What sources back up the anti-vaccine movement?

Lacius

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-How much more likely it is depends on the age group; which is why we don´t give the vaccine to young children
-You are assuming that a person gets COVID19; it is not a given; future variants might be more difficult to dodge but they will probably be less dangerous

So whether somebody has to take it, remains an opinion. If I had a company to run I would fire those who do not take it. That´s also an opinion and should not be outlawed.
Yes, younger people are less at risk if they contract COVID-19, but regardless of the age group, the disease is riskier than the vaccine.

I am not assuming a person gets COVID-19. The risk of getting COVID-19, and also suffering severe effects from COVID-19, far outweigh any significant risks associated with the vaccine, regardless of age group.
 

smf

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"Is worth the risk" is an opinion.
Imagine you could save thousands of lives by shooting down a plane with a hundred (or less) innocent passengers. Whether it is "worth it" is not a question of science. After 9/11 some courts ruled that you cannot act in this way to balance out lives. There is no right answer.
There is a right answer, you go in with best intentions.

Courts all around the world accept that it is valid to balance out lives that way.

If you are driving above the speed limit to go to the shops then you will be punished because it's dangerous.

If you are driving above the speed limit because you have someone in your car that needs life saving medical attention, then you will not be punished.

The problem with shooting down the planes on 911 is that instead of a plane full of dead people and dead people in a small area, you have a plane full of dead people and fire and debris raining down on a large area. If they could have vaporized the plane in mid air (and the ability to react fast enough to what was happening), then they would have done it. It's not a particularly relevant analogy anyway.
 

smf

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-You are assuming that a person gets COVID19; it is not a given; future variants might be more difficult to dodge but they will probably be less dangerous
You are assuming that people won't get covid19, I think that is naive when considering how transmissible it is.

You are assuming future variants will be less dangerous. But it depends on how you define dangerous.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/corona...ious-disease-doctor-explains/?sh=6005e40f734e

It's better for covid19 if it doesn't kill the host or give them too many symptoms as it can spread further, which is really bad for the people who can't survive the infection.

For covid19 to really become less dangerous, it would have to make the majority of people sick so they can't spread it. Evolutionary wise that would be a step backwards (the variant that spreads fastest wins), so I don't think that will happen. The new variants we've seen so far have been more transmissible and kill more people.
 
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Lacius

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Do they have data on this? The way it usually works with viruses is that mutations become more transmissible and less dangerous. It wouldn't be beneficial for the virus to kill every host.
A few things:

1. This could be an issue of wording. If a disease becomes more infectious, it could reasonably be described as more deadly, since it's infecting more people and killing more people, even if the virus itself isn't more deadly.

2. The delta variant appears to cause more serious symptoms and appears to be more deadly (in unvaccinated patients) than previous forms of the virus.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-variant.html

3. While you're mostly right that diseases tend to mutate to become more contagious, since that's the selective pressure acting on it, that doesn't mean it can't or won't become more deadly. All that matters is that it doesn't become deadly enough that it reduces the amount of people the host will infect while alive. Considering a COVID host is only infectious for 10 days or so after becoming sick, there's nothing preventing it, evolutionarily, from becoming more deadly as long as it kills around the 10 day mark or later. Considering our quarantine measures and the obviousness of severe symptoms leading to quarantine, it's reasonable to say severely sick patients already aren't infecting a lot of people by the time they are showing symptoms, so it makes no difference to the virus's ability to spread whether or not the patient dies at that point. For example, HIV is a very infectious and successful virus despite having almost always killed its host within a couple of years. It was successful because that was ample time for the host to spread the virus, particularly before there were any outward signs of the disease.
 

smf

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Do they have data on this? The way it usually works with viruses is that mutations become more transmissible and less dangerous. It wouldn't be beneficial for the virus to kill every host.
Yes they do.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/ar...her-risk-of-icu-admission-than-original-virus

In the Delta cases, there was a 108% increase in the risk of hospitalization, a 235% increased risk of ICU admission, and a 133% higher risk of death, compared with the original variant.

Alpha, Beta, and Gamma variants have a mutation that increasesTrusted Source transmission, while Delta has a mutation that increases its ability to replicate.



Usually you aren't infectious until symptoms appear with a respiratory virus and that limits the spread, dying doesn't have much of an effect.

So if each person can infect 100 people before they know they are sick and then 1% of people die months later, then that wouldn't affect the virus too badly as you've already served your purpose.

As long as it can maintain that stealth level of infection, the mortality rate could potentially climb to 100%. Hopefully high mortality and stealth are mutually exclusive, but we've never had a virus quite like this & so we can't say whether it could mutate like that.

Don't forget that covid19 isn't making decisions about what is beneficial long term, the virus that infects you when you have low immunity and uses you to infect others is the winner. If that means everyone is dead in six months then it just means it will be the end of all variants of covid19 that don't manage to jump species.
 
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Super.Nova

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I personally work in a COVID/vaccination center and I wish I couldn't get the vaccine.
My argument is that COVID vaccines would cause the same symptoms of the disease itself and that includes the more deadly among them like strokes, lung fibrosis and DVTs. The only really viable way to steer clear is to follow the proper procedures not to get the disease itself.
I got COVID twice so far while working as an ER Physician and I'm thankful to God I never got the nasty symptoms while I already ran autopsies of dead people much younger than me that died due to COVID symptoms.

The only true method so far to eradicate COVID is to stop its spread and curfews were the best chance. People got freaked out running towards stores to stock up and increased it's spread all the more. Then came the morons wearing a damn face mask incorrectly and not isolating when sick and threw more gas on this shit fire enough for the virus to evolve instead of fading away into eradication. Taking a very preliminary vaccine that was rushed due to the shit show getting shittier and cause an unspecified and unpredictable amount of harm is not the best scientific approach.
 

Dakitten

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I personally work in a COVID/vaccination center and I wish I couldn't get the vaccine.
My argument is that COVID vaccines would cause the same symptoms of the disease itself and that includes the more deadly among them like strokes, lung fibrosis and DVTs. The only really viable way to steer clear is to follow the proper procedures not to get the disease itself.
I got COVID twice so far while working as an ER Physician and I'm thankful to God I never got the nasty symptoms while I already ran autopsies of dead people much younger than me that died due to COVID symptoms.

The only true method so far to eradicate COVID is to stop its spread and curfews were the best chance. People got freaked out running towards stores to stock up and increased it's spread all the more. Then came the morons wearing a damn face mask incorrectly and not isolating when sick and threw more gas on this shit fire enough for the virus to evolve instead of fading away into eradication. Taking a very preliminary vaccine that was rushed due to the shit show getting shittier and cause an unspecified and unpredictable amount of harm is not the best scientific approach.
I respect folks who've entered the medical profession, as a former nurse and all, but your statements make me weep for those potentially under your care.

Very thankful Covid has not damaged you in any serious ways, but the vaccine does NOT give you similar damage to the virus. The number of folks who've gotten the virus and had side effects at all is quite small, but to insinuate that it in any way causes similar symptoms is just completely dishonest and possibly even dangerous. For a physician to proclaim such should potentially be career ending, save for having some incredible data to back up their statements.

I pray you're simply a liar.
 

Lacius

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I personally work in a COVID/vaccination center and I wish I couldn't get the vaccine.
My argument is that COVID vaccines would cause the same symptoms of the disease itself and that includes the more deadly among them like strokes, lung fibrosis and DVTs. The only really viable way to steer clear is to follow the proper procedures not to get the disease itself.
I got COVID twice so far while working as an ER Physician and I'm thankful to God I never got the nasty symptoms while I already ran autopsies of dead people much younger than me that died due to COVID symptoms.

The only true method so far to eradicate COVID is to stop its spread and curfews were the best chance. People got freaked out running towards stores to stock up and increased it's spread all the more. Then came the morons wearing a damn face mask incorrectly and not isolating when sick and threw more gas on this shit fire enough for the virus to evolve instead of fading away into eradication. Taking a very preliminary vaccine that was rushed due to the shit show getting shittier and cause an unspecified and unpredictable amount of harm is not the best scientific approach.
The best way to reduce the spread of COVID-19 is to get vaccinated. The vaccine has been demonstrated to be safe and effective. I recommend looking at the actual science.

You complain about morons not wearing their masks properly, but the real issue is morons refusing to get vaccinated for no good reason.
 
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The best way to reduce the spread of COVID-19 is to get vaccinated. The vaccine has been demonstrated to be safe and effective. I recommend looking at the actual science.
Unfortunately,this is not 100% correct,the actual latest Delta Mutation AY 4.2 shows unfortunately the Opposite.😢
Vaccinated People are the same Spreaders at the Moment.....
 

Lacius

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Unfortunately,this is not 100% correct,the actual latest Delta Mutation AY 4.2 shows unfortunately the Opposite.😢
Vaccinated People are the same Spreaders at the Moment.....
There is no evidence that AY.4.2 impacts the effectiveness of the vaccines.

Even with the normal delta variant, vaccinated people are less likely to contract (and then spread) the disease. It's only when there's a breakthrough infection that vaccinated hosts are spreading the disease at about the same rate those who are unvaccinated.

By far, the #1 way to combat this disease is to vaccinate as many people as possible. Nothing else comes close.
 

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I respect folks who've entered the medical profession, as a former nurse and all, but your statements make me weep for those potentially under your care.

Very thankful Covid has not damaged you in any serious ways, but the vaccine does NOT give you similar damage to the virus. The number of folks who've gotten the virus and had side effects at all is quite small, but to insinuate that it in any way causes similar symptoms is just completely dishonest and possibly even dangerous. For a physician to proclaim such should potentially be career ending, save for having some incredible data to back up their statements.

I pray you're simply a liar.
I at least don't know where you base your claims the vaccine wouldn't cause similar effects, but I speak from personal experience and observation seen over a large sample of patients (average of 50K patients). I don't know if vaccines you have access to cause similar symptoms or not but the ones we have (Pfizer with the least percentage of adverse effects, followed by Moderna and Astra Zeneca as the highest) have a wide variety of symptoms and side effects which are identical to a real COVID infection.
Based on my personal observations and the collective points of view with my peers and colleagues, I'd recommend distancing over our locally available COVID vaccinations and their rushed claims of minimal risks any time of the day.
It indeed is career ending to disregard all conclusion and blindly recommend this vaccine fully knowing it never came close to the proper extended trials to prove its safety and cause harm to my patients. I'm not fully disregarding pros of this vaccination but I'd recommend avoiding the disease altogether rather than risk any amount of health.
 

Lacius

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I at least don't know where you base your claims the vaccine wouldn't cause similar effects, but I speak from personal experience and observation seen over a large sample of patients (average of 50K patients). I don't know if vaccines you have access to cause similar symptoms or not but the ones we have (Pfizer with the least percentage of adverse effects, followed by Moderna and Astra Zeneca as the highest) have a wide variety of symptoms and side effects which are identical to a real COVID infection.
Based on my personal observations and the collective points of view with my peers and colleagues, I'd recommend distancing over our locally available COVID vaccinations and their rushed claims of minimal risks any time of the day.
It indeed is career ending to disregard all conclusion and blindly recommend this vaccine fully knowing it never came close to the proper extended trials to prove its safety and cause harm to my patients.
Side effects are a sign that the vaccine is working. Those side effects are the immune system's response to what the body thinks is a real threat. That's the point.

The benefits of the vaccine far outweigh the risk of side effects.
 

WG481

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Rather than argue, I'm going to ask a personal question which you are free to not answer. Do you have a son aged between 12-15?
Hi, person between 12-15 here. What did you need?

-How much more likely it is depends on the age group; which is why we don´t give the vaccine to young children
-You are assuming that a person gets COVID19; it is not a given; future variants might be more difficult to dodge but they will probably be less dangerous

So whether somebody has to take it, remains an opinion. If I had a company to run I would fire those who do not take it. That´s also an opinion and should not be outlawed.
Vaccination mandating is already common in schools (or at least the ones I've been too), which baffles me that businesses don't already force-vaccinate.

I swear most anti-vax kids are homeschooled. That way, their parents can force-feed them propaganda. I've been homeschooled through a program, and I noticed an influx in the amount of students who I knew were anti-vax and anti-mask. This is gonna sound major conspiracy theorist, but North Korea also feeds their schoolchildren propaganda. [Reference: The Girl With Seven Names by Hyeon-seo Lee] That way, they can have an opinion that isn't tainted by anything else, since nobody gets to leave, and nobody forms an opinion otherwise. (Except for Kim Jong-Un's half-brother, who he killed).

Do they have data on this? The way it usually works with viruses is that mutations become more transmissible and less dangerous. It wouldn't be beneficial for the virus to kill every host.
Yes.

Considering all the misinformation going around, I feel like this is relevant enough to post.

What an idiot.
 
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Super.Nova

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Side effects are a sign that the vaccine is working. Those side effects are the immune system's response to what the body thinks is a real threat. That's the point.

The benefits of the vaccine far outweigh the risk of side effects.
Agree, but as I said before, symptoms include more dangerous side effects like strokes, pulmonary embolisms, DVTs and severe allergic reactions. And that's precisely why I still prefer safety precautions towards contracting the disease rather than vaccination at the time being.
I'm not in any way an anti-vaxer but this particular vaccine didn't go into enough testing to warrant my complete trust like other vaccines.

COVID virus itself wouldn't survive much on its own (with approximate half life of 3 hours on regular conditions). Had people decreased its spread by isolation and following precautions, this entire ordeal could potentially have ended long ago instead of allowing it to stick this long and mutate. Stopping the disease is the main goal and not only alleviating its symptoms.
 
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