US experiences two more mass shootings in less than 24 hours; 8chan's founder calls for site closure

[Xzi]

The root of gun violence is in our political nature, arrogantly believing that we can control others.

I'm not so sure about that. Other countries' governments exert more control over their citizens than the US government does, and those countries still have far fewer gun murders/suicides annually. I think the US populace has a unique obsession with firearms rooted in history, and we've been in a sort of nebulous hatred trance since 9/11 and the beginnings of the war on terror. With no clearly defined enemy or objective, we're turning our weapons on each other, and committing the same acts of terrorism we once sought to eliminate from the Middle East. A "live by the sword, die by the sword" situation if ever there was one.

Of course, it also doesn't help one bit that certain political leaders have built their entire identities around stoking the flames of hatred and division. Insufferable as I think she is, I'd still gladly settle for a Marianne Williamson presidency if the whole nation took her message of peace, love, and healing crystals to heart.

 

[tabzer]

Other countries' governments exert more control over their citizens than the US government does

And, as I said, with an armed militia.

Blaming anyone other than the shooter promotes the mindset for potential shooters to think "It's not my fault" before they go out and kill. Gun violence occurs on both sides of the political spectrum and it is a struggle for control. America, too, is the greatest place for the "I'm the victim" mentality.

If you want to blame Trump for everything, go ahead. All of these problems existed way before him. Good luck with your healing crystals.

 

[Viri]

Hey, I get to post this again!

Spoiler

 

[Xzi]

And, as I said, with an armed militia who got into power by gun violence.

Not all, no. America is far from the only country with democratically elected leadership.

Blaming anyone other than the shooter promotes the mindset for potential shooters to think "It's not my fault" before they go out and kill. Gun violence occurs on both sides of the political spectrum and it is a struggle for control. America, too, is the greatest place for the "I'm the victim" mentality.

We agree on that, and I wasn't explicitly blaming the environment for the shooters' actions, only pointing out some contributing factors.

If you want to blame Trump for everything, go ahead. All of these problems existed way before him.

I didn't mention anybody by name, and in the US we certainly have had political leaders which built their identities around stoking hatred and division well before Trump did it. Again, not the root cause, just another contributing factor that shooters can attribute their actions to.

 

[tabzer]

Not all, no. America is far from the only country with democratically elected leadership.

That "exert more control" with an armed militia.

 

[Xzi]

That "exert more control" with an armed militia.

This is kind of circular logic though. If exerting more control via the military/police leads to less or no mass shootings in other countries, why doesn't it have the same effect in the US? For that matter, there are plenty examples of countries where the opposite is true too: the laws and government controls are far more lax than the US', and there's still far less gun violence. It all comes back to the fact that America has a unique history and culture revolving around guns.

 

[tabzer]

This is kind of circular logic though.

That's what I said with my post about it being a cycle.

why doesn't it have the same effect in the US?

Other countries, who as you said, exert more control, already has their gun gang established on top threatening any "uprise". America, with it's very open clash between multiple ideologies gives merit to the idea that the "revolution" is open season.

Anyway, our conversation is stupid in light of what @Viri posted. I feel kind of embarrassed that I am "contributing" to your "amazing" post.

Hey, I get to post this again!

Spoiler

 

[Clydefrosch]

Meanwhile, despite being populated by nazi descendants and supposedly invaded by at least a billion sharia law loving extremists a week, there have been no mass shootings in Germany.

 

[Xzi]

That's what I said with my post about it being a cycle.

A cycle unique to the US, unfortunately. Other countries have a fair amount of violence to contend with, they just don't have the gun obsession in the mix.

Anyway, our conversation is stupid in light of what @Viri posted. I feel kind of embarrassed that I am "contributing" to your "amazing" post.

You said it yourself: blaming anyone but the shooter for their actions is ridiculous. Other countries have similar media coverage and haven't seen the same trend that we have. It might be one of several contributing factors to the epidemic of mass shootings growing ever more frequent, but it's far from the only factor.

 

[deinonychus71]

what fallacy? the point is that a knife cant lead to 34 people being killed immediately, yes you can probably beat someone to death with a spoon if you really tried but to compare it to something that can run down people by the dozens is absurd.

I'd love an answer to this as well... someday, from anyone who still pretends it would change nothing.

US politics have no balls to do what needs to be done. Why bother fighting the oil industry or the gun industry, let's talk about immigration and promote violence instead, non-stop.
Let's all talk again in 50+ years when the planet will be inhabitable cause some fucking lobbies will have blocked any sort of progress towards more eco-friendly technologies and when we'll have a new series of worldwide wars due to constantly pointing fingers at others.

Someone sent me this today
https://twitter.com/tarekobagi/status/1157911327505076224

 

[tabzer]

A cycle unique to the US

Wrong. War existed before the US did, and before guns there were daggers and arrows. If you want to suggest that gun violence is the only type of violence that we *should focus on, then you aren't interested in finding the root of the actual problem.

You said it yourself: blaming anyone but the shooter for their actions is ridiculous.

only pointing out some contributing factors.

I am saying that @Viri posted something more insightful and relevant than either of us have. This thread is just a copycat and doesn't contribute anything meaningful. The value I see in it is as a work of satire.

 

[Glyptofane]

what fallacy? the point is that a knife cant lead to 34 people being killed immediately, yes you can probably beat someone to death with a spoon if you really tried but to compare it to something that can run down people by the dozens is absurd.

You mean like a truck?

 

[RaptorDMG]

You mean like a truck?

At least with a truck you have the chance to see and hear it coming and attempt to avoid it

 

[Xzi]

Wrong. War existed before the US did, and before guns there were daggers and arrows.

Well no shit. This thread isn't about bronze age problems.

If you want to suggest that gun violence is the only type of violence that we suggest, then you aren't interested in finding the root of the actual problem.

The problem in its simplest form is tribalism, but that exists everywhere in the world. Mass shootings of this frequency only happen in the US.

I am saying that Viri posted something more insightful and relevant than either of us have. This thread is just a copycat and doesn't contribute anything meaningful. The value I see in it is as a work of satire.

The idea presented in the video Viri posted is nothing new or unique. What you choose to attribute value to is your business, but the fact that you find amusement in tragedies just makes you a dick.

 

[Subtle Demise]

well other countries have done it and gun violence plumetted. I am not saying thats the solution here but it has worked.
as for whole socio economic problem... Some of the nuts that have done this seem to be pretty well off in comparison to other people in this country. We are gonna blame poverty for mass shootings now?

Gun violence plummeted. Yeah that's obvious. What about vans plowing people over, knife crime, acid attacks? You can destroy a lot of property and kill way more people with gasoline, styrofoam and a thickening agent. Take up metalworking and machining and fashion a makeshift flamethrower and cause even more destruction. People kill people. Nothing you can do about that.

 

[kuwanger]

We create laws to catch criminals (hopefully preemptively, but usually in the act) and punish them accordingly.

Except that even though multiple shooters have had long rants on 8chan, they weren't preemptively caught. Why? Because the steps of defining things as illegal doesn't really seem to work. Smaller magazine sizes? Buy more. Stricter rules on guns? Keep shopping around until the background check says you're good--how many shooters have gotten their gun legally through a background check? There's some talk about adding juvenile mental health records? No idea if that'd change things. Well, how about just punishing people for making hateful, unspecific, threatening rants? That's about the only thing really left to try to preemptive arrest most people, but that could be said to undermine most free speech--#metoo was hateful, often unspecific, and generally threatening.

Btw, I'm not arguing any of the above wouldn't have *some* effect. It's just pretty clear that there's no simple panacea when guns and bulletproof vests are available and people are motivated to do harm towards others. It seems clear that luck has more to do with catching a person than anything. Do I bring up the horrible arson attack in Japan? There's a lot of things we could try to regulate to prevent all sorts of attacks, but it's clearly cultural sentiment that drives these things. Look at the anarchists in the US 110 years ago. Look at the complaints at the time. Mass shootings are so shocking because we don't expect them and we view them as unacceptable. A product defects that brings down a plane? Well, that's just a cost of doing business.

 

[tabzer]

the fact that you find amusement in tragedies just makes you a dick.

I was talking about your thread, not about what actually happened. Conflating the two makes you a dick. Do you hope to be on CNN or Fox news in the future, Mr. Contributor?

 

[DRAGONBALLVINTAGE]

Trump Blaming Video Games

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...nce-today-a9040066.html?utm_source=reddit.com

 

[Subtle Demise]

Trump Blaming Video Games

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...nce-today-a9040066.html?utm_source=reddit.com

Of course video games are the scapegoat again, even though there are fewer ultra-violent games being made today than there were back 20+ years ago when they tried that shit last time. Let's blame inanimate objects, let's blame violent media, let's blame music, let's blame websites. God forbid we should admit that there are evil people in this world that either want to commit suicide by cop and take as many innocents with them as possible. Or they are motivated by extremely misguided racial and/or religious beliefs.

They say America greatest country on earth do me a favour ther an embarasment - thers no need for anyone to hav a gun ther only needed if a country go's to war and for military only

In the last 100 years, victims of democide (government sanctioned murder) were estimated to be around 250,000,000 in number. Many times these governments target their own people, and the US government is no exception. In fact, they excel at it:

• Almost total eradication of the native population
• Putting down the Whiskey Rebellion
• The federal government instigating the Civil War
• Burning men, women, and children alove at Waco, TX
• MOVE bombing in Philadelphia. Lots of collateral damage that is still shrugged off to this day

Those are just attacks against our own people. We can't forget about the wars of aggression, constant interventionism, and regional destabilization our military is infamous for. Speaking of military, how about the local police with APCs, fully automatics and full body armor. In many of the big cities, they are more like an occupying army than ones meant to protect and serve. Last year, police shot and killed three times as many people than who died in all the mass shootings combined. Hell, people say Trump is literally hitler and is supporting white supremacy terrorism, right here in this very thread.

So yes, let's trust only these people with guns and let them have a monopoly on violence. It is working so well for us already, why not let them have more? Sorry, but I won't allow it, and many others feel the same way I do. When words like "boogaloo" and "big igloo" (look them up)get thrown around casually on a site as mainstream and public as Facebook, I know something big is coming, and I want to be on the right side of liberty and history.

 

[Xzi]

Except that even though multiple shooters have had long rants on 8chan, they weren't preemptively caught. Why? Because the steps of defining things as illegal doesn't really seem to work.

These things are always posted less than a minute before the shooting starts. Of course that's not enough time to identify the poster, trace the IP address, etc.

Smaller magazine sizes? Buy more.

Which means reloading more, giving more chances for people to flee to safety and more opportunities for cops/other civilians with guns to take out the shooter.

Stricter rules on guns? Keep shopping around until the background check says you're good--how many shooters have gotten their gun legally through a background check?

Background checks aren't going to catch every would-be shooter, but that doesn't mean it should be easy to circumvent them altogether.

There's some talk about adding juvenile mental health records? No idea if that'd change things.

That's a good idea for background checks. You should also look up red flag laws, which a couple states have passed already. They provide a legal avenue to take guns away from individuals who commit violent crimes or have a record of mental illness, therefore being a good way to catch those people who fall through the cracks of a background check.

Well, how about just punishing people for making hateful, unspecific, threatening rants?

The FBI and NSA do follow up on online threats they deem credible, but again, most people that commit acts of terrorism do it just moments after posting manifestos.

Btw, I'm not arguing any of the above wouldn't have *some* effect. It's just pretty clear that there's no simple panacea when guns and bulletproof vests are available and people are motivated to do harm towards others. It seems clear that luck has more to do with catching a person than anything.

I agree, no one policy is going to fix everything, but we've tried doing nothing for decades, and at this point I think we can say definitively that sitting on our hands is not helpful.

Do I bring up the horrible arson attack in Japan? There's a lot of things we could try to regulate to prevent all sorts of attacks, but it's clearly cultural sentiment that drives these things. Look at the anarchists in the US 110 years ago. Look at the complaints at the time. Mass shootings are so shocking because we don't expect them and we view them as unacceptable. A product defects that brings down a plane? Well, that's just a cost of doing business.

Violence comes in several forms, yes, but there are laws and contingencies already in place to deal with arson and defective aircraft. Far more than there are for guns in the US.