1. RationalityIsLost101

    RationalityIsLost101 GBAtemp Regular
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    Were they handed by the white house to congress as part of the impeachment inquiry? Care to show evidence of this?

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    How does a proven debunked conspiracy theory for Ukraine holding the DNC server play into our national interest?

    Multiple intelligence agencies debunked this long ago yet we still have our president push a false narrative.

    Can you prove that this serves a purpose more than his own political interest when there is no basis to his claim?

    To use that as a defense it has to have some ground. I don't see any there. If you can prove otherwise then perhaps it could stand as a defense.

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    The number of times someone draws an inference doesn't dispute direct evidence that is presented. For more information on what direct evidence is presented that was previously ignored by people like @cots see excerpt from Ms. Garcia. I'm awaiting legal textbook references of direct evidence that would dispute the former judge, otherwise will hold her standard to be an accurate portrayal.

    As far as Sondland having access to records or not, the amount of information he provides and how it is presented. It would be necessary to review his deposition and hearing to gain a better view of his actual stance and motivation as a witness.

    This would be something a Jury would have to take into account when looking at inconsistencies in any testimony.
     
  2. Josshy0125

    Josshy0125 Banned
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    Damnit, Joe!!
     
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  3. Xzi

    Xzi All your base are belong to the proletariat
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    In case anyone missed it, here's the full text of the resolution to impeach:

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-resolution/755/text

    And we got a surprise double whammy last night, with a resolution calling for the resignation and disbarment of William Barr:

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-resolution/757/text?r=18
     
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  4. cots

    cots Banned
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    The hearing is still going strong. I guess @Xzi missed the link to the original PDF Congress released regarding the impeachment. It was much longer than whatever the fuck he just posted. I suggest if you want to read the the official charges to refer to the actual official charges. So now we need to get rid of Barr? Well, why not? I mean, seeing as you don't need any particular reason to impeach a President firing the attorney general for no reason should be a trivial matter.

    So far the Democrats are echoing each other in a real life chamber. Lots of whining about losing in 2016 election and complaining about Constitutional abuses, which is funny considering the premeditated impeachment is abuse of the Constitution or the fact Liberals who want to rip up the Constitution are bitching about it how they are defending it. LOL! So far other than the whining they've not presented anything new and as we all know what's been presented so far during this schitt shot has no substance. While it's live on TV and has been going on all day it seems every hour they bring up the same shit. Probably for people who will only tune in for an hour or so. It's just good to finally hear the Republicans side as this entire time the Democrats wouldn't let them call their own witnesses.

    They're also antagonizing the Democrats about Trump denying to give a shit about the supeanas - the shit is funny. I didn't know the Democrats threatened to take away the paychecks from any witnesses who wanted legal representation with them during testimony. I guess if you want legal representation they'll make sure you're not paid for a while. Blackmail is fine when Congress is threatening witnesses. Not that suprising considering the context surrounding the impeachment. Democrats also refused to accept some new Republican information claiming it was fabricated because they didn't like it, with no proof it was fabricated. Then they're still floating the Russian conspiracy hoax and openly admit they're doing it so he won't win in 2020 regardlessof how it turns out. Yeah, so not much new so far. Not sure how much longer it'll last. The Republican goal for today was to get as much air time as possible so they're intentionally dragging it out. I'm on day #2 of being awake and I still gotta go do stuff once this is over ...
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
  5. Fugelmir

    Fugelmir GBAtemp Fan
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    Trump looks so good right now. He even has the Democrats saying that Zelinski is being held hostage or being dishonest -- which justifies any withholding.
     
  6. RationalityIsLost101

    RationalityIsLost101 GBAtemp Regular
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    It would be politically disadvantageous for the president of Ukraine to confirm to his nation that he was pressured to announce an investigation at behest of the US President for a variety of reasons. Three of which I list below.

    1. It could damage his reputation as a anti-corruption reformer and would embolden his political opponents to pounce on hypocrisy.

    2. It could endanger continuation of aid in future budget years. Trump already proposed to cut the aid sent for anti-corruption reform to Ukraine already but it was struck down due to bi-part opposition in congress. Just FYI at a minimum they need to secure 2020 aid before we hold presidential elections and it is a tossup as to which party will secure the next election cycle.

    3. It could endanger the supportive foreign policy if Ukraine is re-framed as politically biased towards one US political party over another. We could turn a deaf ear and just decide to let other nations deal with Russian's aggression towards Ukraine.

    There is no political benefit for Zelensky to come out and claim Trump pressured him. Democrats will still support Ukraine as they are framed as the 'victim'. Republicans would still vote to acquit Trump because they have no other leadership ready to transition off to yet and view it far more politically damaging to concede to any reality that would have Trump guilty.
     
  7. Fugelmir

    Fugelmir GBAtemp Fan
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    Yeah, it's such an advantageous situation for Trump. It totally calls for more skepticism on foreign aid in the future! Brilliant, wonderful performance.
     
  8. RationalityIsLost101

    RationalityIsLost101 GBAtemp Regular
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    Its not blackmail. That's just not what blackmail means. Sigh...

    If @cots read any of the white house letter I attached in our discussion on the thread of whether or not executive privilege is valid in a formalized congressional impeachment inquiry he would have been aware of this almost a month ago. He persisted in arguing about white-house exerting absolute immunity during that entire latter half of the thread without ever looking at the document.

    It just validates how useless discussions w/ hyper-partisans are when they refuse to even read any source that they perceive will conflict with their views.

    https://gbatemp.net/threads/questio...ed-impeachment-inquiry-subpoena.552832/page-4

    https://apps.npr.org/documents/docu...te-House-Letter-to-Speaker-Pelosi-Et-Al-10-08
     
  9. Xzi

    Xzi All your base are belong to the proletariat
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    So you're admitting that what is advantageous to Russia is also advantageous to Trump? He's sure as shit not calling for a review of the foreign aid we provide to Saudi Arabia or Israel (both very corrupt governments in their own right), this is exclusively about limiting US support of Ukraine.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
  10. Fugelmir

    Fugelmir GBAtemp Fan
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    It could be. Israel is a technological mastermind factory and should probably be supported. Saudi Arabia, aside from material resources, doesn't have much to offer. All countries suffer from government corruption. Hopefully a lot more aid gets cut as a result.

    It's a nice thing to help a country achieve a free democracy; but if it just doesn't happen for decades, what's the point, really?
     
  11. RationalityIsLost101

    RationalityIsLost101 GBAtemp Regular
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    The skepticism for foreign aid is already present in American politics. This does little to move the needle for or against support. It just polarizes the topic to a democrat vs republican rather than fiscal vs not. I'm sure there are other subcamps that would describe pro foreign aid vs against.

    Foreign aid has many uses as it is a type of influence that US can use as part of its foreign policy to push pro american agenda/interest. For the past few decades it hasn't always been used properly and is prone to corruption from corporate influence that aims to personally profit on political leverage applied to other countries.

    You also have examples where politicians also seek kickbacks as well for enacting our foreign policy with other countries, often via those same exploitative corporations. Something I think most Americans do not support but has been rampant on both sides and persists even to this day in our current administration.

    Until we overturn citizens united I don't see this changing no matter who we elect.

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    Uhh, Saudis buy a ton from our military industrial complex.

    Israel is a technological mastermind factory? I'm sorry can you explain this further I'm lost as to what you are asserting.

    One of the primary reasons we want to promote 'democracy' (I believe regime change is more accurate a term) imo is due to ensuring trade that benefits our interests, or what I believe more accurately whoever's interests the party in power serve, which for the past few decades have been corporate interests first, american public second.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état

    America's backed coup in Iran in 1953 is a good historical example of us toppling a democracy because they had the audacity to assert unfavorable trade conditions to us. At least this is my best understanding of that situation.
     
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  12. Xzi

    Xzi All your base are belong to the proletariat
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    Israeli technology and weapons would be shit without everything the US provides for them, we should be spending that money on the betterment of our own country rather than using it to enable Palestinian genocide. Saudi Arabia has demonstrated that they have nothing but hatred for America and our people time and time again. In neither case is there any chance of Trump or the Republicans distancing themselves from these countries, because the relationships remain profitable for our military industrial complex.

    The point is that Ukraine is a firewall preventing Russia from staging an even larger-scale invasion of other countries, as well as waging a new form Cold War against Western democracies the world over. If a majority of people in free nations remain ignorant and apathetic, history is doomed to repeat itself.
     
  13. IncredulousP

    OP IncredulousP GBAtemp's Resident Bastard
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    Yay, thanks Santa! What a beautiful gift to hang on the fridge! :grog: And even a bonus resolution in the stocking!

    Huh, never really thought about it but I didn't know his middle name.
     
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  14. Glyptofane

    Glyptofane Death Dealer
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    You know he's in trouble when they use his middle name.
     
  15. cots

    cots Banned
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    Damn they are still at it. I'm on some other forums and we've started a pool on who in this session will fall asleep first. I bet $50. The Democrats want to know what Rudy Giuliani is doing in Ukraine this week. He's still digging up dirt on them. I wonder how many more ammendment propositions the Republicans have planned? This shit is epic. 12 hours straight and still no actual evidence has been presented by the Democrats. No fact witnesses - only assumptions. The Senate is now trying to talk Trump out of a witnesses trial as they want to take care of the matter in less than a week. I wonder if Trump wins if the Liberals will finally admit they lost in 2016 and cut the shit?
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
  16. Xzi

    Xzi All your base are belong to the proletariat
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    You're the one that needs to cut the shit. Impeachment is in no way, shape, or form a means to overturn elections. Anybody who believes that garbage needs to re-take middle school civics/government classes, assuming they've ever taken one to begin with.
     
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  17. RationalityIsLost101

    RationalityIsLost101 GBAtemp Regular
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    Hyper-partisan view from @cots. It can equally be argued that republicans refuse to even acknowledge direct evidence presented by either witness testimony, call memorandum, or Giuliani's interviews vs a preferred right-wing narrative that there lies 'no evidence whatsoever'.

    @cots also demonstrates once again he doesn't understand what an actual fact witness is despite people bringing it to his attention multiple times in this thread.
     
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  18. cots

    cots Banned
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    I agree with you, which is why it's a shame the Liberals planned to use it to oust Trump since before he took office. I do wonder though, seeings as the Liberals now claim to support the Constitution if when Trump beats this if they'll admit defeat. You'll have the 3 branches working things out. If you only take the Congress side and continue to harass Trump with impeachment then you're not going by the separation of powers. You know what else is unconstitutional? Rejecting the results of an election due to the fact you don't like the electoral college. Though, the Liberals claiming they support the Constitution had me laughing for like 2 minutes straight. I had tears in my eyes as they're so full of shit I couldn't stop laughing.

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    21:30 Mountain Time (USA) - Wednesday, December 12th, 2019

    Well, it looks like it's over. The Republicans didn't want it to end, but they weren't given much choice in the matter (actually, they were given no choice). I guess I won't be losing or winning that $50. I still don't know why the other day Republicans brought up the fact Sonland lied that he didn't have access to his State Dept records when he testified under oath to Congress, but not bring it up today. I wonder how much attention will be given to the Republicans testimony by the main stream media. Some funny shit did happen! Biden's son was a crack head at one point in his life. Not only does crack dependence greatly reduce your cognitive skills for years, but crack addicts will do whatever it takes to get more drugs, including stealing and sex acts. I wonder if daddy bailed him out on a daily basis and bought him his dope so he didn't have to go suck a fat drug dealers dick to get his fix. I understand that this had nothing to do with the impeachment, but it fucking cracked me up. To be fair the Democrats kept bringing up totally unrelated shit to the impeachment today, like the new Canada and Mexico trade agreement they were bragging about (yet, they forget to inform the public Trump was behind it). Trump's such a danger to the free world, yet we have the best economy in 50 years ... If that's a threat I'll take two more orders. Let's clone him.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
  19. Xzi

    Xzi All your base are belong to the proletariat
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    This is an equally moronic argument. It's like suggesting Republicans planned, before he was elected, to impeach Clinton for a blowjob by using Lewinsky as an undercover agent. It's impossible to know ahead of time whether or not a president will commit impeachable offenses. The best anyone can do is guess and/or use past behavior to predict future behavior.

    Will you admit defeat when impeachment passes the House? Didn't think so. How is it any more significant that the Republican-controlled Senate will vote not to remove him from office? It isn't. Your childish obsession with "winning" and "losing" borders on a psychological disorder, and it's that type of simplistic understanding of how the world works which is going to cause the downfall of this country.
     
  20. Josshy0125

    Josshy0125 Banned
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    You're fighting an up-hill battle my friend. The politically-ignorant don't concede, nor do they listen to logic. They've got blinders up and just want to "stick it to the libtards". You won't change his mind. He's too held back by his own delusions, bias, and hatred for the other party. He's part of a cult. You can't change somebody who's part of a cult...
     
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