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The National Walkout - Your Thoughts?

TotalInsanity4

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it means nothing because there is no such thing
it's a trick
criminals do not follow laws ,
all gun control is just to criminalize people
and a step toward total disarmament
a step closer to giving the state a total monopoly on violence
Ah... Hm... "Common sense gun laws" apply to the people who SELL the guns, not the people who wish to receive them... It would involve a serial number registry and banning people with histories of domestic abuse from gun ownership, for instance, as well as closing the gun show loophole
 

Hanafuda

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I kind of agree, but we shouldn't HAVE to. Plus, that hinders senior release, which would be a drag


I'm not concerned about whether some sensible security would be a drag. But I agree 100% that we shouldn't have to make our schools that secure, just that it seems kinda foolish that nobody talks much about it (or they go to the stupid extreme of wanting to arm teachers, instead of just locking the damn doors). An ounce of prevention and all that. This school shooting thing is a created phenomenon though, from media hype and other factors. I went to high school in the 80's, and it was common for guys to have rifles hanging in the back windows of their trucks at school, especially during hunting season. Nobody shot up the schools or even thought of it. And it wasn't for lack of weapon availability (the 'scares' we had back then were the occasional bomb threat, which usually coincided with a big test about to happen). Gun violence in the US peaked in the early 90's, but the school shooting thing has become a thing since the 90's. Thank CNN for the sensationalism. And maybe SSRI's.


banning people with histories of domestic abuse from gun ownership

We already have that.
 
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weatMod

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Ah... Hm... "Common sense gun laws" apply to the people who SELL the guns, not the people who wish to receive them... It would involve a serial number registry and banning people with histories of domestic abuse from gun ownership, for instance, as well as closing the gun show loophole
LOL yeah ok
you do know we have a little thing ehere called the black market right?
gun control is a scam for the same reason drug prohibition is a scam
registration leads to confiscation

ALL of it is just meant to bring society one step closer to giving links related a total monopoly

 
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DeslotlCL

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LOL yeah ok
you do know we have a little thing ehere called the black market right?
gun control is a scam for the same reason drug prohibition is a scam
registration leads to confiscation

ALL of it is just meant to bring society one step closer to giving links related a total monopoly


Gun control a scam??? sure dude, sure...
But in our country civilians dont need guns and no tragedy related to guns such as mass shootings neither on schools or any other part of our cities have happened thus far. So, who of the two countries is the one with problems? The one who praise guns as their gods, or the one who really dont need them?
 
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weatMod

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imageedit_6592_2968160107_720.jpg
 
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TotalInsanity4

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We already have that.
Correct, to a fault. There are two loopholes that excuse that though; a) the infamous "gun show loophole" (private sellers don't have to do background checks or keep papers on ownership change), and b) the "boyfriend loophole" (law defines "domestic abuse" as abuse that happens between two people who are married, live together, and/or have a child together. It has virtually nothing on sadistic behavior towards animals, siblings, parents, friends, or significant others that they don't live with)
LOL yeah ok
you do know we have a little thing ehere called the black market right?
gun control is a scam for the same reason drug prohibition is a scam
registration leads to confiscation

ALL of it is just meant to bring society one step closer to giving links related a total monopoly


Ok... look at it this way... gun regulation keeps the average layperson away from weapons, and someone who is actively seeking out an illegal weapon is a pretty easy target for law enforcement. Guns, in the context of what would be available on whatever black market might spring up, are EXCLUSIVELY a tool used for killing, and the effort that would go into tracking a dealer down and arranging a sale would be enough to deter most of the population.

I'm also amused by your line "registration leads to confiscation." You don't see driver's licenses revoked on a large scale on a whim by police officers (except in the case of police abusing their power, which is currently a HUGE issue in America; incidentally, completely separate from issue of restricting gun ownership)

Also, if that black market argument held ANY water, I'd like to ask you this; why is it that we don't see more violet/mass crime committed with fully automatic weaponry and rocket propelled grenade launchers, for instance? Virtually every mass shooting that has occurred within the last few years have been committed by people who either obtained their weapon legally, or stole them directly from someone who did.

As for the media you linked, it's unreasonable for you to expect anyone here to watch "Hood Life Volume 3". It's over 90 minutes long, for fuck's sake. In regards to the other one, though, that goes back to lack of accountability on police officers' part and a power imbalance that is currently unregulated

My friend tells me to ask if you're Christian, guess he has a line of thought he'd like to add
He also said (incredibly sarcastically) "OooOOOoooh what's so bad about a government monopoly? What're they gonna do, give ya better health care? Know what blood type you are? It's almost like they're gonna know it was you if you commit a crime!"

"Ban all guns" is an oversimplification of the issue and completely out of the scope of what was initially argued. You're reaching too hard, don't use memes to try to argue your point
 
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kuwanger

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This school shooting thing is a created phenomenon though, from media hype and other factors. I went to high school in the 80's, and it was common for guys to have rifles hanging in the back windows of their trucks at school, especially during hunting season. Nobody shot up the schools or even thought of it.

List of school shottings in the US So, not really true that nobody shot up schools or even thought of it. What' happened in the late 90s was (1) there was a school shooting where several people died at once, (2) it was a clearly coordinated attack with multiple people, and (3) there was a 24 hour news cycle that kept tried to cover every possible angle for every bit of sensationalism. Like you say, this then created the phenomenon of mass school shootings even though they were a thing of the past.

Also, I very much doubt that list is at all inclusive, especially when you get further back than the 60s. Why? Because before then you didn't have news reporters that could beam a video broadcast of a story to the whole nation within a day or two of an event. So, most stories were in the local/state news and that's it.

Fast forward to today, and everything can get amplified. Crime rates going down? People don't believe it because we have instant access to the worst events in the country. Mayberry wasn't a carefree little hamlet. In Mayberry there were rapes and murders. On a per capita basis, it's probably around the same rate as any city. Of course, rural towns don't want to advertise those things, especially if a local official was involved, and it's a lot easier to hush up about it--especially in the past.

So, while I don't entirely disagree about the sentiment at some level that mass school shootings are a new thing, in a lot of ways they aren't. We're just a lot more aware of them. Maybe that awareness makes some would-be killers more apt to engage in something they only fantasized about. Certainly if they know they can get the means to do it because laws are lax, they're inclined to do it even if they never go through with it.

@weatMod - So, yea, that's a stupid argument. The reason to legalize drugs is that, at least directly, drugs only harm the user. Indirectly it can harm people in the same way guns can--which is an argument to ban harder drugs. Then again, this was the main argument to banning alcohol--people blamed the drink instead of the drinker who chose to keep drinking and beating his wife.

The other point is that people will keep buying drugs even if they're banned because they consume them on a regular basis and it makes them happy/less-sad. The same really can't be said for banned guns except in very isolated cases--die hard collectors and the like. Practically, though, drugs and guns alike can be accidentally used and harm others, which is why most drugs require prescriptions. One could argue that this recognition of the danger of drugs and their misuse would be good reason to have similar rules on guns as well as potential standards on banning some because they're too dangerous.

In the end, it's not about the notion that criminals won't get access to drugs/guns even if they're banned but to make them sufficiently hard to get and sufficiently taboo that people won't want to get them. It obviously works to various degrees with it working pretty horribly with marijuana. It's why if they banned all guns, then people would have the same reaction to the war on drugs: lots of effective resistance to the law and a general lack of respect for it.

Of course, there's always people extreme enough that they want all of both or all of one and the other banned. So, *shrug*.
 

weatMod

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Correct, to a fault. There are two loopholes that excuse that though; a) the infamous "gun show loophole" (private sellers don't have to do background checks or keep papers on ownership change), and b) the "boyfriend loophole" (law defines "domestic abuse" as abuse that happens between two people who are married, live together, and/or have a child together. It has virtually nothing on sadistic behavior towards animals, siblings, parents, friends, or significant others that they don't live with)

Ok... look at it this way... gun regulation keeps the average layperson away from weapons, and someone who is actively seeking out an illegal weapon is a pretty easy target for law enforcement. Guns, in the context of what would be available on whatever black market might spring up, are EXCLUSIVELY a tool used for killing, and the effort that would go into tracking a dealer down and arranging a sale would be enough to deter most of the population.

I'm also amused by your line "registration leads to confiscation." You don't see driver's licenses revoked on a large scale on a whim by police officers (except in the case of police abusing their power, which is currently a HUGE issue in America; incidentally, completely separate from issue of restricting gun ownership)

Also, if that black market argument held ANY water, I'd like to ask you this; why is it that we don't see more violet/mass crime committed with fully automatic weaponry and rocket propelled grenade launchers, for instance? Virtually every mass shooting that has occurred within the last few years have been committed by people who either obtained their weapon legally, or stole them directly from someone who did.

As for the media you linked, it's unreasonable for you to expect anyone here to watch "Hood Life Volume 3". It's over 90 minutes long, for fuck's sake. In regards to the other one, though, that goes back to lack of accountability on police officers' part and a power imbalance that is currently unregulated

My friend tells me to ask if you're Christian, guess he has a line of thought he'd like to add
He also said (incredibly sarcastically) "OooOOOoooh what's so bad about a government monopoly? What're they gonna do, give ya better health care? Know what blood type you are? It's almost like they're gonna know it was you if you commit a crime!"


"Ban all guns" is an oversimplification of the issue and completely out of the scope of what was initially argued. You're reaching too hard, don't use memes to try to argue your point
"Virtually every mass shooting that has occurred within the last few years have been committed by people who either obtained their weapon legally, or stole them directly from someone who did."

who cares about "mass shootings" they are an incredibly trivial number
in the scheme of gun related crime statistics

"I'm also amused by your line "registration leads to confiscation." You don't see driver's licenses revoked on a large scale on a whim by police officers"

because their road piracy depends on you driving , it's a revenue stream guns are not

"As for the media you linked, it's unreasonable for you to expect anyone here to watch "Hood Life Volume 3". It's over 90 minutes long, for fuck's sake."

i was just going to post the trailer, but you really only need to watch the 1st minute or 2 to get the jist of it

"also, if that black market argument held ANY water, I'd like to ask you this; why is it that we don't see more violet/mass crime committed with fully automatic weaponry and rocket propelled grenade launchers, for instance? "


if prohibition works then how come i could get a bag of anything delivered to my door in 20 minutes

also proportionality , not all criminals are muppets

 
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Hanafuda

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Correct, to a fault. There are two loopholes that excuse that though; a) the infamous "gun show loophole" (private sellers don't have to do background checks or keep papers on ownership change), and b) the "boyfriend loophole" (law defines "domestic abuse" as abuse that happens between two people who are married, live together, and/or have a child together. It has virtually nothing on sadistic behavior towards animals, siblings, parents, friends, or significant others that they don't live with)


That's entirely dependent on how state law defines it. In my state, domestic violence means against a "family or household member," which is defined as:

persons who:

(1) Are or were married to each other;

(2) Are or were living together as spouses;

(3) Are or were sexual or intimate partners;

(4) Are or were dating: Provided, That a casual acquaintance or ordinary fraternization between persons in a business or social context does not establish a dating relationship;

(5) Are or were residing together in the same household;

(6) Have a child in common regardless of whether they have ever married or lived together;

(7) Have the following relationships to another person:

(A) Parent;

(B) Stepparent;

(C) Brother or sister;

(D) Half-brother or half-sister;

(E) Stepbrother or stepsister;

(F) Father-in-law or mother-in-law;

(G) Stepfather-in-law or stepmother-in-law;

(H) Child or stepchild;

(I) Daughter-in-law or son-in-law;

(J) Stepdaughter-in-law or stepson-in-law;

(K) Grandparent;

(L) Step grandparent;

(M) Aunt, aunt-in-law or step aunt;

(N) Uncle, uncle-in-law or step uncle;

(O) Niece or nephew;

(P) First or second cousin


Which is obviously quite broad. Any conviction for domestic assault or battery (assault = create apprehension of immediate harm, battery = actual contact) will result in triggering the Lautenberg amendment Federal prohibition. If your state doesn't define domestic violence this broadly, then that's your local issue but I suggest you check before assuming. The Federal law does have this covered though - conviction for domestic violence means banned.
 

invaderyoyo

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Even if the students were just doing it to skip school, it is bringing attention to the issue so it's fine.

They really should make gun licenses like car licenses. The problem is a lot of people are just unreasonable. They're paranoid that their guns will be taken away.

One argument I see repeatedly is that criminals don't follow laws so it doesn't matter, but that's basically arguing that there should be no laws, which is ridiculous.
 
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Even if the students were just doing it to skip school, it is bringing attention to the issue so it's fine.

They really should make gun licenses like car licenses. The problem is a lot of people are just unreasonable. They're paranoid that their guns will be taken away.

One argument I see repeatedly is that criminals don't follow laws so it doesn't matter, but that's basically arguing that there should be no laws, which is ridiculous.
oh hey another person with some common sense. Glad to know I'm not alone
 
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TotalInsanity4

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"Virtually every mass shooting that has occurred within the last few years have been committed by people who either obtained their weapon legally, or stole them directly from someone who did."

who cares about "mass shootings" they are an incredibly trivial number
in the scheme of gun related crime statistics
I just crunched the numbers, and there have been 231 casualties related to a mass shooting this year alone. While, yes, this is a very low percentage compared to the ~8,000 casualties so far, it's also not a number to balk at. Plus, I included that piece of information because it's what I could relay off of my head. In addendum, illegal weaponry used in large urban areas (i.e. Chicago) are 100% of the time taken from neighboring states where they were sold legally. A federal level regulatory body would eliminate that.

"I'm also amused by your line "registration leads to confiscation." You don't see driver's licenses revoked on a large scale on a whim by police officers"

because their road piracy depends on you driving , it's a revenue stream guns are not
No it's not. That's not at all how it works. There is no "quota" that police have to meet in regards to people driving, and even if you do get pulled over you can usually get out of a ticket by acting confident. YES, SOME cops are corrupt and will try to pocket money on the side from raids; these typically occur in areas where drug usage or homelessness is high, and they use that as an excuse to say they had "reasonable suspicion" to search and confiscate anything on a person

But again, this is only tangentially related to the matter at hand...

"also, if that black market argument held ANY water, I'd like to ask you this; why is it that we don't see more violet/mass crime committed with fully automatic weaponry and rocket propelled grenade launchers, for instance? "

if prohibition works then how come i could get a bag of anything delivered to my door in 20 minutes
Drugs are easy to grow and refine relatively discretely in someone's home or garage. I DARE you to start a smelting operation that allows for the pinpoint tolerances required for a firearm to operate correctly, LET ALONE at a rapid rate of fire. Drugs can be imported from anywhere. Realistically, guns can only be taken from locations where it is legally to manufacture them.
 

weatMod

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I just crunched the numbers, and there have been 231 casualties related to a mass shooting this year alone. While, yes, this is a very low percentage compared to the ~8,000 casualties so far, it's also not a number to balk at. Plus, I included that piece of information because it's what I could relay off of my head. In addendum, illegal weaponry used in large urban areas (i.e. Chicago) are 100% of the time taken from neighboring states where they were sold legally. A federal level regulatory body would eliminate that.


No it's not. That's not at all how it works. There is no "quota" that police have to meet in regards to people driving, and even if you do get pulled over you can usually get out of a ticket by acting confident. YES, SOME cops are corrupt and will try to pocket money on the side from raids; these typically occur in areas where drug usage or homelessness is high, and they use that as an excuse to say they had "reasonable suspicion" to search and confiscate anything on a person

But again, this is only tangentially related to the matter at hand...


Drugs are easy to grow and refine relatively discretely in someone's home or garage. I DARE you to start a smelting operation that allows for the pinpoint tolerances required for a firearm to operate correctly, LET ALONE at a rapid rate of fire. Drugs can be imported from anywhere. Realistically, guns can only be taken from locations where it is legally to manufacture them.

"Drugs are easy to grow and refine relatively discretely in someone's home or garage. I DARE you to start a smelting operation that allows for the pinpoint tolerances required for a firearm to operate correctly, LET ALONE at a rapid rate of fire. Drugs can be imported from anywhere. Realistically, guns can only be taken from locations where it is legally to manufacture them"
what LOL
no not true at all , yes MJ and psilocybin is easy to grow at home
other drugs not so much
you would need a shit ton of land to grow coca or poppies and watched chemicals to refine them .solvent ,acetic anhydride, etc. not to mention a lab and equipment, totally cost prohibitive that is why drug come from certain regions , oh and not to mention climate
you could never grow enough poppy or coca indoors to make it feasible or even outdoors , unless you are in colombia or afghanistan

on the other hand guns can be very easily made at home thanks to 3D printing and CNC machines

 
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"Drugs are easy to grow and refine relatively discretely in someone's home or garage. I DARE you to start a smelting operation that allows for the pinpoint tolerances required for a firearm to operate correctly, LET ALONE at a rapid rate of fire. Drugs can be imported from anywhere. Realistically, guns can only be taken from locations where it is legally to manufacture them"
what LOL
no not true at all , yes MJ and psilocybin is easy to grow at home
other drugs not so much
you would need a shit ton of land to grow coca or poppies and watched chemicals to refine them .solvent ,acetic anhydride, etc. not to mention a lab and equipment, totally cost prohibitive that is why drug come from certain regions , oh and not to mention climate
you could never grow enough poppy or coca indoors to make it feasible or even outdoors , unless you are in colombia or afghanistan

on the other hand guns can be very easily made at home thanks to 3D printing and CNC machines


But not everyone can easily afford the equipment to have a 3d printer. With drugs, the dependencies are less demanding... usually meaning gun creation is harder to do than lets say getting some sort of drug crop grown
 
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weatMod

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But not everyone can easily afford the equipment to have a 3d printer. With drugs, the dependencies are less demanding... usually meaning gun creation is harder to do than lets say getting some sort of drug crop grown
no it is really cheap to get a CNC machine
or even a 3d printer it is astronomically cost prohibitive to make hard drugs in any significant quantity
why do you think they are imported and not produced domestically , the cartel would make them here if they could
 
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TotalInsanity4

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You're still failing to recognize that you need equipment that takes space and time to complete a job, and the materials to churn these things out. There are lots of things that would put authorities on your trail much sooner than a drug operation

Plus I wouldn't trust a 3D printed gun to NOT jam up and/or blow up in my face. CNC machined I suppose would have the required tolerance capabilities for the required materials, I hadn't thought about that. I still hold fast that it is much harder to transport illegal weaponry than it is to transport illegal drugs, though

Edit: Wait, how the hell did the guy thread the inside of the barrel? That's crucial to accuracy and I'm 512% certain that a CNC machine alone isn't capable of drilling inside the barrel like that, and humans can't be trusted to reliably reproduce prefect threading
 
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weatMod

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i don't know i am no expert but i do know that is possible and that it is far easier to produce than drugs
and less risky to transport as well , dogs can't differentiate between the smell of metal or plastic because it is in the shape of a a gun

but all of this doe snot matter because prohibition does not work period
even there were no 3D printers or CNC machines they would still be easy to get
just like drugs ,
and if someone want to do a mass killing they can just get behind the wheel of and SUV and mow down 17 people with no problem
maybe put some sharpened wood or metal stakes or tines sticking out of the grill to impale pepople
or they could just make a bomb out of thousands of easily obtainable household materials ,solodiox , propane tanks , peroxide the list goes on and on
 
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SG854

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Basically ban guns because there are nut cases out there who have to ruin it for everyone.
We are all punished because idiots irresponsible use them. Nice going assholes. For the people that use it responsibly as self defense well too bad.

Pretty soon driving cars will be banned too because idiots drive drunk. With self learning AI and self driving cars that perform much better than a human can, pretty soon people will protest banning driving, since car crashes are the number 4 top killer, and have cars drive themselves instead without human input. I can imagine people protesting in front of the white house to ban drivers license. And people in retaliation responding, "cars don't kill people, people kill people." Way to go to take the fun out of driving.
 
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TotalInsanity4

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i don't know i am no expert but i do know that is possible and that it is far easier to produce than drugs
and less risky to transport as well , dogs can't differentiate between the smell of metal or plastic because it is in the shape of a a gun
There's very rarely such a thing as a "random search," in terms of finding a gun, a human officer is going to be better at locating one than a sniffer dog would be. In either situation, though, you would have had to have fucked up bad enough for said officer to be alerted to the potential that you're doing something potentially illegal

but all of this doe snot matter because prohibition does not work period
even there were no 3D printers or CNC machines they would still be easy to get
Tell that to quite literally every other developed nation on earth. Prohibition DOES work, but before it can be enacted the thing you're prohibiting has to be so culturally unacceptable that even the contrarians wouldn't want to get on the "bandwagon" before you prohibit it. But again, we're looping back to the whole "restrictions =/= total ban." Good lord I need to stop letting you pull me into that one

and if someone want to do a mass killing they can just get behind the wheel of and SUV and mow down 17 people with no problem
maybe put some sharpened wood or metal stakes or tines sticking out of the grill to impale pepople
or they could just make a bomb out of thousands of easily obtainable household materials , solodiox , propane tanks , peroxide the list goes on and on
The "household bomb" thing is pretty non-sequitur... you can kill people with quite literally anything, including a shard of glass if you're creative and determined enough. What it really comes down to is what the intended purpose of the product actually is, and whether that outweighs potential harm. Plus there's a reasonable amount of effort has to go into crafting any kind of explosive without blowing your hands off. The same can be said about the car thing, with the addition of the fact that given ideal circumstances you could dodge a car with relative ease, whereas unless you're Thomas Anderson I doubt you could dodge a bullet.

On top of that, that's, again, not what the purpose of the discussion is. Are there other ways to harm people? Yeah. Are guns a uniquely suitable method of harming people? Yeah. Are guns sorely under-regulated in the US, especially compared to other countries? Yeah. That's what the current discussion is.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Basically ban guns because there are nut cases out there who have to ruin it for everyone.
We are all punished because idiots irresponsible use them. Nice going assholes. For the people that use it responsibly as self defense well too bad.

Pretty soon driving cars will be banned too because idiots drive drunk. With self learning AI and self driving cars that perform much better than a human can, pretty soon people will protest banning driving, since car crashes are the number 4 top killer, and have cars drive themselves instead without human input. I can imagine people protesting in front of the white house to ban drivers license. And people in retaliation responding, "cars don't kill people, people kill people." Way to go to take the fun out of driving.
Think to yourself: Do other people have the right to kill you? If they do, your ideas of the use of self-defense and the use of firearms might be justified. But if they don't, you might want to consider how fair it is that a) you're directly overstepping that right for others by threatening lethal self-defense measures, and b) you're directly feeding into the fear that there's need for potentially lethal self-defense by carrying a lethal object yourself (i.e. mini arms race)
 
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