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(US-Election) So howsabout voting by mail?

Should US residents be allowed to vote by mail?


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notimp

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And prices go higher.
Yes but thats money that flows into 'industry', or retail, or production, hopefully creating a boom in industry, retail or production. ;)

So you can't get promotions?
Only the meaningless kind. Barista grandgeneral or something. Management of managing everyones believes. CSR.

But you have a point there. If taxes are hiked up for middleclasses their 'individual dreams' might still not be realizable (lets say for most).

So lets look at approaches:

1: Tax people, create investment structures, create new sectors with growth potential, help everyone out that way - kinda. Also, maybe everyone gets healthcare out of it.

2: Stick to status quo, keep taxes low, take state investment money (currently because of COVID), that is "invented" (made up, but you can, because under COVID everyone is - so it doesnt impact your international competitiveness that much), and create more bullshit jobs with it (positions managing useless projects, preferably circularly, and that are only there for people to not revolt, or because the government asked you), and invest heavily into CSR. (CSR = bullshit, that the company cares about social impact at least equal to bottom line - literally lying to all your employees and everyone around, just so they feel better and dont revolt).

Which approach seems preferable. ;)
There goes the donut shops. (Except for KK and DD, of course.)
I don't think so. More disposable income for the poor, so more leisure spending.
Germany raised minimum wage recently and the 'fallout' was - literally nothing (on the negative side). No higher jobless numbers, nothing. Now, that doesnt always have to work out that way - but it can.
Eradicate the minimum wage, let more small businesses open up, and watch as society flourishes with multiple choices at high payments per hour because the lack of small businesses was likely out of fear that the owners wouldn't be able to sustain themselves.
But now employees cant sustain themselves. Even though they are working, so high social unrest potential. Your ideal society cant be one, where many people have to sustain on food stamp projects, even though they are working full time. Its called a 'floor' (raising the floor) for a reason.
There's always something somewhere.
Hey are we telling bedtime stories to each other, or looking at this statistically. ;) Yes, there is always an outlier somewhere. :)
Paying off the national debt.
Why. ;)

Here is the basic story on national debt: At one point some professor said debt to GDP ratio cant be higher than 70% or your economy will default. That then became IMF/World bank doctrine. Then some of his stundents found out, that his excel sheet was faulty. :)

Also - current US investments into the economy are huge (I think I heard a figure floating around that billionaires in the US gained an average of 10bn each during the COVID crisis), and this is possible, because everyone is increasing national debt during COVID.

At the same time, money for the state (even from private investors) is cheap as never before (Germanys interest rates for 10 year bonds were negative at one point (investors gave them money to take their money and promise to return it in 10 years)).

And all you want to do with this money - is... Better the borrowing conditions of future generations. No actual economic action for people on the ground.

Again - millenials havent seen sustained growth in their lifetime, 2/3 of jobs created are 'service the customer longtime' BS without perspective, you've maybe got an alltime high in joblessness after COVID-19, big investor money never reaches the economy on the ground in your own country, climate change might kill you if unadressed - and you want to do nothing about that?

National debt, usually is supposed to be inflated away. Not 'payed back' by everyone 'saving up'. What would china do with more money? What would private investors do with more investment capital. They already are facing a problem of having too much of it and too few 'investable opportunities' in western countries. They would invest more of it in india, china and mexico, and then? The US could borrow more of it again for future generations to do what?

Why are there sectors, where private investors don't invest but a state might? Usually, too much long term risk, or 'creating something' requires a political mandate. (F.e.: Climate change > everyone has to change their personal outlook and behavior a little > this needs to be induced through political change).
 
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notimp

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1. Prices won't go higher, redistribution of wealth in increasing the minimum wage does not equal inflation.
Eventually it will. Producers of 'needed goods of daily life' will increase prices. :) At least in my country, usually.
Increased pricing would be the only thing small businesses could do to maintain a good amount of staff.
But small businesses will not have a big impact on general price structure, regardless of what they do. If you produce a needed good of daily life, you usually arent a small company.

So in those cases (f.e. small company produces a product that will go into a bigger product) production chains have a bunch of other options to deal with those price increases - and they wont factor as prominently in 'costs of daily living'. If they immediately do, you know that you have a price cartel in a certain economic sector.. ;)

Donut shop might have to cut employees, but thats not a good of daily life. :) And that way they could hold their pricepoint. In reality 'artisan' donuts are high margin items (overpriced) anyhow, so if you arent able to pay your employees a little higher minimum wage, when everyone has to, your operation sucks, and maybe deserves to go out of business.. ;)
Eradicating the minimum wage would, if anything, expose and weed out big, greedy businesses that would turn to sweatshop work if given the option. Small businesses would flourish, and you would make what you earn, encouraging people to work longer and harder for bigger, fatter paychecks.
Expose? ;) The opposite is true. In an economy like the one you are describing, sustaining yourself becomes a problem, so jobsecurity would be something you'd also immediately look for (because you'll need multiple jobs to just sustain yourself), thats an advantage for the big honchos. :) At the same time you'd have immediate social unrest (everyone hungry and 'willing to work for food') and a 'people around here cant afford the products they are producing' problem (something Henry Ford had to do something about).

The lesson of industrialization was, that you had to pay your workers more, not less to be of basically any use, and not sabotage your process all the time. This struggle brought us social security nets in the first place. (Because they increased, not decreased productivity.)
The 1% got there because they worked hard. You should make what you earn. "Redistribution of wealth" is called communism, and it killed millions.
Thats an absolute lie.

On both accounts.

If you dont just look at millionaires/bilionaires (where aboiut two thirds are still self made (broadly catalyzed by new opportunities in technology and in emerging economies (india, china, mexico) src: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/26/maj...est-people-are-self-made-says-new-report.html ), you'll see this picture:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...and-dad-student-university-debt-a7509801.html

Again: The american dream is dead. For most people.
-

Redistribution of wealth is a normal function of government. In fact, its pretty much one of the only reasons why government exists.

Market economies are not fair. There are winners and losers. And if you done made another Detroit, you have to invest in sustaining infrastructure and people, because building that stuff up again, the next time some spoiled prick like you has a great business idea, that would work there, is far more costly than - sustaining it at a low level even for decades.

You are just a 15 year old fool, who knows absolutely nothing, but spews ideology. Learn some stuff, then come back again.

Dont try to push people out of discussion by asserting "redistribution of wealth is communism", no - its freaking what you pay taxes for Bobby.

edit: Here, read this: https://www.vox.com/2016/5/23/11704246/wealth-inequality-cartoon

and this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redistribution_of_income_and_wealth
 
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UltraSUPRA

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TheCasualties

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Lol so what is that supposed to show? People want express their anger?

So I have a question, How are they saying this situation is "Biden's America"? Everyone I know is .. Basically 'amazed'

I'm honestly hopeful for everyone growing up in this new generation.The US Government is supposed to be for the people. But now it's all about tax cuts for the rich.
 

Xzi

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In a ridiculously large crowd. Right next to each other.


Do you still say we can't vote in person?
Nobody's saying YOU can't vote in person. Nobody's saying that these protesters aren't taking a risk by ignoring social distancing guidelines either. That doesn't mean the same amount of risk should be required for people who simply want to have their votes counted in a supposedly democratic country. If the idea is to get as many people involved in our elections process as possible, then universal mail-in voting is the way to go even when we aren't in the midst of a pandemic.

On top of coronavirus to worry about, it's becoming increasingly likely that Trump supporters will be out intimidating and assaulting anyone in line to vote who doesn't have MAGA gear on. Just look at what's happening to random pedestrians in Portland right now, drive-by macings and shootings with frozen paintballs.

Of course, we've gone round in circles on this topic a million times by now. You want fewer votes cast because rampant voter suppression is the only means Republicans have of winning in the modern day. You don't want democracy, you want oligarchy akin to what China and Russia have.
 

deficitdisorder

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The number of voting frauds cases is a rounding error in favor of zero. Trumps own appointment commission to root out fraud in the 2016 election disbanded when they found literally nothing.

I like how this system of voting thats been used for literally a century is now somehow considered a massive fraudulent problem.
 
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Unfortunately since orange man said "mail vote bad" (while also trying to sabotage the mail system) quite a few of his followers believe it. Trying to refute will just result them not properly refuting the argument, or using circular thinking or some other logical fallacy.
 
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Hanafuda

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Ok so if mail-in voting is what the Left wants for the sake of Covid-19 safety (c'mon, man), and the USPS has already said getting all mailed-in ballots to their destination will take some days, then shouldn't we have a postmark deadline for mailing your ballot??? Let's say all ballots must be mailed by October 30, or else you go vote in person if you still want to vote. That way, all the mail-in ballots are delivered and counted in time for election day/night, and we can have a settled and reliable election result.

Fauci and Birx both have said in-person voting would be fine and safe, but since there is still (for some reason) so much insistence on the Left for voting by mail (I mean, we all know why) ... shouldn't this mailing deadline be something we all agree to as a compromise worth saving the integrity of the election?
 

Xzi

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Ok so if mail-in voting is what the Left wants for the sake of Covid-19 safety (c'mon, man), and the USPS has already said getting all mailed-in ballots to their destination will take some days, then shouldn't we have a postmark deadline for mailing your ballot??? Let's say all ballots must be mailed by October 30, or else you go vote in person if you still want to vote. That way, all the mail-in ballots are delivered and counted in time for election day/night, and we can have a settled and reliable election result.

Fauci and Birx both have said in-person voting would be fine and safe, but since there is still (for some reason) so much insistence on the Left for voting by mail (I mean, we all know why) ... shouldn't this mailing deadline be something we all agree to as a compromise worth saving the integrity of the election?
Best practice was already mailing in/dropping off your ballots as far ahead of time as possible, and that's doubly important in this election when you've got Trump's pet postmaster general deactivating sorting machines and removing as many mail dropboxes as possible from urban areas.

That said, if you continue to believe that voter fraud is much more prevalent through the mail than it is in-person, despite all evidence to the contrary, then I'm not sure why you would believe an earlier deadline somehow fixes the issue.
 

Hanafuda

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Best practice was already mailing in/dropping off your ballots as far ahead of time as possible, and that's doubly important in this election when you've got Trump's pet postmaster general deactivating sorting machines and removing as many mail dropboxes as possible from urban areas.

That said, if you continue to believe that voter fraud is much more prevalent through the mail than it is in-person, despite all evidence to the contrary, then I'm not sure why you would believe an earlier deadline somehow fixes the issue.


As I said, I believe it is the entire country's best interest if we can have the election settled in one night, as per mostly usual, and that the majority of the population can get on with the next day. Of course there is the possibility of a 'too close to call' deal, there is every time. But what I'm concerned about is mail-in ballots continuing to show up, being "found" after the fact ... the kind of shenanigans that already happens in some cases. Remember the Franken vs. Coleman election for Senate? Remember Bush v. Gore??? Democrats have this curious tendency of finding ballots for weeks after an election, in the backs of cars, in basements ... dismiss the possibility of fraud if you like but that shit happened. If we have to wait for "every vote" to come in through the mail after election day, there's going to be a lot of people having difficulty accepting the result. If it looks like Trump has won, Democrats will object that there's no way to know if every vote came in yet, if Trump somehow gamed the mail deliveries, etc. But if it looks like Trump has won on election night (Democrats are already conceding this likelihood, because a higher % of Democrats are expected to vote by mail) and then for days after election day Republicans watch that win being whittled down as more ballots show up and then more ballots show up and then more ballots show up, just enough showing up until Biden edges Trump out everywhere necessary to pull out the swing states, the Republicans aren't going to have any faith in it either.

So that's why I suggested the mail-in deadline. Two weeks should be enough for the ballots to get delivered to their local precincts. If the ballot is postmarked on or before October 30 (I just picked a mostly arbitrary date, two weeks in advance of the election, but it could be a different date) then it gets counted, on election day, along with all the in-person votes. After October 30, even if you received a mail ballot, it's too late, the deadline passed, go vote in person if it matters that much. That way, ALL of the ballots are "in" by the evening of election day. And we can almost certainly have a definite result, that night. No repeat of Bush v Gore, hanging chads (in this case, postage due???) etc. That was a damaging farce, I don't want to see it repeated, but right now it's like we're on a bullet train for even worse.

So, it's not about whether some level of fraud happens anyway even with in-person voting. It's just that mailing in ballots, besides the obvious hole in chain of custody involved, also creates this after election day trickle of uncertainty that isn't good for anybody.

Here's a video from earlier today from Tim Pool. I think you probably know who he is, but he was a major figure during Occupy Wall Street, he was an Obama Democrat, he was a Bernie supporter in 2016 ... now voting to re-elect Trump. You don't have to agree with his opinions, I'm just posting this to address the so-called "Red Mirage" thing the Democrats are foreshadowing us with, to normalize us to the idea that there will be an influx of post-election day ballots. All perfectly normal and valid, we told you this would happen ... go back to sleep.

 

Xzi

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As I said, I believe it is the entire country's best interest if we can have the election settled in one night, as per mostly usual, and that the majority of the population can get on with the next day. Of course there is the possibility of a 'too close to call' deal, there is every time. But what I'm concerned about is mail-in ballots continuing to show up, being "found" after the fact
I'd also prefer if it could be settled in one night, and that's precisely why I'm so pissed about the attempts to kneecap USPS' efficiency. All the worst-case scenarios you discuss in your post could easily be avoided if the Trump administration had just provided more resources and manpower to the USPS instead of less.

But if it looks like Trump has won on election night (Democrats are already conceding this likelihood, because a higher % of Democrats are expected to vote by mail) and then for days after election day Republicans watch that win being whittled down as more ballots show up and then more ballots show up and then more ballots show up, just enough showing up until Biden edges Trump out everywhere necessary to pull out the swing states, the Republicans aren't going to have any faith in it either.
I can only conclude that this is very much Trump's intentional strategy, to declare victory as early as possible with only 50% to 75% of the votes being reported, and prior to many important battleground states actually having been called for either candidate. Then cry foul later, call it an illegitimate election, demand Barr open an investigation, etc and so forth. It's a desperation play, and it certainly gives the appearance that he knows he's likely to lose.
 
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