treating covid? Preventing it and its complications. With a vaccine.
 

smf

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I am sceptical about the effectiveness of ivermectin. However, a vaccine is useless once you already have COVID19. If a patient is desperate enough and willing to take the risks of side effects (which seem to be mild), why not prescribe it? A doctor serves the patient and the patient cannot prescribe medication by himself or herself.

A doctor may be serving their own interests & not the patients, they are human after all.

Prescribing something just because "it can't hurt" is a bit random.

BTW The only paper that supported treating covid 19 with ivermectin, was withdrawn as it was very obviously fraudulent.
 

UltraDolphinRevolution

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I am talking about the autonomy of the patient. Many of us live in countries in which patients can decide to get the genitals cut off if they so desire. A patient should be able to get ivermectine, even if the effect is only a placebo effect.
 

urherenow

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There's some reasons to not get vaccinated and there's some legitimate sources. Though, most "arguments" come from Facebook and other questionable sources.
That being said, the simple fact that Pfizer already had some legal actions against them, accusing them of money corruption back in 2018 is a big enough argument to not help those kinds of shitty groups. There's an unreasonable fear of vaccines as people think "it is too soon" and "it has a lot of side effects". That is of course, wrong, as it's been proved that most vaccines don't have an abnormal ratio of side effects. They're technically supposed to still be in the third test phase, but Europe gave them an early authorization due to the particular situation. I think vaccines should be open-source, and the big groups shouldn't be able to copyright them and decide their price. If those vaccines are really efficient (which has yet to be really determined), they should be free, with the researchers getting payed by governments or other states that benefit from their work. I also think there's no justification for making them mandatory just yet, as they have a chance to be useless, and just throw money at 4 companies.
Not entirely true. I Forgot the name, but I was watching a doctor speak (in a YouTube video) about wanting to make it a standard practice to aspirate (sp?) the syringe before application to ensure that they weren't accidentally getting some of it directly into the blood stream. Although not a common occurrence, it is possible to do. Lab studies with mice showed that the vaccines injected into the blood stream wreaked havoc to heart tissue, among other things. In this instance, the side-effects can be severe.
CDC and others won't listen to this dude, but it really sounds like (my personal opinion) some of the post-vaccination deaths were a result of this very thing.

Oh, goody, My GoogleFoo didn't fail me. Watch this and tell me if you think this dude is a crackpot. He isn't anti-vax (nor am I), but he's saying there is a safer way. Boggles my mind why the powers that be won't listen. If it doesn't hurt, and has even the slightest chance of saving a life, then why the hell not?
 
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