Question The REAL Reason why no XCI support outside of SXOS

Discussion in 'Switch - Emulation, Homebrew & Software Projects' started by Grmmish, May 13, 2019.

  1. Sumandora

    Sumandora Im using Parental Controls. Change my Mind!

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    Please cite Nintendos code in Sx Os
     
  2. stitchxd

    stitchxd GBAtemp Regular

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    nope
    Ripped games do not have a certificate for digital install I thought?
     
  3. ZachyCatGames

    ZachyCatGames GBAtemp Advanced Maniac

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    Hell
    There’s a difference between telling various sysmodules to do things, and directly including copies of Nintendo’s code...
     
  4. Sinon

    Sinon "AutumnWolf!"

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    You already know the reason, in fact you mentioned it yourself on your first post
     
  5. xtrem3x

    xtrem3x GBAtemp Regular

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    Even though both NSPs and XCIs are used to pirate games, XCI has a certain stigma around it that people immediately associate with piracy. A lot of homebrew devs want to keep their moral high ground so instead of including XCI support they continue to push the idea that XCIs are for piracy so as a respectable homebrew dev they won't endorse it. Of course, anybody with half a brain cell will know that supporting NSPs will allow piracy and a pirate will find a way regardless of if you include XCI or not so the whole point it totally moot.

    It does however help SX OS haters take a moral high ground, even though their switches are probably full of illegal NSPs... Go figure.

    I just use whichever CFW is easiest so my daughter doesn't mess things up. If that means spending £35 then that's ok because I have a job. Right now imo that's SX OS with emunand and XCI support. In the future it maybe something else. Don't know and don't care :)
     
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  6. RednaxelaNnamtra

    RednaxelaNnamtra GBAtemp Advanced Fan

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    No, that's the reason I would like an open source xci loader in a cfw that gives proper credits to devs they use code from, but currently I'm only able to use my dumps online with sxos, so I'm kinda forced to continue using it instead of atmosphere, if I don't want to miss that feature.

    Also in my opinion the only real benefit of xcis for pirates is usb loading, besides of this only people who dump their own games will have benefits.

    A small thing about the illegal implementation argumemt, it doesn't need to be a problem for an open source implementation, because from what I read it would probably be possible create a tool to read out the needed data yourself.
     
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  7. Grmmish
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    Grmmish GBAtemp Fan

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    Before I start replying. I will tell you:
    I am NOT bashing on any of the talented people that work on SXOS, Atmosphere, any of that. I am also not trying to start a war on whether SXOS is better or not, whatever. I personally don't care within this post since it is not the reason. I would like for the REAL developers that omit these features to give me their ACTUAL explanation. Not outside users with theories and speculation. Or "She said he said" stuff. But I can work with what I have. I will also try to debunk many reasons here as perhaps not actual answers. That being said..... without further ado:


    How is NSP anymore relevant to Homebrew? They both can run homebrew. With this logic, it seems to me they just "Rolled a dice" and decided which they would use to carry out their homebrew business.
    Also how does NSP loading NOT require copyrighted material to make work? And why can't XCI loading be implemented where we need to provide our OWN version of these copyrighted materials to make work?



    Please do not give such preposterous claims without directing me to the answer. Yes. I KNOW this has been explained. But that is not relevant to my point on this post. The REAL ANSWER is relevant. As I assume you have links to the answer (Which also do not fall under speculation and he-said she-said such...) please do link them as I wish to know.


    If what you say is true, how does that stop Atmosphere from deciding to make the same exact thing, excluding the firmware and keys "etc." to a point where we need to provide them ourselves for functions to work? Hactool and such programs are very widely accepted; but to keep everything legal, they force us to provide our own keys and such. Is this a matter of laziness? Lacking of interest? Etc.? Please explain these. I will also say this is not speculation to debunk it.

    This all seems like a lot of speculation but I will respond anyway.
    If you feel XCI is illegal, what would make NSP illegal as well in your mind for you to feel NSP is no less illegal?
    Considering homebrew can be implemented into xci form... XCI is not "only illegal".
    Whether you feel there are reasons to buy and use it or not is a bit off topic, my friend.
    I know you were simply trying to make a point that the points made by people does not seem as efficient answers, and at this point I also feel the same.


    You are contradicting yourself. "XCI files are *MAINLY* rips from games. NSP files are very much so, but not always." As far as you just told me.... XCI files are very much so.... But also not always. So how does there exist a difference?
    "A *LOT* of homebrews are installed as nsp files." You are telling me facts that are very irrelevant to WHY they are installed as NSP files. WHY The decision was made is not present here... Only that the decision was made making these sentences highly irrelevant.
    "Emunand is not for piracy only, homebrew as well." And how does that have anything to do with XCI and NSP? XCIs are ALSO not ONLY for piracy given the fact homebrew can be in XCI format as well.
    "To keep your system.... The rest of this sentence." This information is not relevant to why SXOS is the only in which implements XCI loading. Yes, the benefits of having EmuNAND is to be discussed elsewhere.
    "SXOS have been cracked many times." This is the only relevant thing said in this post and this is HIGHLY speculation and he-said she-said. You seem to be assuming SXOS are the inventors of xCI loading outside of Nintendo and Atmophere has not figured it out. Please revise your comment to give a more clear answer.


    Yes yes. I would like the XCI mounting as well simply because it is more great features. But how is emuNAND relevant? Unless you are simply replying and not answering at all....



    The reason for me is because I do not HAVE SPACE. I have 128 GB MicroSD. I like to cram AS MANY games as possible on them. NSP-only loading is simply causing this to not be possible. As simple as that. It is also the benefit of not waiting to install but if I had to wait then I don't care. I have to wait.... But how is the wait worth it when I cannot "EASILY" delete my SPECIFIC games (From computer) without a Switch (Which also does not know how to differentiate the games, updates and DLC from each other if I deleted the standard way.) and when I cannot cram as many games into there? Not only that, I change games a LOT. I have far too many games to stick with one, since these days many Switch games hardly interest me and the ones that do I already beat. I also do not understand where this emotion thing derives...

    This is VERY off topic but I felt you deserve an answer just out of kindness.
    I also do not understand this "Derail into tribalism". If anything, this irrelevant comment only steers into more irrelevance.


    As I said, if Linuxares is right, how can they simply not do what Hactool does as far as forcing us to provide our own information from our own cartridges and Switch? XCI loading is a cool feature. I know the PS3 guys who made mounting ps2 isos and ps3 games are a COMPLETELY difference set of beings with different morals and views, but what's next? Mounting PS3/Iso games would be considered illegal too since they decided we should not be able to do that unless we provide our own keys? As I have said. Far more malicious things in the past has been done. How is this ACTUALLY benefiting from it, especially when some work could be done to give us cool features and make it less.... Piracy-induced.
    As far as I see from everyone's comments (All mainly speculation.) the Atmosphere guys don't seem to like TX since they seem to encourage piracy by giving everyone malicious features. But how is taking the features away going to make us feel they are wrong? That is more of some backward logical thinking. If they want to steer us AWAY From TX, then give us MORE and better features... But the NON-piracy way. An example would be to give us XCI loading but we must give our own keys so no one would feel the need to buy TX's products.
    Due to the many many workarounds here and lack of facts, none of these seem to be the correct answer.
    I WILL, however, take "They are simply not inspired to make that." the correct answer. But then that would simply arouse the question "Why not?". But I will only take it if it is not speculation.
    I also am not entirely sure if what linuxares has stated is speculation or not but I will not hold that against anyone here.
    P.S.: So as a developer we are not allowed to use copyrighted material. Makes sense... But if THAT is the case.... We are also not allowed to use the Joycons to navigate homebrew menus since... The code to make the controllers work is also copyrighted unless you make your OWN code which makes them work... Also throw in your own hardware and sell those as well to be extra caution.
    My point here is... I do not see how the applications that allow us to install NSP files is not considered "Using Nintendo's NSP code to implement NSP installing." anymore than "Using Nintendo XCI code to implement XCI loading." is considered piracy and illegal. Especially if it would be "Revised" and made into a way in which they.... DON'T use Nintendo code to mount XCIs???


    Please direct me since I do not know the reason. Unless you mean the description of THIS post? Either way, if my reasons given is true (Only used for piracy, etc.) please tell me how that is the reason atmosphere has not implemented xci loading.






    EXTRAS: I also saw a comment (but I guess I forgot to grab it?) stating "There's a difference from telling system modules what to do, than from packaging copyritten code.". This is true... But how is XCI-loading any less of a system module than NSP installing? Is it because the installation ability is not considered tampered with? As far as I know, XCI loading is BUILT INTO the system no differently than NSP installing. So this can't be right....
     
    Last edited by Grmmish, May 13, 2019
  8. Sinon

    Sinon "AutumnWolf!"

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    Atmosphere´s developers are against piracy
     
  9. Grmmish
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    Grmmish GBAtemp Fan

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    Of course. But that does not answer my question here since XCI is not anymore "Piracy" induced than NSP is to be as far as much of the knowledge goes gained here.
     
  10. Sinon

    Sinon "AutumnWolf!"

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    -They don´t need or are going to develop an "xci loader" because it would be used mostly for piracy
    -Atmos doesn´t allow piracy by itself, it needs some extra patches, why would they make it easier for pirates to pirate?
     
  11. rob4

    rob4 Member

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    And they do absolutely nothing to prevent piracy on the CFW
     
  12. Sinon

    Sinon "AutumnWolf!"

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    Well yeah, they just let people know they don´t support it, but they know they can´t stop pirates, they know people will find a way around so they don´t bother trying to stop it
     
  13. Grmmish
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    Grmmish GBAtemp Fan

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    EAXACTLY. They don't allow it by itself.
    XCI loading isn't piracy itself. Just like NSP installing isn't piracy itself... Yet they allow one but not the other? What if they disabled NSP installing and enabled XCI loading? Is that "More piracy than the other" when they both have the exact same use just in different ways? These reasons are telling me what the first guy told me: They rolled a die and decided which ONE to choose and disable the other.
    That's like banning PS3s since (PRETEND) MOST people use PS3s for piracy and homebrew these days while the buyers of video game consoles buy PS4s.
    That is not logical since that is not it's intended purpose. NSP piracy is not it's intended purpose. for Atmosphere enabling it, the intended purpose is so we can install homebrew. (Non piracy.) But how is that any different than XCI? The intended purpose would not be to pirate if Atmosphere enabled it. But to mount homebrew.... BOTH are EVENLY MATCHED when it comes to which is more piracy-induced than the other. It's only coincidence one is used more for piracy than the other. It seems more and more like they rolled a die/said "Which one have people been using to pirate more? XCI? Ok let's ban that because people abused that more."
    With all of this logic that seems to not make sense too much, they are better off ONLY allowing .nro files to be run and disable both NSP installing AND XCI loading altogether if piracy is really the idea here.

    EXTRA:
    My point is XCI loading is no different than NSP installing.
    Both have the same chance of being used for piracy.
    Both have the same chance and ability to be used for homebrew.

    So saying XCI is more piracy than the other (As far as using it goes) does not add up. If Atmosphere team does not want to influence piracy, then why choose NSP if the pros and cons seem to be the same as far as piracy goes? Removing one wrong from two does not make a right... Yeah it may make a.. I guess "Less wrong" but that does not change the fact it's wrong if the idea is to prevent piracy because they both give the option for piracy equally. So piracy can't be it. It really seems to me like some random guy came out of their ass with the idea Atmosphere disabled it because of piracy and people started making reasons around that. I'm NOT saying that is true but it sounds like it when no one is giving real Atmosphere citations and quotes from the guys themselves. Just seems to me they left it out for their own reason, kept it out (Maybe because of piracy, who knows.) and never told anyone to this day why?
     
    Last edited by Grmmish, May 14, 2019
  14. RednaxelaNnamtra

    RednaxelaNnamtra GBAtemp Advanced Fan

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    Atmospehre is not supporting nsp installations that are not your own eshop dumps that are properly signed for your console by itself, only when you use external patches you can install converted nsps, homebrew nsps or pirated nsps.

    — Posts automatically merged - Please don't double post! —

    Also here is a post from a dev about this topic:
    https://gbatemp.net/threads/whats-the-challenge-with-the-xci-loader.520247/page-3#post-8324588

    and a bit from him about the possibility of the user dumping this information by himself:
    https://gbatemp.net/threads/whats-the-challenge-with-the-xci-loader.520247/page-4#post-8440923
     
    Last edited by RednaxelaNnamtra, May 14, 2019
  15. Grmmish
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    Grmmish GBAtemp Fan

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    <3

    No more discussion. Original post edited.
     
    Last edited by Grmmish, May 14, 2019
  16. Townsperson

    Townsperson GBAtemp Fan

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    The problem with XCI files is the loader makes use of ripped data from a game card that is absolutely copyrighted and 100% illegal to include. I'm sure an XCI loader could be written, but it would be as illegal as the one SX OS uses, so no one is going to make it.

    NSP files require no stolen code to actually function, so they are a far more legal file format.
     
  17. stitchxd

    stitchxd GBAtemp Regular

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    nope
    I don't believe XCI will come to anything other than sx os because it requires Nintendo files to create it (like the older nxthemes files used to require.) However, there are XCI -> NSP converters if you are willing to be a little risky (I wouldn't!)
     
  18. RednaxelaNnamtra

    RednaxelaNnamtra GBAtemp Advanced Fan

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    I wouldn't be able to use them online this way.
    Also about the required nintendo files, check out the second link in my other post:
     
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  19. stitchxd

    stitchxd GBAtemp Regular

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    nope
    Thanks bud! That all makes sense. I'm sure an open source solution can be done, that doesn't use any nintendo files / code. Reverse engineering is legal to an extent, and create a kip driver(?) to read xci in an open source way is possible, but damn hard at this time because missing tools is the gist i got from that.
     
  20. Grmmish
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    Grmmish GBAtemp Fan

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    Everything has been answered effectively by actual developer topics and even answered why we can't do it ourselves. Thanks for the help everyone that replied here. :]
    So basically everyone who is buying TXs products are no different than junkies buying heroine? Ah. Well... Maybe excluding the extra Junky detail. XD So Atmosphere does not even do the NSP thing either it seems.
    EDIT: Also. Whether they "Support" piracy or not, it is literally illegal to distribute what TX is distributing and Atmosphere does not want to get in trouble... Even if they were the king pins of illegal counterfeiting and such.
    EDIT 2: XD To make it a bit more clear, what I'm trying to say is Atmosphere is not distributing it NOT ENTIRELY because they don't support piracy... Because it's impossible to distribute it whether they really wanted to or not. (Without lawsuits.)
    A.K.A. everyone who said XCI "Will be used for piracy" is not entire correct because it is piracy BEFORE anyone even gets the software.
     
    Last edited by Grmmish, May 14, 2019
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