Wall Street Protests: Police brutality caught on tape

[dickfour]

You can demonize capitalism all you want but it's that capitalism that generates all the money for the entitlement system. you pull the plug on that and you've got nothing for the poor. This is a system where all the wonderful advances are made possible by the chance to make a buck. So you take the fruits of people's labor and they will not produce. I'll tell you something else the Arab spring wouldn't have been possible without our so called imperialist wars. I tell you something else those to Chines peasants putting together iPones is a dam good job and I think they'd be pretty pissed if you told them otherwise. One last thing if this system is so bad then what would you want to do? Seems everyone trashing capitalism can never seem to answer that.
Now to the real criminals. That would be the clowns in the government who raided Gibson guitars. The same people who threw 500 million down a rat hole with solyndra. Every one of those dollars represents a workers hard labor. So you tell me who the real thieves are. I say it's the politicians who are getting in the way of recovery

 

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

You can demonize capitalism all you want but it's that capitalism that generates all the money for the entitlement system. you pull the plug on that and you've got nothing for the poor. This is a system where all the wonderful advances are made possible by the chance to make a buck. So you take the fruits of people's labor and they will not produce. I'll tell you something else the Arab spring wouldn't have been possible without our so called imperialist wars. I tell you something else those to Chines peasants putting together iPones is a dam good job and I think they'd be pretty pissed if you told them otherwise. One last thing if this system is so bad then what would you want to do? Seems everyone trashing capitalism can never seem to answer that.
Now to the real criminals. That would be the clowns in the government who raided Gibson guitars. The same people who threw 500 million down a rat hole with solyndra. Every one of those dollars represents a workers hard labor. So you tell me who the real thieves are. I say it's the politicians who are getting in the way of recovery

If I replied to your post point for point, it would derail the thread. Truth be told, I shouldn't even be dignifying your vitriol with a response. I will leave you with this advice, however: Being an apologist for a corrupt system is not very attractive. It also makes you look ridiculous.

 

[Urza]

@Urza: I disagree. True, my initial use of the word "demonize" was incorrect. After all, you did not use any explicit adjectives to describe anybody. When you described the people as "complacent, stupid and lazy," you fulfilled the third definition of "demonize," according to Dictionary.com:

3. To mark out or describe as evil or culpable: the technique of demonizing the enemy in the run-up to war

The adjectives you used clearly suggest that you believe them to be at fault for their own misery. Second, you certainly did "suggest" that you couldn't have cared less for the subject matter even if you did not explicitly say so (again, citing Dictionary.com):

im·plied
adjective
involved, indicated, or suggested without being directly or explicitly stated; tacitly understood: an implied rebuke; an implied compliment.

I already admitted that I misunderstood where you were coming from, and I apologized for it. I explained that the brevity of your comments "implied" that you did not have much interest in the subject matter. It came off as though protestors annoy you, and nothing more. That is why I wished you had explained yourself first, rather than provide Wikipedia links to see on "Slacktivism".

Everything you just said is incorrect. People are idiots because our society cultivates that as acceptable and the norm. I did not state, nor do I believe them to be at fault.

Your misinterpretation does not implicitly imply an implication. For the last time there was nothing implied by those posts, and any subtext you gleamed from the words was due to, as you put it, your misunderstanding of them.

 

[dickfour]

You can demonize capitalism all you want but it's that capitalism that generates all the money for the entitlement system. you pull the plug on that and you've got nothing for the poor. This is a system where all the wonderful advances are made possible by the chance to make a buck. So you take the fruits of people's labor and they will not produce. I'll tell you something else the Arab spring wouldn't have been possible without our so called imperialist wars. I tell you something else those to Chines peasants putting together iPones is a dam good job and I think they'd be pretty pissed if you told them otherwise. One last thing if this system is so bad then what would you want to do? Seems everyone trashing capitalism can never seem to answer that.
Now to the real criminals. That would be the clowns in the government who raided Gibson guitars. The same people who threw 500 million down a rat hole with solyndra. Every one of those dollars represents a workers hard labor. So you tell me who the real thieves are. I say it's the politicians who are getting in the way of recovery

If I replied to your post point for point, it would derail the thread. Truth be told, I shouldn't even be dignifying your vitriol with a response. I will leave you with this advice, however: Being an apologist for a corrupt system is not very attractive. It also makes you look ridiculous.

It's so typical. What is the alternative. Simple question. The fact that you can't answer that tell me that you're ridiculous and know nothing about basic economics. I buy and sell for a living. I'm proud to be a capitalist and I can tell you this. If what I work for is taken away and given to someone else I'm not going to it any more. So you tell me what this so called just world looks like. That's pretty simple and straight forward

 

[p1ngpong]

All of you just stop your pointless bickering and focus on the "news" at hand or I will shut this thread down faster than any police state could.

 

[dickfour]

All of you just stop your pointless bickering and focus on the "news" at hand or I will shut this thread down faster than any police state could.

We were all have fun until you showed up

 

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

Everything you just said is incorrect. People are idiots because our society cultivates that as acceptable and the norm. I did not state, nor do I believe them to be at fault.

Your misinterpretation does not implicitly imply an implication. For the last time there was nothing implied by those posts, and any subtext you gleamed from the words was due to, as you put it, your misunderstanding of them.

Fine, you did not intend to imply anything. But enough with the semantics. Whether you intended to or not, your initial posts were incredibly one sided and vague, and all the while they were constantly directed against those who sympathized with the protestors, the protestors themselves, or "people" in the abstract. Exactly what other conclusion was I supposed to derive from this except your apparently nonexistent disdain for the human race? I got the wrong impression due to your lack of explanation for your posts, and I ended up misunderstanding your perspective. You cannot hold me accountable for your inability to elaborate. We have had to take an argument this far before you offered your full opinion! I hope now we can talk about the news topic, rather than the dictionary.

 

[Schizoanalysis]

I agree with Slavoj Zizek.

 

[dickfour]

Here's something relevant. adbusters is behind occupy wall st. If anyone is curious about what their agenda is and what they want to accomplish with occupy wall st pick up a copy at B&N or look for your self or look here.
http://activistcash.com/organization_overv.../o/36-adbusters
I think it's relevant and worth discussion

 

[Schizoanalysis]

Here's something relevant. adbusters is behind occupy wall st. If anyone is curious about what their agenda is and what they want to accomplish with occupy wall st pick up a copy at B&N or look for your self or look here.
http://activistcash.com/organization_overv.../o/36-adbusters
I think it's relevant and worth discussion

Because nobody could possibly be dissatisfied with capitalism? The protesters must have been manipulated by an organization?

Come on.

 

[Urza]

Everything you just said is incorrect. People are idiots because our society cultivates that as acceptable and the norm. I did not state, nor do I believe them to be at fault.

Your misinterpretation does not implicitly imply an implication. For the last time there was nothing implied by those posts, and any subtext you gleamed from the words was due to, as you put it, your misunderstanding of them.

Fine, you did not intend to imply anything. But enough with the semantics. Whether you intended to or not, your initial posts were incredibly one sided and vague, and all the while they were constantly directed against those who sympathized with the protestors, the protestors themselves, or "people" in the abstract. Exactly what other conclusion was I supposed to derive from this except your apparently nonexistent disdain for the human race? I got the wrong impression due to your lack of explanation for your posts, and I ended up misunderstanding your perspective. You cannot hold me accountable for your inability to elaborate. We have had to take an argument this far before you offered your full opinion!

What actually happened is that you were feeling particularly argumentative, and in order to instigate a debate with me you placed a bunch of assumptions on what I said to simplify your challenges.

 

[LightyKD]

Land of the free.

No, my friend. The United States is NOT the land of the free. We live in the land of slaves... that just happen to live lives that are just a bit better than most developing nations. Our political, economic and justice systems are so corrupt that 90 percent of us are slaves in one way or the other to the 10 percent that have all the damn wealth. The funny yet sad part is that I could see this problem way before it became a national conversation like, in the late 90's.

 

[Schizoanalysis]

Land of the free.

No, my friend. The United States is NOT the land of the free. We live in the land of slaves...

Thank you for explaining my subtext!

 

[LightyKD]

lol You're welcome

 

[GreatZimkogway]

This crap terrifies me. The people have zero power, and half the working class is too scared to fight back. What the hell are those who want change supposed to do in something like this? Make it a violent protest, and the other half will just look down, or look away, or ignore the problem completely...

 

[gameandmatch]

you know what the problem with these people is? They think that their rights supersede the rights of everyone else. I have just as much a right to use the streets to get to work or go home as they have to protest. By blocking the streets these so called protesters are actually trampling other people's civil rights. If you're denting other people freedom of movement you're not being non violent. There's a way to protest and exercise your rights freely. I've seen protests far bigger than this that didn't have any problems. The whole point is to cause disruption as a tactic to bait the police into a confrontation then edit the video and use it for propaganda. I have no sympathy for them since getting arrested and pepper sprayed was the whole point.

What an incredibly shallow interpretation. For the most part (and because you can't control every single person 100%) the protesters were on the sidewalks. Where would you prefer they protest? Also, I would love to have this ability of yours to sense the intentions of all these people at once and determine that they all wanted to get maced and arrested.

If your mother or sister was one of the women in the macing video (did you even watch that video?), would you feel differently? It doesn't look like they wanted to be maced to me. They're simply angry at the direction this country is going in, and rightfully so. I don't think simply yelling outside makes you a violent protester that needs to be maced.

Apparently you're the ignorant one here and need a little lesson. You see I was one of these people and I know what they're about. The goal is to disrupt and crash the system in order to effect revolutionary change. This isn't about being pissed that the country is going down the tubes. These people want the country and our economy to collapse and they want some kind of collectivist communist nightmare. Just look at the term culture jamming. To these people it's not about peacefully protesting or freedom of speech. It's about jamming the system, lawfare, and causing as much mayhem as possible. I'm familiar with adbusters the magazine that's sponsoring this event. They are evil, have totalitarian tendencies, they are communist in nature. What they want to do is shove their version of utopia and collectivization down the collective throats of the masses. They have no regard for freedom except to use it as a means to an end. I really don't think most of the kids protesting even know the real goals or are familiar with adbusters. There people don't believe in the freedom to own a car. I'll tell you I wouldn't let my sister or any family member get involved with these clowns. Do you know what it means to have all wealth equitably redistributed? Not to have the right to any private property. You can say goodbye to gaming if these people have their way.

>Communist
>Evil
>Totalitarian
>Collectivization

Oh god it's like we're in 1960s America again.

Spoiler

This thing I disagree with is COMMUNIST and SOCIALIST (same thing really) and is a threat to mah LIBERTY and DEMOCRACY. God bless America!!

Yep that exactly what it seems like, and now I sit here on comfy couch, sipping tea that laughs at this!

 

[Qtis]

As for the American bourgeoisie and how they are "robbers," what do I really need to say? The imperialist wars in the Middle East are being used to acquire the oil fields and increase their profits. After causing a near economic collapse (and the role of the wealthy has been meticulously documented here) the US state bailed them out with taxpayer money. They are now making more money now than they were before the depression. Yet they refuse to invest in production and create jobs to lessen the economic burden of the unemployed. Keeping unemployment high keeps wages low, which further contributes to their wallets; the private sector has not contributed any net job growth in several years. When they do invest in production, they do it in other countries to exploit cheap labor more fully. Apple and FOXCONN are probably the best example of this relationship. The bourgeoisie's contribution to the deficit and lust for profit encourages the US state to slash social services to the bone. Social security will be next on the chopping block, once they're done with Medicare. This is the historical legacy of the wealthy.

My bad, p1ng, if this is against the original topic, but I just had to add something here. Regards to moving to locations with cheaper workforce/materials/etc: How much are you willing to pay for certain products. Lets say we moved the whole electronics production from China to the US. Even moving from Mexico to the US is enough. The prices would go higher than ever and what "the poor" make now is irrelevant since they wouldn't even be able to afford that cheap TV. Making an iPhone in the US would cost a lot more than making one in China. This is something that no one can change unless people are willing to give up on the idea of making a change in their life and achieving something more than they have at the moment.

If this leads to protests, I'd like to see what is the answer the protesters seek. It isn't very useful just to say that "The Government is corrupt!" and not offer any explanation or reason why it is so. Also being a B**** for other people makes the protesting seem less legitimate. Hopefully the people doing the protesting understand at least that much..


-Qtis

 

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

My bad, p1ng, if this is against the original topic, but I just had to add something here. Regards to moving to locations with cheaper workforce/materials/etc: How much are you willing to pay for certain products. Lets say we moved the whole electronics production from China to the US. Even moving from Mexico to the US is enough. The prices would go higher than ever and what "the poor" make now is irrelevant since they wouldn't even be able to afford that cheap TV. Making an iPhone in the US would cost a lot more than making one in China. This is something that no one can change unless people are willing to give up on the idea of making a change in their life and achieving something more than they have at the moment.

If this leads to protests, I'd like to see what is the answer the protesters seek. It isn't very useful just to say that "The Government is corrupt!" and not offer any explanation or reason why it is so. Also being a B**** for other people makes the protesting seem less legitimate. Hopefully the people doing the protesting understand at least that much..


-Qtis

In regards to Apple's iPhone, there was an article I read that suggests that the price is severely jacked up: http://gizmodo.com/229664/iphone-only-cost...e-is-fanboy-tax
Naturally the low(er) cost to physically make one (approx. $250 US), is quite cheaper than the $600+ price tag on Amazon. And if labor costs and vice versa account for the extra $350 or so, why is it that the workers in Chengdu are super-exploited to the point that they are committing suicide? The answer is surprisingly simple: Apple simply appropriates the lion's share of profit for itself and leaves the worker and his miserable conditions out in the cold. In the case of China, this is catastrophic, since the only "union" workers possess is in control of the state; the Chinese state largely has no qualm with these draconian conditions. Corporations practice this all the time to reduce labor costs, not the cost of the product itself. The only thing we would have to "give up" by moving production to the US is the exorbitant profits of the super rich, since the American proletariat is still powerful enough to demand a somewhat decent wage and benefits in comparison to China. Whether the US unions actually help their workers or not is a matter for another thread. True, corporate profits would only be slightly less exorbitant. But to Apple's corporate bosses, it is crucial. In China, there is virtually no chance that they will be taken to task, since their operations are run indirectly by FOXCONN.

The zeitgeist of the "people" is one of deep distrust toward finance capital, though it is still mired in the "There Is No Alternative" mantra that was popular after the fall of the Soviet Union. In other words, they desire this "change" you speak of, but lack political direction and revolutionary leadership. Their demands are not programmatic, they are spontaneous. The protest itself is largely spontaneous. The protestors vaguely understand "how" this is done but sidestep the prospect of answering "why". That is the primary flaw of the Occupy Wall Street protests. They are still mired in a reformist outlook that espouses class politics. I agree that it is not enough to say that the state and bourgeoisie are corrupt. What must be shown is that these practices are a normal part of capitalism itself and for that reason it must be abolished. Since they only want to "reform" the system as opposed to succeeding it, the protest may gain steam but will be largely blind.

I don't understand your last two sentences, so I can't really answer them.

 

[wrettcaughn]

Here's something relevant. adbusters is behind occupy wall st. If anyone is curious about what their agenda is and what they want to accomplish with occupy wall st pick up a copy at B&N or look for your self or look here.
http://activistcash.com/organization_overv.../o/36-adbusters
I think it's relevant and worth discussion

Copyright © 2011 Center for Consumer Freedom. All rights reserved.

Spoiler

QUOTEThe CCF has drawn harsh criticism for having taken its startup funding from the Philip Morris tobacco company and for lobbying on behalf of the fast food, meat, and tobacco industries while representing consumers.

According to The Washington Post, Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW), a watchdog group, asked the Internal Revenue Service in 2005 to revoke CCF's tax-exempt status, alleging that Berman and his company had used CCF to direct over $7 million charitable money to himself and his company since 1997, an allegation Berman rejects.

Some groups the CCF has targeted have questioned its ethics and legitimacy. The president of the American Federation of Teachers referred to the CCF's leader as "a shameless lobbyist who has shilled for pesticide, alcohol and tobacco companies." A USA Today journalist said that they should change the name of their website to FatForProfit.com. Michael Pollan writes in his New York Times blog that the CCF is an astroturf organization that works on behalf of large food companies to protect their ability to sell junk food. It has also been criticized for its efforts to portray groups such as the Humane Society of the United States as "violent" and "extreme," and for its opposition to banning the use of trans fats. The group Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington has also campaigned against the CCF's validity as a non-profit tax exempt charitable organization, filing an IRS complaint in 2004 attacking the CCF's states that its advocacy campaigns were "educational" in nature.

Some corporations, including PepsiCo and Kraft Foods, have declined to work with the CCF, saying they disagree with some of the group's arguments or with its approach to advocacy.

Following a CCF call for a retraction of a New York Times story about mercury levels in sushi as “bad science,” Newsweek senior editor Sharon Begley has criticized the CCF's interpretation of EPA statistics and implications of FDA restrictions on tuna and other fish

So, dickfour, it appears you've not had an "epiphany" and stopped being "one of those people"...you've merely jumped to the other side...

These activists are protesting the mis-management of peoples' funds and the unwarranted tax credits offered to these companies (not to mention the tax loopholes they exploit).

 

[Qtis]

-snip-

In regards to Apple's iPhone, there was an article I read that suggests that the price is severely jacked up: http://gizmodo.com/229664/iphone-only-cost...e-is-fanboy-tax
Naturally the low(er) cost to physically make one (approx. $250 US), is quite cheaper than the $600+ price tag on Amazon. And if labor costs and vice versa account for the extra $350 or so, why is it that the workers in Chengdu are super-exploited to the point that they are committing suicide? The answer is surprisingly simple: Apple simply appropriates the lion's share of profit for itself and leaves the worker and his miserable conditions out in the cold. In the case of China, this is catastrophic, since the only "union" workers possess is in control of the state; the Chinese state largely has no qualm with these draconian conditions. Corporations practice this all the time to reduce labor costs, not the cost of the product itself. The only thing we would have to "give up" by moving production to the US is the exorbitant profits of the super rich, since the American proletariat is still powerful enough to demand a somewhat decent wage and benefits in comparison to China. Whether the US unions actually help their workers or not is a matter for another thread. True, corporate profits would only be slightly less exorbitant. But to Apple's corporate bosses, it is crucial. In China, there is virtually no chance that they will be taken to task, since their operations are run indirectly by FOXCONN.

The zeitgeist of the "people" is one of deep distrust toward finance capital, though it is still mired in the "There Is No Alternative" mantra that was popular after the fall of the Soviet Union. In other words, they desire this "change" you speak of, but lack political direction and revolutionary leadership. Their demands are not programmatic, they are spontaneous. The protest itself is largely spontaneous. The protestors vaguely understand "how" this is done but sidestep the prospect of answering "why". That is the primary flaw of the Occupy Wall Street protests. They are still mired in a reformist outlook that espouses class politics. I agree that it is not enough to say that the state and bourgeoisie are corrupt. What must be shown is that these practices are a normal part of capitalism itself and for that reason it must be abolished. Since they only want to "reform" the system as opposed to succeeding it, the protest may gain steam but will be largely blind.

I don't understand your last two sentences, so I can't really answer them.

Well okay the iPhone example was a bit off since Apple has quite a big marginal on their products. But regardless the electronic industry would be quite different now if all the pieces of the phones and such were made in the US/EU/JP. Perhaps a better example is elevators because the manufacturers don't make the money out of the product itself but the service programs. Thus making an elevator in China for about 50% or more off the US price is a good reason to make it in China if the US service providers get the deal to do all the repairs fir the next 30 years.

But as for the last two sentences (my native language isn't English which you could possibly have seen from my writing), I meant that protesting is okay as long as the protesting doesn't affect other people too much. For example if someone started to break buses in my local area for the reason that buses make CO2 emissions at times when they may move with 0 passengers, I (and a lot of other people) would be affected a bit too much to justify the protests. That'd make people not support the protesters and thus the reason for the protests (the goal of it all) becomes irrelevant and the protests will lead to no change.

Actually I'll add something to the iPhone example: Would everyone be willing to pay 300$ more for the iPhone if it was made in the US and there would still be the possibility of buying a "Made in China" version for the old 600$? 900$ vs 600$ would be the only difference.


-Qtis

ps. This thread is one of the best pass times in Industrial Economics lectures @ Uni