1. diggeloid

    diggeloid GBAtemp Regular
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    The issue is a lot more complicated than what you're interpreting it as, and you clearly have some misunderstanding of at least how lawsuits work, if not the relevant facts here. I get that you hate Epic (I do too), but you're allowing your emotions to make you ignorant.

    The existence of Android does not mean Apple doesn't engage in anti-competitive practices, or own multiple monopolies in various industries. They do, and they have done so for a very long time. There are many years of evidence, many instances of competitors getting screwed over. This is a long history which you would need to research and learn about yourself to understand the context of this lawsuit, and I'm fairly confident you haven't done that research (which is perfectly understandable, since there's no reason for most people to bother with that).

    But in my case, I am a developer who has been dealing with Apple's (and other tech giants) bullshit for over a decade, and I have first-hand experience with their ruthless anti-competitive behaviors and practices. These are causing major harm to the various multi-billion-dollar industries they control, are stifling competition and innovation, and as a result are harming consumers and the economy of the United States and the rest of the world. Epic is doing a good job of illustrating that harm by showing how they can offer a 20% discount across the board if Apple/Google lower their excessive 30% commission. That is a major, tangible benefit to the consumer that will serve as an excellent example in the lawsuit.


    My only fear here is that the current political situation could fuck this up. With the US thinking about banning TikTok, WeChat, and other Chinese spyware, this move from Epic could be seen as an attempt by the Chinese government (through Tencent) to circumvent the ban by distributing those apps through their own appstore on iOS and Android. I don't know whether or not that is true, but I don't care, personally. Chinese giants like Tencent are propped up by government money and backing (through corporate espionage and similar). Even if they get a strong share of American industries in the short term, in the long term, American innovation will win. It always has, and it always will. And as long as there is room for competition, free market forces will allow us to continue to invent and innovate.

    But as it stands, we're moving at the beat of Apple's drum (and Google's/Microsoft's/Facebook's/Amazon's/etc).
     
  2. Viri

    Viri GBAtemp Addict
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    Cannot stand either company, and I think Google is getting way too fucking big. It's pretty scary how much power Google has. So, I am rooting for Epic, even though I cannot stand them as a company.
     
  3. VartioArtel

    VartioArtel GBAtemp Regular
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    I hate just about every company nowadays. Apple and Epic both are on my "Forbidden List". I shall not pay a penny to them, I forbid my family to the best of my ability from funding either. They're up there with Gamestop, Bethesda, EA, and a few others I can't remember off the top of my head but I damn well would seeing the company name.

    That you're implying that my pov is 'biased' is attempting to discredit my view based on your own personal bias in favor of Epic. Case in point, throughout this whole topic I've made it a point that I hate Apple every darn bit as much. Yet somehow, you zero in on the idea my hatred for Epic in particular is exceptional. This is the furthest thing from the truth.

    A monopoly is a structure in which a single supplier produces and sells a given product or service. If there is a single seller in a certain market and there are no close substitutes for the product, then the market structure is that of a "pure monopoly".

    Is Apple the only seller of mobile games? No.
    Is it the only one who provides a platform (service) to host mobile games on? No.
    Are they the sort to conflict with competition? Yes. They will attempt to shut down any competition within their rights. As I have gone over, they have a horrible history with Right to Repair, yet as the law stands now, they are protected although that is changing.

    There are *two* key points established to determine a monopoly:
    • A monopoly exists when there is only one producer and many consumers.
    • Monopolies are characterized by a lack of economic competition to produce the good or service and a lack of viable substitute goods.
    Neither of these points can be distinguished as Apple.

    Furthermore with some basic investigation into the subject of what the federal government deems a monopoly, the Sherman act covers:

    (1) anticompetitive agreements and (2) unilateral conduct that monopolizes or attempts to monopolize the relevant market

    Apple does not fall under 1. They are not forming agreements with other companies to shut out Google entirely.

    And 2 we both know without a doubt Google isn't moving the goalpost in their favor.



    I honestly don't buy this. It may be true, but anyone can claim "I am X working for Y". I can claim I'm Chris Barrett working for Bungie, and you couldn't really *prove* that without his aide (although "I" might be lying just to make the trail run cold that way).

    Also, many companies will claim that a business' practices are anti-competitive simply because they can't win. A Ma and Pa shop cannot compete with a Walmart due to the scale of connections and resources the company has. This doesn't on its own necessarily make Walmart an anti-trust, as an example. Likewise, it's rare for an average or low level development to hold its own vs Apple due to similar issues - more/more experienced coders, for example. Being able to get assistance/deals with multiple company leaders. As long as they aren't making deals forbidding the aide/business with a competitor, then honestly it's not a monopoly.


    The 30% Commission is more or less the industry standard.

    https://www.analysisgroup.com/globa...etplaces_a_comparison_of_commission_rates.pdf

    Bottom of Page 5:
    This is not a 'monopoly'. It is the standard. For someone who was coming here, calling me 'ignorant' for an implied bias of hatred against Apple, you did little to none of the studying. I don't even need to continue this discussion, with this lot alone, I've proven that you attempted to gaslight the people of this community by trying to convince them that Apple/google somehow are the villains and sole group that holds this 30% commission rate. Not only that, you attempted to convince these people that my views were ignorant on the matter. The difference between you and me? I was ignorant before posting this, and still did my due diligence. You didn't.
     
    Last edited by VartioArtel, Aug 14, 2020
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  4. diggeloid

    diggeloid GBAtemp Regular
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    I clearly wasted my time...
     
  5. VartioArtel

    VartioArtel GBAtemp Regular
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    Clearly I wasted mine as you proved my point. I provided proof, links, etc to my statements. You posted things and expect us to believe you with no proof at all? Because it's you? Get over yourself. You want to come to an argument you bring proof. Your real identity means nothing, if it does, you'll know where to go to get any evidence you need to make your case.

    I am not some sheep, I do not need a shepherd. What I need is evidence to make my own decisions without you telling me what to think. If your evidence is strong enough, you will change my logic. If you cannot provide enough evidence, then I will call you out on trying to gaslight.

    Edit: The only time one needs to give an opinion is when two people debate the same source of evidence and its purpose. Case in point: the intent of the 1984tnite video. I have had a few debates on it now, and made my point on its intent. So I believe in common debating circles the term here is "Show me the Carfax"?
     
    Last edited by VartioArtel, Aug 14, 2020
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  6. chrisrlink

    chrisrlink Intel Pentium III Hamster inside
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    on their computer end they definitely fall under 2 in more recent macs they installed the T2 security chip which prevents competition or rather 3rd party repair from doing their job essentially shutting out others from working on macs (without Apple's tools/software) look at nintendo/sony/microsoft as long as you don't modify hardware/software your free to replace/repair your consoles at the expense of voiding your warranty they dont go after 3rd party repair shops who does legit work (only modders)
     
    Last edited by chrisrlink, Aug 14, 2020
  7. J-Machine

    J-Machine Self proclaimed Pog champion
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    I'm sorry have you forgotten google exists? that there are other os phones besides IOS? That they treat things in a similar fashion? There is a reason epic also wants to sue google. But at the end of the day they are using their OS and their store fronts. I'm sure if enough products moved away form apple instead of complaining and staying around then apple would be forced to change cause that's capitalism. The analogy still stands. They chose to sell there when they had an alternative: side load on android.
     
  8. VartioArtel

    VartioArtel GBAtemp Regular
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    I don't see that as an issue under the current law. While again, scummy, and part of their anti-Right-to-Repair stance, there is nothing in current law stopping them from doing whatever they need to prevent 3rd party repair. Do i agree with it? No. But their stance is that releasing the repair info for their computers could infringe on their copyrights or whatever else, that's why this is meeting an effectively international level of resistance from both sides to get it repealed or secured. We may disagree with it, but the law currently is on their side. This requires law to be handled on an effectively national level, at the least, to get any change.

    I have followed Louis Rossman's videos (there is no one video I suggest on the subject as he has probably hundreds by now: https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup/featured ) on the subject for a good long while now, and while I'm no expert, I do understand this is, more or less, the stance they take, which is what makes it such a damned minefield making politicians hesitate from just approving right to repair. It also don't help Apple lobbies (which is also sadly not illegal) so heavily to ensure they keep their exclusivity.

    The problem is as I have stated before, an issue with capitalism. The concept may have gotten us out of the stone age, roughly, but it is also doing a hell of a job preventing further progress as the overemphasis on the system has turned politics into 'just another business', allowing for legitimate political control through money. This is a systemic problem that cannot be easily overturned, and it does nothing to prove that Apple has an actual legal monopoly. At most it proves they are protective of their IP under current law, as scummy a damned excuse as that is. Blame the law, not the company, in this case. It's a similar problem to Lootboxes and Gambling, if you want a similar case we can relate to. We believe the shit's illegal, we WANT the shit illegal, but the law sadly does not view it as illegal due to a bunch of annoying technicalities.
     
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  9. Lilith Valentine

    Lilith Valentine GBATemp's Official Snake™ CEO of Snakes
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    How did I predict Epic was going to sue Google too? Lol
     
  10. VartioArtel

    VartioArtel GBAtemp Regular
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    Because it was obvious they were going to rush to greed for every $0.30 they could to the dollar.
     
  11. SystemSpark

    SystemSpark Newbie
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    I'm interested to see how this turns out
     
  12. XDel

    XDel Author of Alien Breed: Projekt Odamex
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    All three of them could fall off the face of the Earth for all I care.
     
  13. ZeroFX

    ZeroFX Eh. What?
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    didnt burst my bubble, i know about apples manufacturing, and i dont care, i care about what i commented.
     
  14. Tweaker_Modding

    Tweaker_Modding Siezure Dice™
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    i saw that video on the switch version of fortnite completely not knowing it was removed from the App Store and Google Play. first thing I said was “What the fuck? is this a teaser for the next season? wait this is that apple commercial from the 80’s why they mentioning this?” to only then see the message at the end and i was like “oh i see now”
     
  15. dangopig

    dangopig Advanced Member
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    I'm ready with popcorn :ph34r:
     
  16. J-Machine

    J-Machine Self proclaimed Pog champion
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  17. Memoir

    Memoir Hi, I'm Cynical!
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  18. J-Machine

    J-Machine Self proclaimed Pog champion
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    the argument is over the stores themselves and consoles are just as closed as iphones and all three players have the same policies and 30% take. so should xbox, switch, and ps4 all open themselves to seperate storefronts to encourage competition?
     
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  19. TheCasualties

    TheCasualties Just trying to be helpful
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    Just want to say it's not only game storefronts that screw over the producers.

    When I sell my glass in a brick & mortar shop, they usually want 30 to 50, FIFTY PERCENT! And that's for consignment, Where I don't even see the money unless the piece sells in their store! If I'm selling wholesale I'll accept 30% pretty easy, since most places want 50%. Thankfully I found one shop that only takes 25%, and so I supply them with stuff.

    And this isn't some product that is infinitely available, I can't just copy/paste and create a new piece. I have to work hard to make each single product.

    So instead of getting rammed or jacking up my prices, I decided to sell it on my own direct to consumers. Which is why I like buying games on itch.io if possible, or directly buy steam keys where the devs get most, if not all, the money.

    So in short.. capitalism sucks. Swap Life!
     
    Last edited by TheCasualties, Aug 15, 2020
  20. Dimensional

    Dimensional GBAtemp Advanced Fan
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    Please read every discussion I had on this thread. I clearly stated that there other phones, and my analogy was meant to be taken as a hypothetical, not a literal. Please avoid picking a single statement out of a massive amount of text to then take out of context. It doesn't help anyone's arguments, only makes everyone hate one another more.
     
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