Trump: Don't let Coronavirus dominate you.

[deinonychus71]

Neither of them seem to have much of a concrete plan for this, or if they do they arent sharing. Its populism vs populism, both claim everything will just be fine if you vote for them without telling us how.

Well yeah, that's American politics 101. Insult your opponent, shower them with ads against them so you don't have to talk about your own program and ideas
Americans and American medias in general have no idea how to debate.

First step to debate is to respect your opponent. If you can't do that, you're not debating.

 

[kevin corms]

The media is not a homogenious blob.

If it werent for 'the media' no one would talk about anything in this forum.

If it werent for the media Trump also would not have been elected. In 10 or more ways.

You are spreading misinformation - and do it so vaguely, that its hard to disprove you. Because you are voicing a believe.

Yes they are one big blob owned by only 15 people at this point https://www.forbes.com/sites/katevi...n-americas-news-media-companies/#9854108660ad

second two points.. maybe?

last point, laughable.

You see the rapid downfall of the media started with Reagan, Clinton killed it off completely. Deregulations and allowing monopolistic practices, here we are now where you cant trust anything and the media actively tells you what to think.

 

[gregory-samba]

I was actually reading some articles earlier on how N95 masks miss some larger particles but trap really small ones. It has something to do with static if I remember correctly in how really small particles move in nature. I can't find it now.

The problem I have is that with surgical masks it won't mask an asymptomatic person from spreading the Covid-19 basically at all, just them breathing expels the virus into the air surgical mask or not. (Giving a false sense of security)

I believe this could even lead to more susceptible people getting Covid-19. The media could be responsible for older people thinking incorrectly they have some level of protection from a surgical mask. If you are high risk, I would not be going around ANY kids/teens/young adults (proven to produce a lot of virus output compared to adults) My mom falls into that category. I kept warning her. Irony is she found out she already had it back in June, she has anti-bodies. She just thought it was bad allergies.

The smaller covid particles cling to larger saliva and other types of particles you exhale so the surgical masks will stop some of them, but the main point of wearing a surgical mask or cloth covering is the stop the cloud you exhale. If you look up videos of people exhaling (with the infrared light to see) you'll notice the cloud of stuff you exhale goes really far away and is much larger if you're not covering your mouth. That's why if you've got to sneeze and don't have a mask simply sneezing into your shirt does help more than just exhaling out in the open.

I do also agree if you're at risk, like if you're old and have a bunch of health issues that catching the virus is more risky than other groups catching it. In that case you should stay home. N95 rated masks would also be a good choice if you can find and afford them.

 

[kevin corms]

The media is not a homogenious blob.

If it werent for 'the media' no one would talk about anything in this forum.

If it werent for the media Trump also would not have been elected. In 10 or more ways.

You are spreading misinformation - and do it so vaguely, that its hard to disprove you. Because you are voicing a believe. Nothing else.


And a debate shouldnt be about 'but I'm also entitled to a believe' without bringing examples, saying why....

Again - the people falling for that kind of propaganda, are the most stupid people in society, that have to look for the simplest explaniations for everything, and then stick to them, because it makes them feel informed.

Regardless, of that also being the thing that riles you up most, about liberals telling you all day. Part of it is an actual problem. If you need everything broken down to 'most easy level' - you will never have a sense of whats going on. That 'experts' do not as well, and that media is sensationalistic (more money), that outlets have some form of structural bias (financing), all is true at the same time.

Its driving everything to the extreme, on your part thats the problem (we against media). Democracy depends on you coming up with your own media outlets - not denounce people that are enabling an informed, and open (and yes, in some form biased) discussion.

Just because you are too stupid to understand that 'why cant I get ONE unbiased media outlet' (like state media in russia) never can be a solution. And that you not paying for news adds to the issue here - please dont promote an opinion that will literally destroy democracy.

Preventing counterspeach that gets heard, is the first thing a fashist does.

I guess ill respond to the edit... personal attacks and fallacy arguments... of course. I wouldnt expect anything else from someone trying to defend the media, their pundits, their paid think tanks. When you read an article claiming experts said something, do me a favor and actually check out who they are sourcing... read the studies to see if they make sense. Start with Fox News if you want to see it from one group at its strongest, check msnbc for the other side. At least they arent spreading islamophobia anymore now that they have boogieman Trump and domestic groups fighting in the streets.

 

[scroeffie1984]

#SAVETHEKIDS

 

[notimp]

Because if they did, they would be telling everyone to get N95 masks if they want to avoid transmitting/receiving the virus. Surgical masks make no difference that would matter according to the CDC. This is what it is, until they decide to change it for political reasons:

Missinformation.

Lies.

Wrong advice.

They arguable reduce rate of spread by half. They arent used for 'personal protection' they are used to slow down spread.

People in Japan (tightly packed cities), dindt wear chirurgical masks for ages, because they were duped, as entire societies, the do it - as a mitigation measure.


But the - you actually are stupid - thing becomes the issue here. Because when you actually tell people, that clothmasks, and surgical mask arent 'personal protection', they react like you do. And the time to then try to convince them, no - but you see, having you not spit into another persons face while you are speaking (micro droplets), and reducing the "cloud" of aerosols with the virus in it around you in size - also has its benefits - statistically.

But those benefits also could be reached, by people just - on their own - performing social distancing (distance between themselfs), and the better they do that, the less you need masks -- telling them all that in the yellow page news, makes no sense.

Most people would lose the train of though at the first half paragraph, and I'm not even joking.


Furthermore "telling people to get N95 masks for protection" would be DANGEROUS. Those are still in short supply and needed for medical personal, for the health system not to brake down in the middle of an epidemic.

So the more you tell people details, the more you have to bank on them, to also draw the right conclusions, and not act like absolute morons, in you case... (Help, media is lying to us!?)

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

If you want to act like morons, and spread dangerous ideas, go back to you far right breading places, and hate on society - and media - there.

 

[eyeliner]

I agree with Trump. I never worried about it back in December 2019 when I first heard about it, didn't worry when the entire "we have to shut down for 2 weeks to slow the curve" deal and after 11 months I'm still not worried about. Worrying is pointless. You shouldn't be a scared baby and let these sorts of things control you. Sure, take precautions, but it's not a really deadly virus with only around a 1% death rate. It's also good to stay positive and own the moment as being a little whiny pussy never helps anyone.

The problem with the virus is not the death rate. It's the transmission rate that makes it special. It's not like mad cow disease, or that chicken whatever that, comparably, killed no one.

 

[crimpshrine]

The smaller covid particles cling to larger saliva and other types of particles you exhale so the surgical masks will stop some of them, but the main point of wearing a surgical mask or cloth covering is the stop the cloud you exhale. If you look up videos of people exhaling (with the infrared light to see) you'll notice the cloud of stuff you exhale goes really far away and is much larger if you're not covering your mouth. That's why if you've got to sneeze and don't have a mask simply sneezing into your shirt does help more than just exhaling out in the open.

I do also agree if you're at risk, like if you're old and have a bunch of health issues that catching the virus is more risky than other groups catching it. In that case you should stay home. N95 rated masks would also be a good choice if you can find and afford them.

I found what I was referring to before:

“N95 have the worst filtration efficiency for particles around 0.3,” Marr said. “If you’re smaller than that those are actually collected even better. It’s counter intuitive because masks do not work like sieving out larger particles. It’s not like pasta in a colander, and small ones don’t get through.”

N95 masks actually have that name because they are 95% efficient at stopping particles in their least efficient particle size range — in this case those around 0.3 microns.

Why do they work better for smaller ones? There are a number of factors at play, but here are two main ones noted by experts:

The first is something called “Brownian motion,” the name given to a physical phenomenon in which particles smaller than 0.3 microns move in an erratic, zig-zagging kind of motion. This motion greatly increases the chance they will be snared by the mask fibers.

Secondly, the N95 mask itself uses electrostatic absorption, meaning particles are drawn to the fiber and trapped, instead of just passing through.

“Although these particles are smaller than the pores, they can be pulled over by the charged fibers and get stuck,” said Professor Jiaxing Huang, a materials scientist at Northwestern University working to develop a new type of medical face mask. “When the charges are dissipated during usage or storage, the capability of stopping virus-sized particles diminishes. This is the main reason of not recommending the reuse of N95 masks.”

So if Covid-19 particles were 400 nano meters in size, N95 masks would not help.

But because they are anywhere from 5-120 nano meters in size, N95 masks work. But if the anti static feature wears off, then even an N95 mask is not going to keep out covid-19.

 

[notimp]

I guess ill respond to the edit... personal attacks and fallacy arguments... of course.

You are spreading dangerous misinformation. You are hurting everyone that believes you.

Of course personal attacks. But also - information.

Because I dont want you to stay an idiot in all those things for your entire life.

But then - you are producing more people blieving into absolute idiocies - as we speak. So personal attack so that you could at least potentially see the 'wrongs of your ways' and rethink positions.

 

[crimpshrine]

Missinformation.

Lies.

Wrong advice.

They arguable reduce rate of spread by half. They arent used for 'personal protection' they are used to slow down spread.

People in Japan (tightly packed cities), dindt wear chirurgical masks for ages, because they were duped, as entire societies, the do it - as a mitigation measure.


But the - you actually are stupid - thing becomes the issue here. Because when you actually tell people, that clothmasks, and surgical mask arent 'personal protection', they react like you do. And the time to then try to convince them, no - but you see, having you not spit into another persons face while you are speaking (micro droplets), and reducing the "cloud" of aerosols with the virus in it around you in size - also has its benefits - statistically.

But those benefits also could be reached, by people just - on their own - performing social distancing (distance between themselfs), and the better the do that, the less you need masks - makes no sense.

Most people would lose the train of though at the first half paragraph, and I'm not even joking.


Furthermore "telling people to get N95 masks for protection" would be DANGEROUS. Those are still in short supply and needed for medical personal, for the health system not to brake down in the middle of an epidemic.

So the more you tell people details, the more you have to bank on them, to also draw the right conclusions, and not act like absolute morons, in you case... (Help, media is lying to us!?)

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

If you want to act like morons, and spread dangerous ideas, go back to you far right breading places, and hate on society - and media - there.

What are you talking about? I posted a CDC source.

 

[kevin corms]

You are spreading dangerous misinformation. You are hurting everyone that believe in you.

Of course personal attacks. But also - information.

Because I dont want you to stay an idiot in all those things for your entire life.

Im spreading which disinformation? what the heck are you going on about? I think you are watching/reading too much media, you are using some of their techniques to paint me as doing something without any actual evidence of it.

 

[gregory-samba]

-- please delete --

 

[eyeliner]

I agree the transmission rate is very large, but even the WHO who says we've had Globally, as of 3:07pm CEST, 6 October 2020, there have been 35,347,404 confirmed cases of COVID-19 yet they believe that number isn't accurate and it's more like 760 million. Due to the fact that the infection rate is probably 2q

There you have it. It's not the killing per se, but the prospect of it if it hits the most fragile.

 

[notimp]

What are you talking about? I posted a CDC source.

Is the idea, really so hard to understand?

Freaking heck.... This is getting to become work in here. We did this for half a year, you people never listened and learned.


WHILE surgical masks, and cloth masks are made from fabric that is too roughly weaved to prevent the virus from going trough them (its actually smaller, than the distance between treads), they prevent you spitting in other peoples faces (micro droplets, that are 10 to 100x larger than the virus, to which the virus attaches), and they reduce the diameter of the 'aerosol' (microdroplets so small they float in the air, with the virus attached), cloud around you.

So surgical masks protect other people - by statistically, reducing infection rate, per person, by about half. That percentage is dependent on 'how well people social distance', if they are A+ at holding distance and washing hands and, ... effectiveness of surgical masks goes down, because its hard to spit in someones face from edit 10 feet away, while talking.

*grrr*

DONT try to front with 'I dont know what you have - I posted CDC sources' if you have NO idea how to interpret what they tell you.

Misinterpretation still is misinformation.

 

[gregory-samba]

The problem with the virus is not the death rate. It's the transmission rate that makes it special. It's not like mad cow disease, or that chicken whatever that, comparably, killed no one.

Globally, as of 3:07pm CEST, 6 October 2020, there have been 35,347,404 confirmed cases of COVID-19, including 1,039,406 deaths, reported to WHO. However, the WHO estimates that 760 million have been infected, which is 21 times more than what we know now. That means the virus is much less deadly than originally thought. So it does have a higher infection rate than the flu or some previous virii, but it's really not that deadly. The trend is the more people we test the lower the death rate becomes. I wonder then if the infected total was indeed 760 million how much lower the death rate would be, as most of the 760 million didn't die.

EDIT: Sorry, my first reply got cut off for some reason. Glitchy software.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

I found what I was referring to before:

“N95 have the worst filtration efficiency for particles around 0.3,” Marr said. “If you’re smaller than that those are actually collected even better. It’s counter intuitive because masks do not work like sieving out larger particles. It’s not like pasta in a colander, and small ones don’t get through.”

N95 masks actually have that name because they are 95% efficient at stopping particles in their least efficient particle size range — in this case those around 0.3 microns.

Why do they work better for smaller ones? There are a number of factors at play, but here are two main ones noted by experts:

The first is something called “Brownian motion,” the name given to a physical phenomenon in which particles smaller than 0.3 microns move in an erratic, zig-zagging kind of motion. This motion greatly increases the chance they will be snared by the mask fibers.

Secondly, the N95 mask itself uses electrostatic absorption, meaning particles are drawn to the fiber and trapped, instead of just passing through.

“Although these particles are smaller than the pores, they can be pulled over by the charged fibers and get stuck,” said Professor Jiaxing Huang, a materials scientist at Northwestern University working to develop a new type of medical face mask. “When the charges are dissipated during usage or storage, the capability of stopping virus-sized particles diminishes. This is the main reason of not recommending the reuse of N95 masks.”

So if Covid-19 particles were 400 nano meters in size, N95 masks would not help.

But because they are anywhere from 5-120 nano meters in size, N95 masks work. But if the anti static feature wears off, then even an N95 mask is not going to keep out covid-19.

Yeah, I've read about this subject months ago. I didn't mean to claim you were wrong about surgical masks not filtering out the particles, but just wanted to say that they do indeed help reduce the dispersal rate, mainly because the covid particles cling to larger particles. They are not fool proof, but not completely useless.

I did hear about a plan that was scrapped to send everyone in the USA masks. I think that was a good idea, because lots of people that can't really afford masks that I see walking around have been wearing theirs for days if not weeks. If you're going to require everyone to wear a mask at the Government level it would probably make sense to send everyone a mask that works.

 

[crimpshrine]

Is the idea, really so hard to understand?

Freaking heck.... This is getting to become work in here. We did this for half a year, you people never listened and learned.


WHILE surgical masks, and cloth masks are made from fabric that is too roughly weaved to prevent the virus from going trough them (its actually smaller, than the distance between treads), they prevent you spitting in other peoples faces (micro droplets, that are 10 to 100x larger than the virus, to which the virus attaches), and they reduce the diameter of the 'aerosol' (microdroplets so small they float in the air, with the virus attached), cloud around you.

So surgical masks protect other people - by statistically, reducing infection rate, per person, by about half. That percentage is dependent on 'how well people social distance', if they are A+ at holding distance and washing hands and, ... effectiveness of surgical masks goes down, because its hard to spit in someones face from three feet, while talking.

*grrr*

DONT try to front with 'I dont know what you have - I posted CDC sources' if you have NO idea how to interpret what they tell you.

Misinterpretation still is misinformation.

What CDC said:

Disposable medical masks (also known as surgical masks) are loose-fitting devices that were designed to be worn by medical personnel to protect accidental contamination of patient wounds, and to protect the wearer against splashes or sprays of bodily fluids (36). There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza.

We did not find evidence that surgical-type face masks are effective in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza transmission, either when worn by infected persons (source control) or by persons in the general community to reduce their susceptibility (Figure 2). However, as with hand hygiene, face masks might be able to reduce the transmission of other infections and therefore have value in an influenza pandemic when healthcare resources are stretched.

You do realize the vast majority of Covid-19 transmissions out there in the "wild" occur when people are showing 0 symptoms. That is why so many people keep getting it. There are many asymptomatic people, and people that do develop symptoms have a period of time before (and after) that they can continue to spread it.

Virus particles from Covid-19 are so small that you mine as well be wearing wire mesh on your face.

Social distancing helps, it does NOT help indoors in small spaces (what constitutes small I don't know)

Being outside where you have air movement is the best with social distancing. Do I think surgical masks for the majority of cases helps either? NO.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Globally, as of 3:07pm CEST, 6 October 2020, there have been 35,347,404 confirmed cases of COVID-19, including 1,039,406 deaths, reported to WHO. However, the WHO estimates that 760 million have been infected, which is 21 times more than what we know now. That means the virus is much less deadly than originally thought. So it does have a higher infection rate than the flu or some previous virii, but it's really not that deadly. The trend is the more people we test the lower the death rate becomes. I wonder then if the infected total was indeed 760 million how much lower the death rate would be, as most of the 760 million didn't die.

EDIT: Sorry, my first reply got cut off for some reason. Glitchy software.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Yeah, I've read about this subject months ago. I didn't mean to claim you were wrong about surgical masks not filtering out the particles, but just wanted to say that they do indeed help reduce the dispersal rate, mainly because the covid particles cling to larger particles. They are not fool proof, but not completely useless.

I did hear about a plan that was scrapped to send everyone in the USA masks. I think that was a good idea, because lots of people that can't really afford masks that I see walking around have been wearing theirs for days if not weeks. If you're going to require everyone to wear a mask at the Government level it would probably make sense to send everyone a mask that works.

Sure I get it stops something, but we are talking about really small particles. No one even knows the virus dose level to my knowledge to infect someone with Covid-19 yet. So if it is determined to be X, and they find that even with a surgical mask on you emit X whether you have symptoms or not, then that would mean it basically does not help at all. (even if it can be calculated out to help .8 % or something)

 

[gregory-samba]

What CDC said:

Disposable medical masks (also known as surgical masks) are loose-fitting devices that were designed to be worn by medical personnel to protect accidental contamination of patient wounds, and to protect the wearer against splashes or sprays of bodily fluids (36). There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza.

We did not find evidence that surgical-type face masks are effective in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza transmission, either when worn by infected persons (source control) or by persons in the general community to reduce their susceptibility (Figure 2). However, as with hand hygiene, face masks might be able to reduce the transmission of other infections and therefore have value in an influenza pandemic when healthcare resources are stretched.

You do realize the vast majority of Covid-19 transmissions out there in the "wild" occur when people are showing 0 symptoms. That is why so many people keep getting it. There are many asymptomatic people, and people that do develop symptoms have a period of time before (and after) that they can continue to spread it.

Virus particles from Covid-19 are so small that you mine as well be wearing wire mesh on your face.

Social distancing helps, it does NOT help indoors in small spaces (what constitutes small I don't know)

Being outside where you have air movement is the best with social distancing. Do I think surgical masks for the majority of cases helps either? NO.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------



Sure I get it stops something, but we are talking about really small particles. No one even knows the virus dose level to my knowledge to infect someone with Covid-19 yet. So if it is determined to be X, and they find that even with a surgical mask on you emit X whether you have symptoms or not, then that would mean it basically does not help at all. (even if it can be calculated out to help .8 % or something)

I just advise you to go watch how coverings over your mouth and nose effect the dispersal rate of what you exhale. You might look at simple cloth coverings differently afterwards?

 

[notimp]

Disposable medical masks (also known as surgical masks) are loose-fitting devices that were designed to be worn by medical personnel to protect accidental contamination of patient wounds, and to protect the wearer against splashes or sprays of bodily fluids (36). There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza.

And if your reaction to that is 'well' I think weve been lied to by media then - you still havent got a flipping clue.

First: Behavioral aspects:

Second: It heavily depends on your surroundings as far as I have understood it. If you go by "main vectors are mukus spread by f.e. talking to another person", and "concentration of the virus in aerosols around you" BOTH of them get reduced significantly by wearing surgical masks.

And now we are getting into statistics. If I sit on public transportation, and I'm infected, and the reach of my aerosol cloud might get reduced by half - and so is everyone elses, is that a benefit? And as far as I understand it it is. Same with not spitting another persons face.

So at this point, I would have to see what the CDCs analysis is based on. (What was the testing scenario.)

 

[SonowRaevius]

[Deleted]

 

[crimpshrine]

I just advise you to go watch how coverings over your mouth and nose effect the dispersal rate of what you exhale. You might look at simple cloth coverings differently afterwards?

I have seen it. The problem as I mentioned before is most spreading of this occurs with people that have no symptoms. When a person (especially a younger person) who is positive, is JUST breathing. They are exhaling particles out of their mouth every time they breath. And as the CDC has reported just the act of breathing by one of these people in an enclosed space. leave these particles suspended in air for up to hours (depending on humidity level) The drier the longer they could be airborne. The question would then be, what percent of these particles does a surgical mask block? With a new N95 mask it has been determined to be enough.

With a surgical mask, that is not the case.

So then take someone who is symptomatic.

They are the same as above but their mask is catching large things we can see. But everything else that is not stuck in phlegm, like the asymptomatic person above is going to go through or come into a surgical mask.

But to be clear, I am no anti-masker. I have been wearing them when I go to the store since this started. But now that I understand limitations on these masks and the sizes of virus particles, it does not make technical sense to me.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

And if your reaction to that is 'well' I think weve been lied to by media then - you still havent got a flipping clue.

First: Behavioral aspects:

Second: It heavily depends on your surroundings as far as I have understood it. If you go by "main vectors are mukus spread by f.e. talking to another person", and "concentration of the virus in aerosols around you" BOTH of them get reduced significantly by wearing surgical masks.

And now we are getting into statistics. If I sit on public transportation, and I'm infected, and the reach of my aerosol cloud might get reduced by half - and so is everyone elses, is that a benefit? And as far as I understand it it is. Same with not spitting another persons face.

So at this point, I would have to see what the CDCs analysis is based on. (What was the testing scenario.)

The CDC found no help from surgical masks.

I believe they are correct. It adds up in my mind based on the size of the virus particles.