Ukraine Crisis

BORTZ

DO NOT SCREENSHOT
Supervisor
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
13,243
Trophies
3
Age
34
Location
Pittsburgh
XP
15,971
Country
United States
According to my hyper conservative boss, its going to go down 2 ways.

-Russia moans about human rights and how they should own the Ukraine and then do nothing like North Korea's posturing last year.
or
-Russia actually takes back the Ukraine and then everything goes back to normal.

But i dont really know anything to add, other than I really hope the US doesnt play world police with this conflict...
 
  • Like
Reactions: EZ-Megaman

osirisjem

I miss the Wii remotes
Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2011
Messages
1,116
Trophies
1
XP
1,157
Country
Canada
Russia actually takes back the Ukraine and then everything goes back to normal.
If this happened, which it won't, Russia would receive such harsh economic sanctions, they will eventually cave in a year or two. Putin knows this .... that's why it won't happen.

Putin needs to show he's Mr. Tough Guy ..... and then he'll stop all his hostilities and claim he's Mr. Nice Guy too.

PutinBarechested2[1].jpg
 

Taleweaver

Storywriter
Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
8,685
Trophies
2
Age
43
Location
Belgium
XP
8,066
Country
Belgium
EDIT: ...and before someone accuses me of pro-Russian thinking, I'd like to underline that I'm all for a free Ukraine, but you can't replace one devil with another. Free Ukraine? Yes. In the hands of radicals? No, bad idea. When was the last time when an ultra-right-wing party took over a country and made things "better"? Ah, yes, that never happened.
Sorry, but thus far, I'm not entirely convinced that the Banderans are actually the neonazi rightwings you make them out to be. From what I've read on Stepan Bandera, he is certainly the worst kind of mascot you can have (aside perhaps Adolf himself) but I can't seem to find anything on the political agenda of the current Banderans, aside from breaking free of the Russians. Surely they know that any support they have from the EU (or America, for that matter) will dry up in an instant if they turn out to still have that same ideology toward Jews or Poles as seventy years ago. :unsure:

If this happened, which it won't, Russia would receive such harsh economic sanctions, they will eventually cave in a year or two. Putin knows this .... that's why it won't happen.
Dude...seriously? If you want to pass as an adult in a discussin like this, try pulling up a figure that would prove this sort of statement. :angry: To my knowledge, Russia is far more economically self-sufficient than their neighbors (especially in the gas-department) so in this scenario, I think it's more likely the EU will "cave in" when their supplies get cut off. :rolleyes:
 

anhminh

Pirate since 2010
Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2010
Messages
1,594
Trophies
1
Age
31
XP
3,364
Country
Vietnam
Ukraine people are in the deepest sh*t hole of debt but the world only care about their government change and Russia movement.
 

Foxi4

Endless Trash
Global Moderator
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
30,818
Trophies
3
Location
Gaming Grotto
XP
29,787
Country
Poland
Sorry, but thus far, I'm not entirely convinced that the Banderans are actually the neonazi rightwings you make them out to be. From what I've read on Stepan Bandera, he is certainly the worst kind of mascot you can have (aside perhaps Adolf himself) but I can't seem to find anything on the political agenda of the current Banderans, aside from breaking free of the Russians. Surely they know that any support they have from the EU (or America, for that matter) will dry up in an instant if they turn out to still have that same ideology toward Jews or Poles as seventy years ago. :unsure:
For starters, they're stating that "Volhynia is a Lie" which is the equivalent of Germans saying that "Auschwitz was a Lie" or Russians saying that "Katyn was a Lie". You can't randomly find 50.000-60.000 dead bodies in a forest and claim "didn't happen!". It happened, it was well-organized and it was performed meticulously - deal with it instead of propagating blatant lies.

Secondly, according to Andrij Tarasenko, a spokesman for the group, "it would be just if several cities would return under Ukrainian jurisdiction, this includes Przemyśl and several other cities in the region" - Przemyśl happens to be a Polish city, it always has been, it's been a subject of dispute for over a thousand years now. It's interesting how they're not talking about returning Lwów, another Polish city currently under Ukrainian jurisdiction, to Poland. In other words, they want to move westwards not only politically and metaphorically, but also physically because they preach about their imaginary claim to lands that were never even theirs in the first place.

Now, I have no doubt that the party has European aspirations, and thank God for that because there's not a whole lot of "good" things they could find eastwards, but I'm simply not sure if I'd like to associate with them in any shape or form, not with their legacy and their manipulative views on history. It's true that they couldn't have had a worse mascot and I can understand why they regard Bandera as a hero since he was a crucial contributor to Ukraine's fight for freedom, but at what cost? Murdering civilians, women and children is not heroic. By extension we can say that Adolf Hitler should be regarded as Germany's hero since he contributed to its economic revival after the first world war. You have to draw the line somewhere, it's a simple matter of good taste.

I'm all for Ukraine's freedom and all for them moving further away from Russia and closer to Europe, and the Banderans want specifically that, but I have a sneaking suspicion that if you give them an inch, you'll give them a mile. I feel that once they come to power, they will establish themselves as the reigning party and obliterate the opposition for the sake of their "good cause". Perhaps it shouldn't be my concern, perhaps it should be the concern of Ukrainians, but I simply have no love for radicals like this. Them taking over the great majority of the government spells trouble. I applaud Ukraine's freedom movement, but I feel that this organization is using it to take the country over. We've seen this happen time and time again - think Fidel Castro or Saddam Hussein.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Taleweaver

Taleweaver

Storywriter
Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
8,685
Trophies
2
Age
43
Location
Belgium
XP
8,066
Country
Belgium
For starters, they're stating that "Volhynia is a Lie" which is the equivalent of Germans saying that "Auschwitz was a Lie" or Russians saying that "Katyn was a Lie". You can't randomly find 50.000-60.000 dead bodies in a forest and claim "didn't happen!". It happened, it was well-organized and it was performed meticulously - deal with it instead of propagating blatant lies.

Secondly, according to Andrij Tarasenko, a spokesman for the group, "it would be just if several cities would return under Ukrainian jurisdiction, this includes Przemyśl and several other cities in the region" - Przemyśl happens to be a Polish city, it always has been, it's been a subject of dispute for over a thousand years now. It's interesting how they're not talking about returning Lwów, another Polish city currently under Ukrainian jurisdiction, to Poland. In other words, they want to move westwards not only politically and metaphorically, but also physically because they preach about their imaginary claim to lands that were never even theirs in the first place.
Thanks for the information. I did some quick google on the subject, and it's even worse than that... :( I found this article, in which someone (a certain lucretius) translated an interview with Tarasenko in a Polish newspaper, along with an interpretation of the response by the top of the party itself:

Off topic. Today's Polish newspaper "Rzeczpospolita" has an interview with the leader of "The Right Sector", an ultra-nationalist Ukrainian group that has been involved in a lot of hard fighting with Yanukovich's thugs from the Berkut. I have translated the interview and have decided to post it here without a comment, except for noting that his thinking seems rather similar to one regular commenter on this blog.
Q: Why do flags of UPA and portraits of Stepen Bandera fly over the Maidan?
Andrij Tarasenko: Our organisation, The Right Sector, carries the name of Bandera. He is the symbol of the revolutionary struggle for the independence of our country. If it were not for him, the Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) would not have existed and without OUN there would be no independent Ukraine today. Our nation lived for hundreds of years lived under the occupation of various empires and those who fought for liberation united around great heroes: Mazepa, Petlura, Bandera. The same it true today.
Q: For the inhabitants of east Ukraine Bandera is, however, not a hero but a traitor. Would it not be better to find someone who unites Ukrainians rather than divides them?
Andrij Tarasenko: It is not Bandera who divides Ukrainians but the propaganda of imperial Russia. Moscow always acted on the principle:divide and rule. That’s why it presented Bandera in negative light. If not for that Bandera would unite today all Ukrainians. I myself come from the east, but I am a follower of Bandera.
Q: However, Bandera was the inspirator of the Volhynia massacres, as a result of which more that 100,000 Poles were murdered. Isn’t he responsible for genocide?
Andrij Tarasenko: This is rubbish. I know exactly the history of UPA and know that this is simply false. Admittedly, Bandera recommended using radical methods, but one has to resist the occupier by all means. Particularly when the occupier does not want to leave your land.
Q: But these were the years of war so is hard to claim that the Poles were “occupiers”.
Andrij Tarasenko: Our country was occupied by Germans, Poles, Rumanians, Hungarians and Russians.
Q: Poland is today the most important ally of Ukraine in its fight for independence. Isn’t it for this reason a tactical mistake to display on the Maidan the symbols of UPA?
Andrij Tarasenko: I understand this but we are Bandera men and we cannot give up our convictions for tactical reasons.
Q: Are the current borders of Ukraine just ones?
Andrij Tarasenko: A nationalist is someone who aims at united all the ethnic lands of his nation, those where Ukrainians lived for thousands of years. Otherwise he cannot be called a nationalist. After the war the “Operation Vistula” caused Ukrainians to be expelled from these ethnic lands but justice demands that they should return to Ukraine. I am speaking about Przemyśl and a number of other districts.
Q: How do you intend to achieve this.
Andrij Tarasenko: My diplomatic means. We are not an imperial nation, we do not demand the lands of others, we want only what is our own.
Q: However, one cannot be a member of the EU and at the same time demand the change of borders.
Andrij Tarasenko: The place of Ukraine is not in the Union; this would be contrary to the idea of the national state. Anyway, even in Poland there are many people dissatisfied with the fact that the international structures limit the country’s sovereignty.
Q: Ukraine will not be safe balancing between Russia and Western Europe.
Andrij Tarasenko:: That’s why we must have nuclear weapons. We have may experts in Ukraine who can restore them very quickly.
Q: When will the Maidan revolution end?
Andrij Tarasenko: When Yanukovich leaves. In order to achieve this, we are ready to use all means, even the most radical ones. This is what Bandera did. Yanukovich understands only force, and if we had not used it, he would not have offered negotiations.


Rzeczpospolita’s interview with Tarasenko has (not surprisingly) caused a huge uproar in the Polish media so the “Right Sector” today published a response.
http://espreso.tv/new/2014/01/...
Unfortunately it is only in Ukrainian so I will this time only summarise the contents.
The interview is described as a “provocation”. The provocation consiste in asking “provocative” questions and then quoting replies “out of context”. Next follow the “correct” views of the Right Sector, grouped into 5 points.
1. About Bandera. Every nation can choose its own heros. Other nations do not have to view them as such. For example, just as Ukrainians do not view Józef Piłsudski as a hero so they don’t expect Poles to view Bandera as such and they are counting on Poles getting rid of their chauvinist assumptions and accept other nations right to have their own heros.
2. As for the event is Volhynia: they should be seen in the wide historical context (which includes the Polish occupation and colonisation of Ukrainian lands). Ukrainians killed Poles and Poles killed Ukrainians and that was a tragedy for both nations. Not is not the time to make out of this tragedy a wall that divides the two neigbouring peoples.
(My addition: the fact that the victis of the Ukrainian massacres of Poles in Volhynia outnumbered the victims of the later Polish retaliation by 50:1 is probably considered by the Right Sector as, to borrow the famous phrase from Le Pen Senior, “a historical detail”.
Also nobody mentioned the large number of Jewish victims of UPA, whom nobody could describe as “occupiers” or “colonisers”.)
The third point is the most interesting:
3. These days it makes no sense to bring back old territorial claims. Both Ukrainians and Poles face two dangers: on the one hand Moscow imperialism and on the other (wait for it)
globalism, american imperialism, the power of transnational corporations and demo-liberal dictatorship.
This last phrase sounds quite familiar. The only new thing is the phrase “demo-liberal”. The usual one that one hears from people of similar views is “neo-liberal”.
4. Ukrainian nationalist consider Ukrainians of Polish origin as follow citizens and have no problems with them.
5. Ukrainian nationalist seek an alliance with Polish nationalist against their common enemies, as described in 3.

Just...wow. I thought that denying Volhynia was bad. But depicting it as "something that should be seen in wide historical context" is actually much worse.

...and that part of Przemysl and "a number of other districts" is just frightening to an almost absurd level (I can't help thinking "slowest Blitzkrieg ever", but that sort of humor probably gets lost on most 'tempers). I feel kind of sorry for not immediately believing you, foxi, but c'mon...where the hell does that even come from? I mean, Christ...how the hell can the EU not respond to this? FFS... :wtf:

AND WHY THE HELL DOES THAT GUY (OR THOSE GUYS) WANT FREAKIN' NUCLEAR WEAPONS????? You would think that of all the fucking countries, THEY should know better than to mess with those things. :whip:

(okay, three mile island didn't exactly stop the Americans, but still...)

Foxi4 said:
Now, I have no doubt that the party has European aspirations, and thank God for that because there's not a whole lot of "good" things they could find eastwards, but I'm simply not sure if I'd like to associate with them in any shape or form, not with their legacy and their manipulative views on history. It's true that they couldn't have had a worse mascot and I can understand why they regard Bandera as a hero since he was a crucial contributor to Ukraine's fight for freedom, but at what cost? Murdering civilians, women and children is not heroic. By extension we can say that Adolf Hitler should be regarded as Germany's hero since he contributed to its economic revival after the first world war. You have to draw the line somewhere, it's a simple matter of good taste.

I'm all for Ukraine's freedom and all for them moving further away from Russia and closer to Europe, and the Banderans want specifically that, but I have a sneaking suspicion that if you give them an inch, you'll give them a mile. I feel that once they come to power, they will establish themselves as the reigning party and obliterate the opposition for the sake of their "good cause". Perhaps it shouldn't be my concern, perhaps it should be the concern of Ukrainians, but I simply have no love for radicals like this. Them taking over the great majority of the government spells trouble. I applaud Ukraine's freedom movement, but I feel that this organization is using it to take the country over. We've seen this happen time and time again - think Fidel Castro or Saddam Hussein.
I wouldn't feel so bad if they took over the country if it wasn't for what you said. As it stands, those who are fighting for Ukrain certainly aren't the good guys. :(
 

RodrigoDavy

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2011
Messages
1,453
Trophies
0
XP
879
Country
Brazil
I guess what people know about this depend on where they're from. In my country, where the media is mostly right-wing and pro-USA (even though our government is left-wing and nationalist) all we hear is that Ukraine wants to join the EU, the Russians are the bad guys and the EU and USA are the good guys who sincerely want to help Ukraine but unfortunately can't do anything because it would cause a WWIII.

Foxi4 version of facts seemed like an interesting way to view the facts, although I'm not sure if it has some of his own opinions or even his country media opinion in it. But it seems a good version nevertheless.

Personally I support Russia ideologically in this conflict, but at the same time because I am an American I have to support my country because doing nothing will show the international community that the USA is weak and a nation that only talks.
Yet, it's not a USA problem. I quite frankly don't understand why the US think they can mind everyone else's business.
People think the US pressure is making things better when it's making thing worse.
 

dragonmaster

Ancient One
Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2005
Messages
612
Trophies
1
XP
1,642
Country
Greece
well as i studied history at university and my main bachelor was on history of nations like greece rome and modern history i must say only one thing don believe the media believe the people most historical books where made from the side of the winner or in modern days from the side of the media . my opinion is that the biggest looser will be the people of Ukraine cause no real freedom exist for small nations .my country history is an example of that .
 

weatMod

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
3,305
Trophies
2
Age
47
XP
3,336
Country
United States
whats your opinion in whats happening in Ukraine?

Mine is that Russia trying to start Cold War II. The Ukrainian people have spoken and they want to be part of the E.U. and don't want to be a dog of Russia.

Russia is claiming its protecting its peoples human rights.. so how.

the EU is a mess, , they both suck, US and israel didnt get their way in syria because of putin so they engineered a color revolution in ukraine to punish putin ,this is not a real popular uprising, they never are,just another crisis engineered by CIA and NGO's of course people hate their governments, everyone does, but they will be no better off joining the failing eurozone, look at greece, spain and the rest of the piigs , economic disaster 60%unemployment , anyone who thinks they will be better off under Eu are deluding themselves, russia and putin are also corrupt ,but the people are just pawns so either way they still lose
 

Foxi4

Endless Trash
Global Moderator
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
30,818
Trophies
3
Location
Gaming Grotto
XP
29,787
Country
Poland
That's the article I was referring to myself, actually. I'm sure nothing wrong can come from radical nationalists getting their hands on nuclear weaponry, especially when they hold a grudge against my country. :) Now you see why this is reason for concern for me. I find it really sad that the E.U. and, of all people, my own government forgot so quickly what those people represent.
I guess what people know about this depend on where they're from. In my country, where the media is mostly right-wing and pro-USA (even though our government is left-wing and nationalist) all we hear is that Ukraine wants to join the EU, the Russians are the bad guys and the EU and USA are the good guys who sincerely want to help Ukraine but unfortunately can't do anything because it would cause a WWIII.
That's what our media are telling us as well, which is why you have to dig a little deeper than what's offered on the media's platter.
 

tofast4u

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2012
Messages
464
Trophies
1
Age
28
XP
1,092
Country
United States
the EU is a mess, , they both suck, US and israel didnt get their way in syria because of putin so they engineered a color revolution in ukraine to punish putin ,this is not a real popular uprising, they never are,just another crisis engineered by CIA and NGO's of course people hate their governments, everyone does, but they will be no better off joining the failing eurozone, look at greece, spain and the rest of the piigs , economic disaster 60%unemployment , anyone who thinks they will be better off under Eu are deluding themselves, russia and putin are also corrupt ,but the people are just pawns so either way they still lose
Welcome Alex Jones/David Duke to the forums!
 

Flame

Me > You
OP
Global Moderator
Joined
Jul 15, 2008
Messages
7,210
Trophies
3
XP
18,382
looks like Crimea might be torn apart from Ukraine.

I really dont want Foxi4 to be right, i really dont want a big amount of people who are neo-nazi in Europe . I'm hoping for the best for Europe and Ukrainians to be more like the Scandinavia's who are about love and peace.
 

trumpet-205

Embrace the darkness within
Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2009
Messages
4,363
Trophies
0
Website
Visit site
XP
693
Country
United States
Just on a side note, Putin is a nominee for the Nobel Peace Prize this year. Unbelievable, either I'm insane or the world literally turned upside down when I wasn't looking.
The whole Nobel Peace Prize has long lost its meaning. Now days pretty much anyone can be nominated for any reason. Obama got the peace prize, now its Russian turn.
 

Foxi4

Endless Trash
Global Moderator
Joined
Sep 13, 2009
Messages
30,818
Trophies
3
Location
Gaming Grotto
XP
29,787
Country
Poland
The whole Nobel Peace Prize has long lost its meaning. Now days pretty much anyone can be nominated for any reason. Obama got the peace prize, now its Russian turn.
To get the Nobel Peace Prize, you sort of have to propagate peace. It used to hold some meaning and was the crowning of lifetime achievements for the cream of the crop. Those who only recently entered the scene like Obama or warmongerers like Putin shouldn't even be considered nominees - there's hundreds of better candidates who have dedicated their lives to upholding peace across the globe.
 

oodhfshdfbs

Active Member
Newcomer
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
40
Trophies
0
XP
85
Country
United Kingdom
based on my limited knowledge and going by the news reports and information I have read and watched ,I think the country may split. so you have a chrimean state in the south being recognised as separate from the ukraine and new elections in kiev electing someone who is more pro europe. the south/east will move closer politically to russia and the west will align itself more with europe/eu.
 

weatMod

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
3,305
Trophies
2
Age
47
XP
3,336
Country
United States
To get the Nobel Peace Prize, you sort of have to propagate peace. It used to hold some meaning and was the crowning of lifetime achievements for the cream of the crop. Those who only recently entered the scene like Obama or warmongerers like Putin shouldn't even be considered nominees - there's hundreds of better candidates who have dedicated their lives to upholding peace across the globe.

what are you talkng about they gave one to henry kissinger, he probably killed more than bush and obama combined , so this is not a new phenomenon its always been BS
 

Site & Scene News

Popular threads in this forum

General chit-chat
Help Users
    Veho @ Veho: