The Illogicality of Jehovah's Witnesses

smf

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Did she mentioned something like: "I didn't wanted to be all alone with a guy" :unsure:

If she did... then we probably dated the same chick!


Ah... no...
I might have higher standards ;-)

I can't actually remember, 2 fast 2 furious was the movie we went to. So 19 years ago...
 
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tabzer

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It is irrational, because it's faith. Isn't that the whole point?

I'm sure that people don't say,"hey, I am going to place my faith into something because it is irrational." Even if they do, it's probably for the sense of euphoria that comes with not giving a fuck. Even then, there is a cause.

You're arguing that something is rational when it isn't. If you are going to do that, you must show how it's rational, and that's going to require you to provide evidence that a god exists (if we're talking about theistic religious beliefs). It isn't rocket science.

Until you can do that, I'm justified in saying religions are irrational.

No I'm not. I'm saying irrational things don't actually exist. Religions exist. Ideas exist. People don't do things for no reason. For some people, believing in "a higher power" is a form of rationalization. Since you are larping as a robot, it's impossible for you to be in that situation or even empathize with it.
 

Lacius

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I'm sure that people don't say,"hey, I am going to place my faith into something because it is irrational." Even if they do, it's probably for the sense of euphoria that comes with not giving a fuck. Even then, there is a cause.
People generally claim their beliefs are rational, even when they aren't. What matters is whether or not a belief is rational, not whether or not they claim it's rational.

No I'm not. I'm saying irrational things don't actually exist. Religions exist. Ideas exist. People don't do things for no reason. For some people, believing in "a higher power" is a form of rationalization.
Religions exist. Lots of irrational beliefs exist. That doesn't make them rational. Believing in a "higher power" is not rational if there's no evidence for that higher power's existence.
 

smf

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I'm sure that people don't say,"hey, I am going to place my faith into something because it is irrational." Even if they do, it's probably for the sense of euphoria that comes with not giving a fuck. Even then, there is a cause.
How would someone know they were experiencing irrational thoughts?

Justifying something to yourself doesn't make it rational
 

tabzer

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How would someone know they were experiencing irrational thoughts?

Justifying something to yourself doesn't make it rational
Thinking is the act of rationalization. Justifying something is synonymous to rationalizing.
 

Viri

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When ever I see or hear about a Jehovah's Witness, I think of this.


Also, the person who was at Al Bundy's door was Homer Simpson.
 
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Lacius

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bro this is a fucking videogame forum stfu with your personal issues
There are subforums here for things that aren't about video games, including the one you currently find yourself in. If you don't want to pay attention to it, you don't have to. You can even remove it from your feed.

If we want to talk about things you shouldn't be doing on a forum, we could talk about how your post doesn't contribute anything meaningful to the conversation, or we could talk about your double posting. :wink:

Thinking is the act of rationalization. Justifying something is synonymous to rationalizing.
To be clear, when we talk about something being rational, we don't just mean someone has thought about it. We mean it's logically sound. For something to be logically sound, the conclusions must logically follow the premises, and the premises must be demonstrably true.

Religious beliefs are irrational, meaning they are not logically sound. If a person cares more about the truthfulness of a claim than the claim itself, then that person cannot believe those arguments if they are not logically sound.
 

GeekyGuy

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I'd just like to post this thread as my parents and sisters (no, I don't have a brother) are JWs and what they do and what they stand for doesn't make much sense.

Here's a documentary of JW:


Now, what do I mean by "illogical," you may ask?

- "All men are evil" but the ones in charge of JW are men

- "Jehovah will kill all nonbelievers" the "God" they made up isn't very loving (but think he is)

- "Jehovah" they use His name in almost every sentence and think of Him as a "friend" or an imaginary friend

- "Homosexuality is bad" but they still pretend they welcome everyone

- They tend to use insulting terms for non-JW followers which shows they don't respect others if they're not part of JW

- They don't celebrate Christmas despite being a Christian religion

- They don't celebrate Birthdays, but they celebrate New Year (until they ban this too)

- They've said Armageddon was coming in 1914 and 1918, yet here we are

- They see their sect/cult/religion as the "true" one and all others are fake

- If the Armageddon is coming then why do they have billions of dollars?

- If a JW person is in a relationship with a non-JW, then they're "doomed" to this world

...

This could go on and on. My point is, I believe there's a God / Superior Being who created the world, but it ain't how the JWs describe it as. Furthermore, no one alive truly knows and the closest "evidence" are Bibles which I wouldn't trust to be the truth.
Not gonna watch the "documentary," and if it is the source of the information you've presented, then I recommend going to the actual source -- The Jehovah's Witnesses.

As someone who grew up as a Jehovah's Witness (though no longer one for decades now), I will try to offer my understanding of the Jehovah's Witness organization:

  • I remember them using the term "imperfect" for all men (except Adam, Eve, and Jesus), not "evil," and the use of the term "men" as a generalization for mankind.
  • No, that is not my understanding. Non-believers will not be resurrected, nor will they be saved during "the last days."
  • Okay.
  • They see homosexuality as sinful, and yes, they do welcome everyone to find "the Truth."
  • Incorrect.
  • They don't celebrate Christmas for two reasons: it is based on a pagan holiday, and based on the description given in the Bible of the locale and animals out in the fields and such, they believe Jesus was born in a warmer time of the year.
  • They don't celebrate birthdays, correct. They don't celebrate New Years, so that is incorrect.
  • No. They believe that 1914 was the cut-off year for "the Annointed Ones," those believers who will live in heaven. Other believers will live again on earth as perfect human beings.
  • Others as fake? No, I would say they see those other religions as flawed.
  • Billions of dollars? I have no idea.
  • No, they don't teach or profess that. They discourage witnesses from entering into new, intimate relationships with non-believers, but encourage witnesses to always strive to make their existing relationships fruitful and healthy.
Lastly, I would like to add my personal opinion. Logical? Belief, in many ways, seems to defy logic. In any faith.

Hope this helps.
 

lafleche

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Why believe in a God or some other almighty being who takes care of you, when it let's things like cancer, ms, dementia exists.... War, hunger, extinction of animals... Yes I know the last ones are men made but as a good father or mother of his/her children and being onmipotent some intervention is expected.

So no: God is a fairy tale created by men who wants to rule and take control over the masses. Luckily I can not get burned anymore.
 
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tabzer

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There are subforums here for things that aren't about video games, including the one you currently find yourself in. If you don't want to pay attention to it, you don't have to. You can even remove it from your feed.

If we want to talk about things you shouldn't be doing on a forum, we could talk about how your post doesn't contribute anything meaningful to the conversation, or we could talk about your double posting. :wink:


To be clear, when we talk about something being rational, we don't just mean someone has thought about it. We mean it's logically sound. For something to be logically sound, the conclusions must logically follow the premises, and the premises must be demonstrably true.

Religious beliefs are irrational, meaning they are not logically sound. If a person cares more about the truthfulness of a claim than the claim itself, then that person cannot believe those arguments if they are not logically sound.
Religions don't exist in vacuum. The conclusion that religions aren't logically sound isn't logically sound. You pretty much see what you want, and if you think that all religions have a centralized authority that perpetuates an immutable belief, then it could be said that you are "closer to god" than most.
 

september796

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I know some close people who are JWs that have tried to convert me in the past.. and failed, but I'm very politely so I have listened to them patiently and even have taken the time to read A LOT of their stuff in their website. But in fairness I can say that most of what's in the OP is wrong. Morally speaking, I think their doctrine is not illogical but actually quite logical and similar to other religions, only somewhat more rigorous. But I wouldnt classify them as Christian though and here is my biggest disagreement with them: they have changed some of the lore, for instance by saying Jesus is not god only Jehovah is and things like that.
I can understand about Jehovah (And/ or YHWH).. it's the "witnesses" part that i don't understand, like what did they "witness" exactly?
the name "witnesses" is taken from a psalm.
 
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smf

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Thinking is the act of rationalization. Justifying something is synonymous to rationalizing.
Just because you can rationalize something, doesn't make it rational.

Otherwise it would be impossible to be irrational.

In fact rationalizing is more often than not the opposite of rational, as you are having to attempt to construct reasons to justify your thought to make it appear rational when it is very likely not. Usually, if something is rational, then you don't need to rationalize it.

rationalize: attempt to explain or justify (behaviour or an attitude) with logical reasons, even if these are not appropriate.

The conclusion that religions aren't logically sound isn't logically sound.
Your conclusion isn't logically sound, you've based it on emotion & not logic.

What I don't get is why you need religion to be logical, god moves in mysterious ways after all. Which human logic is unable to comprehend. As religions were made up to cope with the unknown, then why can't the great unknown be why you believe?

Being rational isn't a guarantee of success either. That doesn't mean that it's rational to be irrational, but it can be beneficial.
 
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Lacius

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The conclusion that religions aren't logically sound isn't logically sound.
Yes, it is. Rejection of a religious claim that isn't supported by evidence is literally the only sound and reasonable position to take.

When someone makes a claim, it has a burden of proof. If that burden of proof hasn't been met, the claim must be rejected if one cares if their beliefs are true.

You pretty much see what you want
No, my beliefs are based on whether or not there's evidence, not whether or not it's what I "want." If my beliefs were based on what I "what," I'd believe all sorts of untrue things.

if you think that all religions have a centralized authority that perpetuates an immutable belief
I didn't make this claim.

Why believe in a God or some other almighty being who takes care of you, when it let's things like cancer, ms, dementia exists.... War, hunger, extinction of animals... Yes I know the last ones are men made but as a good father or mother of his/her children and being onmipotent some intervention is expected.

So no: God is a fairy tale created by men who wants to rule and take control over the masses. Luckily I can not get burned anymore.
A lot of bad things exist in our world. That means that a god either doesn't want to help, or can't. Either one makes the god undeserving of worship if it exists.
 

UltraDolphinRevolution

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This could go on and on. My point is, I believe there's a God / Superior Being who created the world, but it ain't how the JWs describe it as. Furthermore, no one alive truly knows and the closest "evidence" are Bibles which I wouldn't trust to be the truth.
I am not a JW, but I can play devil´s advocate and defend them. I suspect a colleague of mine is a JW, but I have never asked him.

- "All men are evil" but the ones in charge of JW are men
I think men here refers to men and women (after all: WOmen are also MEN) and human nature.
- "Jehovah will kill all nonbelievers" the "God" they made up isn't very loving (but think he is)
Same as in all Abrahamic religions, loving in the sense of forgiving if you follow them. A marketing trick.
- "Jehovah" they use His name in almost every sentence and think of Him as a "friend" or an imaginary friend
Same in all Abrahamic religions; assuming there is a mind behind everything is an evolutionary adaption. Those who thought the noise they just heard was just the wind, were eaten by tigers. The extreme version is schizophrenia.
- "Homosexuality is bad" but they still pretend they welcome everyone
They assume it is not an identity but a chose lifestyle. So they welcome homosexuals as long as they do not practice their inclinations
- They don't celebrate Christmas despite being a Christian religion
Due to its pagan origins.
- They've said Armageddon was coming in 1914 and 1918, yet here we are
Jesus was expecting to live in the end times, so did his followers. Here we are 2000 years later.
-They see their sect/cult/religion as the "true" one and all others are fake
Monotheism
- If a JW person is in a relationship with a non-JW, then they're "doomed" to this world
None of the Abrahamic religions welcome it. Jews and JW might be the strictest in this regard. Islam allows Muslim men to marry women of the people of the book (Jews/Christians).
 

Dr_Faustus

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Why believe in a God or some other almighty being who takes care of you, when it let's things like cancer, ms, dementia exists.... War, hunger, extinction of animals... Yes I know the last ones are men made but as a good father or mother of his/her children and being onmipotent some intervention is expected.

So no: God is a fairy tale created by men who wants to rule and take control over the masses. Luckily I can not get burned anymore.
In the same way that one could denounce all religions based on their atheism I can basically do the same to denounce their system of belief only based on the fact that their truth is no absolute greater than other (older) religions.

Honestly I find atheism to exist on the same coin as most religions. Absence of proof of God or the afterlife is still a belief that you want to preach and argue about. Its the same concept of self satisfactory ego stroking you get regardless of which system of belief you fall into.

The path of clarity has no determinate on truth. Because the ultimate truth is we simply do not know of the existence of these things beyond our limited corporeal state of being. Those who claim to are only acting in their beliefs, in what they find themselves in or are brought into believing. The structure of faith is manipulated, originally meant for a peace of mind that is nigh-obtainable but now is used as a form of transaction between peace and duty in the form of following. The older faiths are harder to despite given their age and formation but the newer faiths of recent can easily be tracked to their origins and be broken down as the falsehood that they pretend to operate as a religion. These newer structures only shine light on how problematic the older faiths have been as these newer faiths take the original concept and take it into cult like directions.


With that said, and dismissing the newer faiths. I personally exist seeing both sides of the coin and coming to the conclusion that there is no whole truth that we will ever reach with absolute fact. Probably never in our lifetimes at least. With that there is a peace in being open minded about interpretations of faith but not letting it control your life or deciding factors for things. After all religion should not have that much personal rule over one's life. It should be about how one lives their best life doing the right things for themselves and for others. Once that deviates into control, or screwing over others because its fine to believe so, then that all falls apart.
 

Lacius

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In the same way that one could denounce all religions based on their atheism I can basically do the same to denounce their system of belief only based on the fact that their truth is no absolute greater than other (older) religions.

Honestly I find atheism to exist on the same coin as most religions. Absence of proof of God or the afterlife is still a belief that you want to preach and argue about. Its the same concept of self satisfactory ego stroking you get regardless of which system of belief you fall into.

The path of clarity has no determinate on truth. Because the ultimate truth is we simply do not know of the existence of these things beyond our limited corporeal state of being. Those who claim to are only acting in their beliefs, in what they find themselves in or are brought into believing. The structure of faith is manipulated, originally meant for a peace of mind that is nigh-obtainable but now is used as a form of transaction between peace and duty in the form of following. The older faiths are harder to despite given their age and formation but the newer faiths of recent can easily be tracked to their origins and be broken down as the falsehood that they pretend to operate as a religion. These newer structures only shine light on how problematic the older faiths have been as these newer faiths take the original concept and take it into cult like directions.


With that said, and dismissing the newer faiths. I personally exist seeing both sides of the coin and coming to the conclusion that there is no whole truth that we will ever reach with absolute fact. Probably never in our lifetimes at least. With that there is a peace in being open minded about interpretations of faith but not letting it control your life or deciding factors for things. After all religion should not have that much personal rule over one's life. It should be about how one lives their best life doing the right things for themselves and for others. Once that deviates into control, or screwing over others because its fine to believe so, then that all falls apart.
Most atheists reject religious claims because those claims have not met their burdens of proof. Atheism is not a positive claim, and it isn't a "belief."

I don't believe in magical pixies that live in my computer case and cause every typo I seemingly make, and the reason why is because there's no evidence for the existence of those pixies. I have a feeling you also don't believe those pixies exist, and I have a feeling that it's also because there's no evidence demonstrating the existence of those pixies. Believing in the pixies and not believing in the pixies are not comparable positions: One is rational, and the other is not.

Atheism is the same way.
 
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